Desert Storm???

Hey guys, I was on KS forums and was reading some (very disputed) posted about Deserts and the THEORY that they grow slower or may not be good breeders (females). I did some asking around locally and I got mixed reviews from different breeders (large and small), but nothing really to sway my opinion one way or another.

I read the entire posting and there are some valid points on both side of the arguement. However, I feel it's too soon to make a decision for me whether or not i would be investing in a desert project.

I LOVE Deserts, but I can't afford them right now (and I want Phantoms :D). That is my main reason, but the post did make me question things for a minute there.

But then again, this could be like the whole Caramel rumor about the females not being able to lay eggs. But with Caramels I decided not to go with because of the kinking issues.

I just wanted to see what everyone thought about the conversation.

Someone on KS did say that he had successfully bred females, but I don't remember who it was.

Personally, I don't think Pro Exotics and other reputable breeders would be selling the females for full price if they were aware of any flaws in the genetics. Though, that doesn't mean that the flaws are absent...

A definitive answer to the question may have to wait a bit until the morph isn't so new.

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Originally Posted by spitzu

Someone on KS did say that he had successfully bred females, but I don't remember who it was.

Personally, I don't think Pro Exotics and other reputable breeders would be selling the females for full price if they were aware of any flaws in the genetics. Though, that doesn't mean that the flaws are absent...

A definitive answer to the question may have to wait a bit until the morph isn't so new.

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That is the way I'm leaning with waiting on more people to "risk" it (if any risk at all).

How long have deserts been around?

This thread from Jan 2008 has a pretty decent history. If the first deserts were imported in 2001 there should be enough data, I think, to give an answer about this. Maybe someone can ask Stan Chiras or Peter Kahl what they know?

What I don't "get" about the rumors is that I typically hear a line like "Desert females never get big enough to breed," but I've seen lots of pictures of BIG desert females that looked perfectly capable of breeding size-wise.

I think I read that Pro-Exotics did have one female get egg-bound and need to have the eggs aspirated and removed, but that could've been any morph; also seems like that would've been more of an issue of uterine tone than of size.

Basically, I'm nowhere near convinced that desert females have issues, based on the paucity of evidence one way or the other. (Not like the many pictures I've seen of caramel girls on slugs. :tears: Booh.)

It is pretty interesting that since the project started in 2001, that there hasn't been much info on a homozygous desert and what it may look like.

I've got a desert lemon blast, she's an 10' around 400 grams. Not the best feeder but she seems to be putting on weight. I guess I'll let you guys know as she grows :)

my desert butter from Brad Boa is a great feeder. She is a 10 and almost 500 gram. She is feeding on 1 or more ( if other didn't take their rat) small rat every 5 days.

She is so beautiful !

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Originally Posted by mc5guy

my desert butter from Brad Boa is a great feeder. She is a 10 and almost 500 gram. She is feeding on 1 or more ( if other didn't take their rat) small rat every 5 days.

She is so beautiful !

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Those pics you posted last month are what forced me to go buy my desert spider from Pro Exotics. I would have gotten a butter/lesser if they had one.

She is definitely beautiful! Post some more pictures with better/natural light please.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

It is pretty interesting that since the project started in 2001, that there hasn't been much info on a homozygous desert and what it may look like.

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When you think about how long it can take to prove animals out with only one founding animal, it really hasn't been around that long. I don't know if the original desert was a male or female, but if it was a female it could have taken anywhere from one to five years just to get the first clutch out of her depending on how old she was when she came in. It took SEVEN YEARS for VPI to get their first clutch from the burgundy albino.

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Originally Posted by spitzu

Someone on KS did say that he had successfully bred females, but I don't remember who it was.

Personally, I don't think Pro Exotics and other reputable breeders would be selling the females for full price if they were aware of any flaws in the genetics. Though, that doesn't mean that the flaws are absent...

A definitive answer to the question may have to wait a bit until the morph isn't so new.

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Robert Seib has produced two or so desert combo clutches, might be who you're referring to.. Great snakes, I have one his desert combo females, beautiful animal :)

Personally, I am waiting a while to get in on the deserts. I have no idea if there is any truth to the rumors about females producing, but that KS thread was definitely not the first time that I had heard about issues with the females. Either way, I would get a male first just so I could make more combos and recoup my initial investment faster.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

When you think about how long it can take to prove animals out with only one founding animal, it really hasn't been around that long. I don't know if the original desert was a male or female

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From what I've read, it was a male and produced soon after it was imported. No mention as to what sex the first offspring were, but there should be a decent number of desert females that are 5+ years old by now.

Multiple big breeders seem to like to take pictures/videos of new cool things. I would think that desert females on eggs would be one of those things you would want to take pictures/videos of.

If there were multiple pictures posted there wouldn't be any question. Since no one is posting any pictures, it leaves doubt.

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Both Stan Chiras and Peter Kahl, unbeknown to them, were working with two separate imported Desert balls lines at the time. It was first assumed that the desert morph was recessive, because they resembled the desert ghost mutation. While comparing breeding efforts, they later proved that the Desert gene was a simple co-dominant mutation. In theory, 50% of a clutch should be Deserts when bred to a normal phase ball python.

In conversation, Stan explained to me that the Desert ball appears to be somewhat of a dwarf sized ball python that will not bulk up in size as some balls do. The male Desert I had purchased from Stan resembled more a corn snake than a ball python at its yearling size. Stan insisted for me to pair him up with some select females this season. “He may be little, but he’ll do the job”, he assured me.

We can only imagine what a super desert would look like if it proves itself to exist this season. In the meantime, we are proud to work with our Chiras line Desert ball. One step closer, in our pursuit of the Desert Spider.

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Just found this little tidbit posted in 2009.

If I remember correctly, the orginal Desert animals were indeed small (as stated in the post above), but that subsequent generations of Deserts (F1, F2...) grew to normal Ball Python sizes. From what I've seen, read, and heard, I don't believe that there are any issues with female Deserts' reproduction.

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Originally Posted by JayCee

Just found this little tidbit posted in 2009.

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Well, it's in the air for me. I think I would be waiting this one out until it's proven false or not. It's interesting to watch to say the least.

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Originally Posted by fredanthony

Robert Seib has produced two or so desert combo clutches, might be who you're referring to.. Great snakes, I have one his desert combo females, beautiful animal :)

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Weight, age, and length on your female?

Very interesting thread. It has a familiar ring to it. BG really wishes he wasn't even looking at it, but apparently BG has been up to no good on this topic so it looks like he has no choice but to deal with it.

Here's a leeeetle FYI for everyone involved. "The Truth" doesn't even know 1/4 what BG knows you fools. Whether it's good or bad BG will keep to himself right now.

GRRRR. BG better get some rest. Sleep deprivation makes him cranky. There are free snakes to the mod/admin that informs BG if anyone wants this thread removed. Removing it does not serve the community best, so hopefully it stays to resolve this matter for good.

BG only asks for patience fans. You'll just have to hang in there until BG speaks to a couple more people.

ps. on a lighter note. BG may post some snake pics for a change.:gj:

I also read about the females slow growing. even if this turns out to be true, this is still an awsome gene to have in your collection. just about every morph breed to this gene turns to gold. look at the pins, spiders, enchies, fires to name just a few. already purchase mine from P.E. and if it turns out that there will be a super form of this gene, what a bonus.

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Originally Posted by don15681

I also read about the females slow growing. even if this turns out to be true, this is still an awsome gene to have in your collection. just about every morph breed to this gene turns to gold. look at the pins, spiders, enchies, fires to name just a few. already purchase mine from P.E. and if it turns out that there will be a super form of this gene, what a bonus.

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More FYI. Big Gunns loves Deserts and their combos. Loves them.:gj::gj:

I want a desert clown sooooo bad...

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Originally Posted by spitzu

I want a desert clown sooooo bad...

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BG has to admit....they are awesome.:gj:

I saw a pic of Ben Renick's adult female Desert glowing and it looks like a nice healthy breeding girl:gj:

I used to hear the same thing about pieds(back when there wasn't that many) and therefore you should raise and breed hets, but I have a female pied that has grown like a weed and has reached breeding weight right on schedule.



Just because someone has a bad experience with an animal and posts it online doesn't make it law, that's all I saying;)

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I saw a pic of Ben Renick's adult female Desert glowing and it looks like a nice healthy breeding girl:gj:

I used to hear the same thing about pieds(back when there wasn't that many) and therefore you should raise and breed hets, but I have a female pied that has grown like a weed and has reached breeding weight right on schedule.



Just because someone has a bad experience with an animal and posts it online doesn't make it law, that's all I saying;)

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BG couldn't agree more with your last statement. The question is whether or not it's just "someONE" and whether it's just "an" animal BG would say.;)


ps. Wonder if someone is regretting mentioning BG's name right about now. You should have never listened to my favorite donut eater. You have put BG in a bad spot to defend himself.... and he's not too happy about it.:taz: For this transgression, BG continues this game.

So in these 10 years only the male deserts and desert combos have been carrying the gene on? hard to believe...

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Originally Posted by mgt1216

So in these 10 years only the male deserts and desert combos have been carrying the gene on? hard to believe...

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BG has to ask. If that was in fact true, why would that be hard to believe?:confused:

I purchased my Desert Female at the 2007 Daytona show from Stan Chiras. The first year she got up to 800 grams in weight before shutting down. The next year she got up to about 1100 grams before shutting down again. The third year she was around 1450 grams in weight at the start of 2010 breeding season but I decided to wait one more year before trying her. This year she was at about 1750 grams when I first started pairing her up on 1/10/11. She has been ravenous since she started breeding eating every time I offer her food. I took the following picture on Friday afternoon after a shed.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...1_2004grms.jpg

I took the following picture of her on Sunday morning 3/27/11 breeding with my Male Superstripe.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...br11_800_3.jpg

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Originally Posted by JayCee

Just found this little tidbit posted in 2009.

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Both Stan Chiras and Peter Kahl, unbeknown to them, were working with two separate imported Desert balls lines at the time. It was first assumed that the desert morph was recessive, because they resembled the desert ghost mutation. While comparing breeding efforts, they later proved that the Desert gene was a simple co-dominant mutation. In theory, 50% of a clutch should be Deserts when bred to a normal phase ball python.

In conversation, Stan explained to me that the Desert ball appears to be somewhat of a dwarf sized ball python that will not bulk up in size as some balls do. The male Desert I had purchased from Stan resembled more a corn snake than a ball python at its yearling size. Stan insisted for me to pair him up with some select females this season. “He may be little, but he’ll do the job”, he assured me.

We can only imagine what a super desert would look like if it proves itself to exist this season. In the meantime, we are proud to work with our Chiras line Desert ball. One step closer, in our pursuit of the Desert Spider.

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I think Stan’s comments on the Desert possibly being a dwarf mutation might have been jumping the gun a little bit don’t you think.

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Originally Posted by Albey

I purchased my Desert Female at the 2007 Daytona show from Stan Chiras. The first year she got up to 800 grams in weight before shutting down. The next year she got up to about 1100 grams before shutting down again. The third year she was around 1450 grams in weight at the start of 2010 breeding season but I decided to wait one more year before trying her. This year she was at about 1750 grams when I first started pairing her up on 1/10/11. She has been ravenous since she started breeding eating every time I offer her food. I took the following picture on Friday afternoon after a shed.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...1_2004grms.jpg

I took the following picture of her on Sunday morning 3/27/11 breeding with my Male Superstripe.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...br11_800_3.jpg



I think Stan’s comments on the Desert possibly being a dwarf mutation might have been jumping the gun a little bit don’t you think.

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We'll have to wait and see now won't we? BG has never stated what he thinks/knows. Your ONE animal is not old enough to prove anything since Balls can easily reach twice that weight. Maybe you're right....maybe you're not.;):D

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

We'll have to wait and see now won't we? BG has never stated what he thinks/knows. Your ONE animal is not old enough to prove anything since Balls can easily reach twice that weight. Maybe you're right....maybe you're not.;):D

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I agree with you 99% of the time BG, and I'm half-way agreeing with you now. But, you have to admit that rarely a ball python reaches 4000 grams and wears the weight in good health. Some females do get rather big, but most only get 2000-2500. I feel lucky if a female breaks 3000 grams.

Not to say that there isn't any truth about the Desert gene possibly being a "dwarf" like gene, but I know several people who own deserts... males and females.. and I've never heard them mention anything like what I'm reading here about their Deserts. I've seen these animals several times in person. Next to other ball pythons that are similar in age, and they look about the same/normal size and weight for their age.

I also thought about this. With as many deserts and desert combos that Pro Exotics have produced, I'd be VERY hard pressed to believe any of this.

IMHO I wouldn't be scared at all to purchase a desert or desert combo.

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I agree with you 99% of the time BG, and I'm half-way agreeing with you now. But, you have to admit that rarely a ball python reaches 4000 grams and wears the weight in good health. Some females do get rather big, but most only get 2000-2500. I feel lucky if a female breaks 3000 grams.

Not to say that there isn't any truth about the Desert gene possibly being a "dwarf" like gene, but I know several people who own deserts... males and females.. and I've never heard them mention anything like what I'm reading here about their Deserts. I've seen these animals several times in person. Next to other ball pythons that are similar in age, and they look about the same/normal size and weight for their age.

I also thought about this. With as many deserts and desert combos that Pro Exotics have produced, I'd be VERY hard pressed to believe any of this.

IMHO I wouldn't be scared at all to purchase a desert or desert combo.

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Big Gunns never said they were a "dwarf" Ball Python. As a matter of fact, he hasn't said anything either way. He does know the real "truth" though. He is just tying to decide whether he should give them the thumbs up, or throw them and their breeders in the fish fryer.

Absolute 100% positive "truth" that is. The whole "truth" and nothing but "THE TRUTH". Let BG make that perfectly clear. He wouldn't even be posting on this thread, but although it rarely happens......someone got BG a leeetle po'd(BG realizes this person was misled, but still BG is po'd). When that happens....you had better be on the right side of the argument.:colbert:

ps. BG will agree with you also, most Balls do not get huge. BG was really trying to point out that he only has one.:gj:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Big Gunns never said they were a "dwarf" Ball Python. As a matter of fact, he hasn't said anything either way. He does know the real "truth" though. He is just tying to decide whether he should give them the thumbs up, or throw them and their breeders in the fish fryer.

Absolute 100% positive "truth" that is. The whole "truth" and nothing but "THE TRUTH". Let BG make that perfectly clear. He wouldn't even be posting on this thread, but although it rarely happens......someone got BG a leeetle po'd(BG realizes this person was misled, but still BG is po'd). When that happens....you had better be on the right side of the argument.:colbert:

ps. BG will agree with you also, most Balls do not get huge. BG was really trying to point out that he only has one.:gj:

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So? What's the truth? I could use some today...

I'm a little confused. I thought the question was not whether or not the females put on sufficient weight. But if they were capable of producing viable clutches. Someone with true knowledge please clarify. Thanks

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Originally Posted by harbor reptiles

I'm a little confused.

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A little? LOL..... There should be a manual on how to read BG's threads:rofl:

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Originally Posted by harbor reptiles

I'm a little confused. I thought the question was not whether or not the females put on sufficient weight. But if they were capable of producing viable clutches. Someone with true knowledge please clarify. Thanks

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They are definitely able to produced viable clutches. That has already been established. Now people are bringing up something that Stan Chiras said in 2008 on his thinking they may be a dwarf sized Ball Python. See my post here to see what I am talking about. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1535051

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Originally Posted by Albey

They are definitely able to produced viable clutches. That has already been established. Now people are bringing up something that Stan Chiras said in 2008 on his thinking they may be a dwarf sized Ball Python. See my post here to see what I am talking about. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1535051

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Well then Albs...maybe BG doesn't need to say anything since you seem to be the expert. Please explain to everyone how you know they are "definitely able to produce viable clutches". BG is not completely doubting your claim since maybe BG knows this to be true also. He would just like to know how YOU can be "DEFINITELY" sure. Please enlighten all of BG's 2 fans.:D

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Well then Albs...maybe BG doesn't need to say anything since you seem to be the expert. Please explain to everyone how you know they are "definitely able to produce viable clutches". BG is not completely doubting your claim since maybe BG knows this to be true also. He would just like to know how YOU can be "DEFINITELY" sure. Please enlighten all of BG's 2 fans.:D

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Mike Powell produced a clutch from a Female Desert and it was from your good friend Pete Kahl’s line. There is one other clutch from one of PE’s customers also. Robyn was not at liberty to say who that was. Oh by the way, there were a lot of people stating that you were “The Truth” in the original post on Kingsnake. I knew that wasn’t possible for many reasons but mostly because you wouldn’t have been such a wimp and hidden behind such a lame ass name. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Albey

Mike Powell produced a clutch from a Female Desert and it was from your good friend Pete Kahl’s line. There is one other clutch from one of PE’s customers also. Robyn was not at liberty to say who that was. Oh by the way, there were a lot of people stating that you were “The Truth” in the original post on Kingsnake. I knew that wasn’t possible for many reasons but mostly because you wouldn’t have been such a wimp and hidden behind such a lame ass name. :rofl:

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Well there you have it, Albs has cleared everything up.;):D There's no possible way these two things could be false. They're "definitely" true.:rolleyes:

Might not have been the greatest idea for some to call BG "The Truth". Actually, that wasn't all that bad, but when you call him "The Truth" and many other things, you force BG to respond.:colbert: How much he continues to respond is still undecided by the evil genius.

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

So? What's the truth? I could use some today...

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"The Truth" is we are going to have to wait and see. At least that is what I'm doing. Price is the main concern, as I do this for a hobby, but ability of the animal to reproduce is also on my list. It is all on you to make the decision to buy an animal or not. I bought a Spider even though I knew the animal would have a "wobble'. I did not buy Caramels because I did not want to produce kinked animals.

I didn't mean to cause anything by starting this thread. I just wanted other opinions. I LOVE the Desert gene, and my brother wants to work with them. I would also love to own a few of the morph combos myself. But like I said before, I can't afford them right now and all this hoo-pla weighs in on my decision. I hope that it is not true, but for now I will let those with the Deserts do the tinkering.

Also, I think with everything that is being said, breeders are going to go out of their way to post everything the can about female Deserts on eggs. (Although BG said that those photos could be faked) I believe that within the next 2-3 years we will know for sure. Until then, I will keep wanting my Desert-Lesser-Enchi.:D

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

BG only asks for patience fans. You'll just have to hang in there until BG speaks to a couple more people.

ps. on a lighter note. BG may post some snake pics for a change.:gj:

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Also, totally waiting for both of these to happen! :D

Soooo, who's desert females have laid eggs this year? HAHA, anybody get that rumor breaking clutch yet this year? Just wondering if any updates

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Originally Posted by PweEzy

Soooo, who's desert females have laid eggs this year? HAHA, anybody get that rumor breaking clutch yet this year? Just wondering if any updates

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The end of this season should shed some light on this issue many of us can't wait to see and hear the findings.