Need help bad please

All,

I have a 75 gallon aquarium that i was using for fish. My wife and I have decided to venture into the Ball Python world. We have spend quite a bit of money setting up the aquarium and were going to house 2 together. What I have read about this this is bad. I do not want to do anything to stress the snakes out but can't afford another tank at this point and the supplies to get it set up. I could put a divider in. I have black plastic i will black out the divider and the sides and back. Any thoughts on this. I know a 75 Gallon tank would be too big for one snake but if I divided it up could it work for 2 with them sharing the UTH in the middle with their own hides, water and heat lamp. I have heard some people say they house theirs together with no problem but then i have hears some people say under no circumstances besides breeding do you house 2 Balls in one tank. With the 75 gallon tank if they have adequate hides water and branches to climb on will that give them enough room to stay out of each others way. Also I read an article about a Ball eating another Ball how common is this? Any help on this is very much appreciated.

Thanks
To all that respond

The problem with a 75 gal tank is that you are going to have to try ridiculously hard to get temps and humidity correct for one snake, let alone two separate/divided enclosures.

Your best bet? Sell the 75, get two 20gal longs. They are all a bp really needs and you won't have to struggle nearly as hard to get the temps and humidity correct.

The only species of snake I would recommend housing together would be Solomon island tree boas, they are the only species of snake I will cohabitate for anything other than breeding.

Here is my canned reply on housing two ball pythons together:
To quote another post on the exact same topic (PS: search feature is your friend). Take this post with a grain of salt, but please understand why it is better for your animals to each have a home, than to have to share one. (This post was also made for someone who was already housing animals together).

NO, you should not.

it is NOT good for the animals to be housed together. There are a multitude of reasons for this, including but not limited to the following;

1. You didnt quarantine your new addition and if its carrying something, chances are your older animal has it too anything from parasites, worms, sickness and disease, (even if there arent any symptoms yet)

2. Did you get these animals sexed from a reliable source? Or are you trusting the pet store.. This means you could have two opposite genders and you have the chance that they could now breed early causing the female (if one is a female) problems and possibly killing her

3. Cannibalism is known to occur in a few documented cases involving BPs

4. If one of your animals is sick, you probably wont know which one because you cant tell their feces/urates/regurges apart

5. If one gets sick, they both get sick and now you have to spend 2x the amount of money in vet care.

6. Actions we see as "cuddling" are actually one snake competing with the other. They both may be eating fine now but how long is that going to last? The smaller one is especially at risk for stress which could lower immune levels. They will constantly be competing for the best hide spots and best heating spots, etc.

housing two animals in one enclosure when they arent social isnt something novice keepers should do. Each animal should have their own space to thrive. If cost is the problem then maybe you need to take one back or rehome him until you can provide a suitable environment for any animal that comes into your home.

SpottedBoa -

I'm in central Indiana and am getting ready to switch my two BPS from two 40 gallon tanks to tubs. I'd gladly give you one or both of them for a nominal price if you're interested. How soon are you needing to get tanks, as I should (SHOULD!) be making the switch before the end of March, once I get the tubs set up and the temps/humidity stabilized. I can get your pictures and whatnot of both of them if you're interested and we can discuss a price and arrangements if you want.

If not, no pressure whatsoever. I could make arrangements to meet halfway, depending on what part of Kentucky you're in. I wouldn't want to drive any farther than Evansville. It's a thought, if you're interested. There are people on here with WAAAAAAAAAY more knowledge than what I currently have but I've not been too impressed with the tank setups thus far. They're a pain to keep the humidity stable in and the temps are a little bit of an issue as well. I dunno, just my two cents. Hopefully you get something figured out and someone has a better answer than I could give. Good luck!

I have heard the Same things. But.....I house a normal and albino ball python togetherand have for 2years straight, you do need to keep up with who urate and who defecated, watch them when they shed..etc. give them choices individually and together. Mine have never fought, occasionally they curl up together and sleep when they feel cold. They love to climb and play in tunnels. They are very relaxed together. I feed them the same day, but in different feeding containers..seems to work out fine. Their home is custom glass with front line openings 6'long, 3'deep and 18" high. natural looking vegetation and trees with vines and plenty of water. Works very well

sent from my EVO , with Tapatalk

Ask a million owners, SpottedBoa and you're more than likely going to get a million and one responses, lol! It's probably not the ideal situation but it could be made to work. The most prominent issue that comes to mind would be the heating and humidity, as has already been mentioned, but again, that could be worked on and made to work until your situation changes or allows for other arrangements. Again, best of luck to you and I hope it works out for you and your snakes!

As I have mentioned before, I am against housing snakes together. One other problem that can easily arise is that one of your snakes may stop eating. The problem at this point is that you may not be able to determine the cause because a real possibility is that the two snakes together is the problem. You can wait it out and see if your snake will eat again, but it may not and then you have waited 2 months for your snake to eat and still can't be sure why. Balls can be finicky eaters, and I just think the risk is not worth it imo. Too much stress for a new ball owner. you could always sell the tank and buy a couple tubs for your snakes. Or simply just have one snake to start.

Humidity can be a real problem in a glass tank setup. My brother went with a glass tank, and has found it extremely irritating to keep the humidity up. With a tub, it is super easy. Furthermore, balls really like the enclosed feel of tubs. Sure you cant really see your ball, but ball pythons sleep in their hides 95% of the time anyways. If you want to see them, just take them out for a visit.

Hope that helps a little, let us know what you decide and if you have any more questions :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

The only species of snake I would recommend housing together would be Solomon island tree boas, they are the only species of snake I will cohabitate for anything other than breeding.

Here is my canned reply on housing two ball pythons together:
To quote another post on the exact same topic (PS: search feature is your friend). Take this post with a grain of salt, but please understand why it is better for your animals to each have a home, than to have to share one. (This post was also made for someone who was already housing animals together).

NO, you should not.

it is NOT good for the animals to be housed together. There are a multitude of reasons for this, including but not limited to the following;

1. You didnt quarantine your new addition and if its carrying something, chances are your older animal has it too anything from parasites, worms, sickness and disease, (even if there arent any symptoms yet)

2. Did you get these animals sexed from a reliable source? Or are you trusting the pet store.. This means you could have two opposite genders and you have the chance that they could now breed early causing the female (if one is a female) problems and possibly killing her

3. Cannibalism is known to occur in a few documented cases involving BPs

4. If one of your animals is sick, you probably wont know which one because you cant tell their feces/urates/regurges apart

5. If one gets sick, they both get sick and now you have to spend 2x the amount of money in vet care.

6. Actions we see as "cuddling" are actually one snake competing with the other. They both may be eating fine now but how long is that going to last? The smaller one is especially at risk for stress which could lower immune levels. They will constantly be competing for the best hide spots and best heating spots, etc.

housing two animals in one enclosure when they arent social isnt something novice keepers should do. Each animal should have their own space to thrive. If cost is the problem then maybe you need to take one back or rehome him until you can provide a suitable environment for any animal that comes into your home.

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Why? Can you please explain why candoia are immune from your six cardinal rules against cohabitation?

I know they are not immune from cannibalism. I know this not from reading, not because someone on a forum quoted someone else on a forum, but from actual experience. I had one paulsoni munch on another. I then had it happen with a bibroni.

So, why do candoia and only candoia get a pass? What about the countless other species that are often and very successfully kept together?

Good information, Johan and I whole-heartedly agree about the tanks not holding humidity or very little at that. After spending several hundred dollars thinking I was getting the best thing for my snakes by buying tanks for them, lo and behold...! Oh well, live and learn, lol! Making the switch to tubs as soon as my Flexwatt gets in...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Why? Can you please explain why candoia are immune from your six cardinal rules against cohabitation?

I know they are not immune from cannibalism. I know this not from reading, not because someone on a forum quoted someone else on a forum, but from actual experience. I had one paulsoni munch on another. I then had it happen with a bibroni.

So, why do candoia and only candoia get a pass? What about the countless other species that are often and very successfully kept together?

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Whoa, Skiploder! Scarin' me with the Latin name callin', lmao! Had to Google both of those, as I didn't have the foggiest, lol!

I think it's up to each and every individual and what they feel and find is best for their particular animals. I'd hesitate to call most anything a cardinal rule, as opposed to a strongly informed opinion, as what works for one person a thousand plus times might not work at all for another. I realize there are facts and then there are experiences and the two aren't necessarily one and the same. I understand your point but I can see the other side of things as well. Two sides to every discussion, I guess...just sayin'...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Why? Can you please explain why candoia are immune from your six cardinal rules against cohabitation?

I know they are not immune from cannibalism. I know this not from reading, not because someone on a forum quoted someone else on a forum, but from actual experience. I had one paulsoni munch on another. I then had it happen with a bibroni.

So, why do candoia and only candoia get a pass? What about the countless other species that are often and very successfully kept together?

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Let me add an edit to that quote that I sincerely forgot to add to my original post; I ONLY ever write posts on my personal experience or ideas. Since I do have some experience with these animals I should have mentioned that fact, I'm sorry. I wouldn't refer to them as cardinal rules either, but I did only write that original post with ball pythons in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Why? Can you please explain why these specific candoia are immune from your six cardinal rules against cohabitation?

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In the short time I've owned them, I've found MUCH less likely to stress than ball pythons. Exceedingly less likely to stress. My group were quarantined and housed separately for quite some time, the adults were introduced originally for breeding. I haven't seen any breeding behavior but I have yet to separate them from November or so. They seem to be doing fine as a trio. If I were to see signs of stress or resource guarding/domination/competition they'd be separated immediately. But in my experience, with these particular animals, I'm not seeing an issue cohabiting this group.

There are people who have owned them longer and surly have more experience on the matter.

I only give advice on species I've got personal experience owning for what I'd consider a significant length of time. In my experience, this species is more suitable for cohabitation than ball pythons are. But I don't cohabit my ball pythons so other than a basic understanding of the species (which i have) that is my educated opinion. I suppose I should also mention that my specific group of boas are all captive bred and fed on a diet strictly of rodents, they don't and have not ever been fed other reptiles as a food source. Does this change the possibility of cannibalism? No, it doesn't, but I feel it reduces the chance enough for me to feel comfortable keeping the adults as a group.

Wasn't trying to bash you or get down on you in anyway, Cinder and I sincerely hope it didn't come across as such. In line with what you said, it comes down in large part to personal experience and what each individual is comfortable with, as well as what's best for the animals and what their comfort/health level is.

Just don't want to step on anyone's toes or offend anyone and it's hard to tell tone, etc. via computer and text sometimes, so anyway...

Balls are a great beginner snake. I'm basically a beginner myself with only about 6 months experience, and if you only get one ball, you'll want another snake soon enough. However, if you're set on keeping the tank you currently own, have you considered another reptile? Personally, I'm interested in ANY herp, all though right now I only own snakes. Why not look into a herp comfortable with that much room, or maybe a species of a larger size. I think someone mentioned heat/humidity. I owned a 55 gallon tank for a short time with a divider. Heat wasn't too much of a problem with the right lamp, but humidity was a HUGE pain. If you can find a herp that is comfortable with a lower humidity and tolerant of the occasional husbandry mistake, I say go for it! A couple Beardies may be great candidates (though what I know of beardies is pretty limited!). Breeders aren't handled much, but I held a male once who was a DREAM!

At any rate, I liked my tank set up for my ball, but when I realized it wasn't the best for him I switched to a tub. Don't be surprised if you end up getting rid of that tank to make your pet's habitat perfect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youbeyouibei

Wasn't trying to bash you or get down on you in anyway, Cinder and I sincerely hope it didn't come across as such. In line with what you said, it comes down in large part to personal experience and what each individual is comfortable with, as well as what's best for the animals and what their comfort/health level is.

Just don't want to step on anyone's toes or offend anyone and it's hard to tell tone, etc. via computer and text sometimes, so anyway...

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Oh don't worry :) I was just explaining what you and skiploder asked. I apologize for not clarifying the way I phrased the information. As a .."cardinal rule" i suppose, I would never suggest a new or novice animal keeper experiment with their animals or house them together (especially for something as trivial as "its too much money for two enclosures" kind of thing). It's just a poor idea all around. However, if you feel you have the experience with a species I don't think its a bad idea to try to learn more about your animals by changing their environment and seeing how they react (within reason).

Well-said, Cinderbird. Glad you didn't take offense at that, as none was intended. I'm not an expert at much of anything and most of that which I claim to be an expert at is less that useful in most situations, lol! (Does Call of Duty: World at War count?!). I couldn't agree more regarding the claim of money being the restricting issue, as that to me begs the question of why have an animal if you can't provide for it as it should be cared for? I realize how terse and short that sounds and don't mean for it to but again, the issue is the care and upkeep of the animal(s), soooooo...and as you said, if a person is a novice, why complicate the situation further by adding unnecessary stress and headaches to the equation by having less that ideal housing? I dunno...not my issue, I guess, so I'll just let it go.

You make a good point, TDent, with the species. Beardies are cool as can be and would do AWESOME in a tank that size, from what I know of them. That's part of what kept me from getting them, was their caging requirements, lol, but I haven't ruled them out entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

Let me add an edit to that quote that I sincerely forgot to add to my original post; I ONLY ever write posts on my personal experience or ideas. Since I do have some experience with these animals I should have mentioned that fact, I'm sorry. I wouldn't refer to them as cardinal rules either, but I did only write that original post with ball pythons in mind.



In the short time I've owned them, I've found MUCH less likely to stress than ball pythons. Exceedingly less likely to stress. My group were quarantined and housed separately for quite some time, the adults were introduced originally for breeding. I haven't seen any breeding behavior but I have yet to separate them from November or so. They seem to be doing fine as a trio. If I were to see signs of stress or resource guarding/domination/competition they'd be separated immediately. But in my experience, with these particular animals, I'm not seeing an issue cohabiting this group.

There are people who have owned them longer and surly have more experience on the matter.

I only give advice on species I've got personal experience owning for what I'd consider a significant length of time. In my experience, this species is more suitable for cohabitation than ball pythons are. But I don't cohabit my ball pythons so other than a basic understanding of the species (which i have) that is my educated opinion. I suppose I should also mention that my specific group of boas are all captive bred and fed on a diet strictly of rodents, they don't and have not ever been fed other reptiles as a food source. Does this change the possibility of cannibalism? No, it doesn't, but I feel it reduces the chance enough for me to feel comfortable keeping the adults as a group.

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I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm not trying to pick a fight - just trying to understand the advice you gave the OP.

You listed 6 reasons to not co-habitate snakes. When I asked you about why candoia somehow fall outside those rules but balls don't you gave me a very cogent and thorough response.

But.......

Candoia are known better for cannibalism - more in young animals - than balls. While they are not as cannibalistic as some, the risk exists and I could probably argue it is higher than with balls.

As for your comments about quarantine and proliferation of disease in cohabitation - what is good for the goose (candoia) is good for the gander (balls). Why should a properly quarantined and tested pair of balls be any more likely to suffer from the spread of pathogens than similarly treated candoia?

Same with the concept of "cuddling" - it happens in just about all cohabited snakes - even when you provide them several optimum thermoregulation spots and a ton of space.

People have been cohabitating balls for years. Is it the optimum set-up? No. Can it be done? Yes. Should people new to snakes practice it? Probably not.........

But the same exact argument can be made for candoia. Candoia are known streaky eaters and are also known to stress fairly easily. Imports also come in parasite ridden and need to be aggressively treated.

So I'm at a loss. I can see why you wouldn't recommend cohabitating snakes in general to someone new to the hobby - I just am having a hard time seeing your apples to oranges comparison between candoia and balls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm not trying to pick a fight - just trying to understand the advice you gave the OP.

You listed 6 reasons to not co-habitate snakes. When I asked you about why candoia somehow fall outside those rules but balls don't you gave me a very cogent and thorough response.

But.......

1. Candoia are known better for cannibalism - more in young animals - than balls. While they are not as cannibalistic as some, the risk exists and I could probably argue it is higher than with balls.

2. As for your comments about quarantine and proliferation of disease in cohabitation - what is good for the goose (candoia) is good for the gander (balls). Why should a properly quarantined and tested pair of balls be any more likely to suffer from the spread of pathogens than similarly treated candoia?

3. Same with the concept of "cuddling" - it happens in just about all cohabited snakes - even when you provide them several optimum thermoregulation spots and a ton of space.

People have been cohabitating balls for years. Is it the optimum set-up? No. Can it be done? Yes. Should people new to snakes practice it? Probably not.........

4. But the same exact argument can be made for candoia. Candoia are known streaky eaters and are also known to stress fairly easily. Imports also come in parasite ridden and need to be aggressively treated.

So I'm at a loss. I can see why you wouldn't recommend cohabitating snakes in general to someone new to the hobby - I just am having a hard time seeing your apples to oranges comparison between candoia and balls.

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Numbered your paragraphs so they'd be easier to respond to.

I wouldn't recommend people with
- New import animals (mine are CBB)
- young animals (Mine long time adults)
- unquarentied animals (were quarantined)
house them together.

"You listed 6 reasons to not co-habitate snakes" I listed 6 reasons not to co-habitate ball pythons. My list would probably be a lot longer for candoia, and specifically Candoia bibroni australis, since that's the only species I've got experience with in the Candoia family. I don't think I've ever even handled a ground boa.

I thought the information would be more worthwhile if I could provide examples of where something would be a poor idea to do (the 6 list) and an example where I thought a successful trial of the (thing) in question has occurred. I find its more prudent to help people by giving them options rather than just telling them "no" all the time.

I understand that it may seem like I'm entirely contradicting myself, but I'm just giving my personal experience with the species named. :) Sorry for the long while it took me to respond. LONG day at work bleh!

I want to thank everyone for their input. You all have been helpful. I think I will save up and go with the rack system heard alot of good things about them.

Pluses and minuses to both, Spotted but whatever you decide, best of luck to you! Can't beat this forum for the input/information from people and the overall friendliness of the overwhelming majority of people on here. Take care and good luck!

Thank you all for the advise. We just ordered a rack system. This is the wife this time by the way. I am disappointed that I cleared out all my fish only to discover 1 day later it was all for not. :( But on the plus side hubby said I can probably get a turtle and I have been wanting one of those for a LONG time. :) Plus now we will be ready to grow our collection since our new rack holds 6 adults or 12 young.

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Originally Posted by SpottedBOA

Thank you all for the advise. We just ordered a rack system. This is the wife this time by the way. I am disappointed that I cleared out all my fish only to discover 1 day later it was all for not. :( But on the plus side hubby said I can probably get a turtle and I have been wanting one of those for a LONG time. :) Plus now we will be ready to grow our collection since our new rack holds 6 adults or 12 young.

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That's awesome, I look forward to seeing what you pick up :)