Fishy or not?

So I'm looking to get back into breeding. Just to produce some morphs I otherwise would not be able to afford. So I planned to start with just one paring next year, to produce albinos. I sexed my ball python myself for the first time, (since I didn't care earlier, only owned "him" as a display snake) and found that what I was told "might be a male" is actually a female albino. So, I'm now looking for a male albino het to breed with her next year. (If she's ready.) Anyway, I was told that a reputable breeder was local, so I looked him up, and found a male albino het born mid '09 for a VERY good price on his website. However, upon asking for more info, I was told he was only 220 grams. Wow. Isn't that small for an almost two year old bp? So I asked him about this and was told, "Due to the interest in Hets in todays market being low and shipping restrictions on size of snakes for our international customers, we keep these animals at a manageable smaller size. They are feeding great and don't appear to be thin or unhealthy. Once in your possession you can feed them a little more than usual and they will grow to their standard adult size." (c&p from e-mail.) So my question is, am I right and this is total bull, or is there some truth in what he says?

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Originally Posted by NoLaHeRpEr

So I'm looking to get back into breeding. Just to produce some morphs I otherwise would not be able to afford. So I planned to start with just one paring next year, to produce albinos. I sexed my ball python myself for the first time, (since I didn't care earlier, only owned "him" as a display snake) and found that what I was told "might be a male" is actually a female albino. So, I'm now looking for a male albino het to breed with her next year. (If she's ready.) Anyway, I was told that a reputable breeder was local, so I looked him up, and found a male albino het born mid '09 for a VERY good price on his website. However, upon asking for more info, I was told he was only 220 grams. Wow. Isn't that small for an almost two year old bp? So I asked him about this and was told, "Due to the interest in Hets in todays market being low and shipping restrictions on size of snakes for our international customers, we keep these animals at a manageable smaller size. They are feeding great and don't appear to be thin or unhealthy. Once in your possession you can feed them a little more than usual and they will grow to their standard adult size." (c&p from e-mail.) So my question is, am I right and this is total bull, or is there some truth in what he says?

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I vote bull. My late 2010 balls are slithering around 200g.

I can only think of one or two people that are local to you..and if its either one of the two I'm thinking of they are honest people..if they were going to feed you a line it would be that they are younger than they are.

Take it or leave it..

It's no bull. When you've got as many snakes as some have, the cheaper snake and snakes they plan to sell are usually put on a maintenance feeding schedule. This meaning theyre usually fed smaller prey items and a little less often than what you would feed to a snake youre trying to get to breeding size. You cant compare a snake that the person is trying to sell to a snake you're pushing to get to breeding size. I'm not saying its bad or good but the regular person that is trying to get their snakes to size tends to feed a little excessively. The snake you were looking at hasn't been underfed or malnourished...it just hasn't been fed heavily in order to get it to the biggest or breedable size.

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

It's no bull. When you've got as many snakes as some have, the cheaper snake and snakes they plan to sell are usually put on a maintenance feeding schedule. This meaning theyre usually fed smaller prey items and a little less often than what you would feed to a snake youre trying to get to breeding size. You cant compare a snake that the person is trying to sell to a snake you're pushing to get to breeding size. I'm not saying its bad or good but the regular person that is trying to get their snakes to size tends to feed a little excessively. The snake you were looking at hasn't been underfed or malnourished...it just hasn't been fed heavily in order to get it to the biggest or breedable size.

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I find this kind of care really gives organizations like PETA a reason to ban herps. I personally find it a horrible way to do things :(. People say it doesnt harm the snake as there is little scientific research into it. However, common sense on organisms is that underfed to minimize growth at early stages of life=not good.

Like I said before, they're not underfed. They're just fed less than what most would feed that are trying to get their snakes to breeding size. You could say that the amount we feed to get them to size is harmful to them as well but that's a different discussion in itself. The average person with a pet snake probably feeds their snake less than what this breeder is feeding his maintenance fed animals.

I won't deny there are breeders who take maintenance feeding to another level where their snakes are in fact underfed and malnourished but for the majority of them they do not. That's why you do your research and know what breeders you should or shouldn't buy from.

Depending on when it was hatched. It could be a very late 09'. But yah that sounds a little under weight.

But to me that still makes no sense. Everything we tell new owners and everything you read on caring for bps says to feed young snakes every 7-10 days. (Sometimes even 5-7!) This is told to keepers, not breeders, to ensure the health of your snake. How is it then, that by following these instructions, that a snake of the same age will weigh 2-3 times more? Obviously, this isn't good for the snake. Its apparent to me that the breeder is even aware that he is under feeding these poor snakes because he said in the e-mail, "Once in your possession you can feed them a little more than usual and they will grow to their standard adult size." So, this guy breeds these snakes, then, the ones that aren't morphs are purposely underfed because they won't make him as much money? Sounds a little harsh to me. I wonder what he does with his normals that aren't hets?

It's a sad reality that many breeders will invest more in food etc for more profitable snakes. Remember to many it's a business and they're in it for a profit. In no way am I condoning it, just stating the facts. Personally I feel it's better to have less on hand and have them all 100%. Quality not quantity. All your snakes speak for you as breeder.

Exactly as I feel. For example, based on what he says, he probably feeds his "more profitable" snakes very well. I however, see every individual he offers as a representation of the health of ALL of his snakes. So I will not buy ANYTHING from him. (I too think he just has too much on his plate. He breeds ALOT of herps.)

**What's that expression...You're only as strong as your weakest link?**

He nor anyone else said the snake was unhealthy. He more than likely feeds that particular snake every 7-10 days as you stated....his higher end stuff he probably feeds 2-3 times that as most people would. If you really look at it we overfeed our snakes to get them to breeding size as fast as possible. Think about snakes in the wild, they would eat even less...they survive just find don't they?

Ok... so here I am... This was a message from myself and my company.

I won't take too much time on this because I am actually spending this evening, just like every Thursday evening, feeding snakes.

The reply that I sent was an honest representation of my position on this matter. When we have a large amount of normals or Heterozygous animals we have a few choices. Some breeders (I DON'T CONDONE THIS) freeze all of their normal and Het. males. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Some breeders will wholesale their mass amount to large pet distributors. Then the rest will hold on to the animals until they find the right homes with breeders and collectors.

We finish our hatching season by wholesaling a reputable dealer a large number of normals. I don't like to wholesale Hets as normals as we have always maintained a good reputation and been able to move through our animals.

I have many reasons for feeding these animals smaller meals, they get fed EVERY THURSDAY as that is when our live rodent supply is delivered. I'd like to also say that I keep breeding males at a very small size. Most of our breeder males are between 350-850 grams. This has been through years of experience of smaller males breeding better and not fasting as long as large ones.

As for when we ship things internationally I have found that shipments of larger animals are more difficult to transport safely because of the mass of the package.

In the end I hate to be judged like this because the animals are not unhealthy and are growing to better standards then they would be in most wild type circumstances. My conclusion is that I have always shipped out great quality animals from EbN and they end up in good places with good keepers and breeders.

I appreciate the support of my customer base and I urge you to understand that there are many ways to keep and maintain these animals. I guess some would argue the point that some of us risk the health and safely of our animals by overfeeding them. The animal in question is about 1.5 years old, when hatched he was 45 grams, he feeds weekly on adult mice and currently weighs 220 grams. To me this doesn't seem like a horrible offense... you decide...

And as mentioned, my '09 is fed every 7-10 days. She's under 700 grams. Three times that one's size. She also was off of feed when first purchased for almost two months! So how can you tell me that it is healthy? He'd have to be feeding it alot less...

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

It's no bull. When you've got as many snakes as some have, the cheaper snake and snakes they plan to sell are usually put on a maintenance feeding schedule. This meaning theyre usually fed smaller prey items and a little less often than what you would feed to a snake youre trying to get to breeding size. You cant compare a snake that the person is trying to sell to a snake you're pushing to get to breeding size. I'm not saying its bad or good but the regular person that is trying to get their snakes to size tends to feed a little excessively. The snake you were looking at hasn't been underfed or malnourished...it just hasn't been fed heavily in order to get it to the biggest or breedable size.

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Fed a little less often come on 2 years old and less then 300g ?? Something really does not sound right.

If this snake is 2 years old (meaning 24 months) then yes, this snake is underfed. Underfeeding a neonate is not healthy. Once the snake is larger (say 400 grams) one can cut back on feeding. I personally would not buy a 220 gram 24 month old ball python.

I'm no vet, but if this snake doesn't grow, it will be stunted, including it's organs. Don't go hating on me, this is just my opinion, I have no facts, but if a snake isn't allowed to grow, how would you expect it's organs to be healthy?

This does not pertain to lets say a late 09 where someone COULD call it a 2 year old.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by Sean : EbN

Ok... so here I am... This was a message from myself and my company.

I won't take too much time on this because I am actually spending this evening, just like every Thursday evening, feeding snakes.

The reply that I sent was an honest representation of my position on this matter. When we have a large amount of normals or Heterozygous animals we have a few choices. Some breeders (I DON'T CONDONE THIS) freeze all of their normal and Het. males. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Some breeders will wholesale their mass amount to large pet distributors. Then the rest will hold on to the animals until they find the right homes with breeders and collectors.

We finish our hatching season by wholesaling a reputable dealer a large number of normals. I don't like to wholesale Hets as normals as we have always maintained a good reputation and been able to move through our animals.

I have many reasons for feeding these animals smaller meals, they get fed EVERY THURSDAY as that is when our live rodent supply is delivered. I'd like to also say that I keep breeding males at a very small size. Most of our breeder males are between 350-850 grams. This has been through years of experience of smaller males breeding better and not fasting as long as large ones.

As for when we ship things internationally I have found that shipments of larger animals are more difficult to transport safely because of the mass of the package.

In the end I hate to be judged like this because the animals are not unhealthy and are growing to better standards then they would be in most wild type circumstances. My conclusion is that I have always shipped out great quality animals from EbN and they end up in good places with good keepers and breeders.

I appreciate the support of my customer base and I urge you to understand that there are many ways to keep and maintain these animals. I guess some would argue the point that some of us risk the health and safely of our animals by overfeeding them. The animal in question is about 1.5 years old, when hatched he was 45 grams, he feeds weekly on adult mice and currently weighs 220 grams. To me this doesn't seem like a horrible offense... you decide...

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So he has gained 175g in a year and a half forgive me if you take this wrong but that's really sad :( I'm not saying you do this but i know a lot of big breeders cull a lot of normals :tears: Maybe some should cut back on what they have but like i have seen in a few posts there are a few that want the all mighty dollar. I just wish more people would not buy from the huge breeders that do this sort of thing I'm not saying it's all of them but they are out there. But in order to stop this it will take the small hobby/breeders to make this happen. I just wish more of us would open our eyes and see the light on what is really going on.

I appreciate everyone's point of view! I would never cull any animal in a way that was inhumane. We have the facilities to keep all of our hatchlings healthy and properly housed.

Also we have cut back on the number of Hets. we produce. I will remain confident in the health and hardiness of our animals. I won't lie and say that these animals are younger than they really are. The client asked a question and we gave our honest answer...

I'll back Sean up on that as well. Hes always been forthcoming and honest in every aspect of his business. I've gotten snakes from him and been to his place and checked snakes out for hours and never saw anything I'd even possibly consider unhealthy; normals, hets or high end.

I've seen Sean's animals in person, and they are very healthy and well cared for. I find it amazing how quick people are to judge without bothering to take time to actually check anything out.

Do you think snakes in the wild sidle up to a drive thru window every Tuesday night at 6:00 to order a McRat with a side of mice? Do you think male ball pythons in the wild reach some specific, hefty weight by age two? For heaven's sake, people, these snakes were designed to eat infrequently and can live and thrive just fine on any number of feeding schedules we might choose to impose on them.

Of course it's possible to underfeed and starve them...I'm not talking about that kind of blatant neglect. But just because someone doesn't feed on YOUR schedule, and just because someone's snake doesn't grow as fast as YOUR snake doesn't mean that person is being neglectful or cruel or anything else. It just means they're not in any hurry to force their snake to reach some magic breeding weight.

Feed young ones every 5-7 days...mature ones every 7-10 days...prey size as big around as the biggest part of the snake's body (or some percentage of the snake's weight). It's an excellent guideline to teach folks who are starting out, because it ensures that the snake will be well fed. But I guarantee you, that over a year's time, that turns out to be WAAYYY more food than they would ever take in in the wild in the same year.

Of course, we don't want to saddle our snakes with all the challenges they would face in the wild...if we can make it better, then we're all very happy to do so. What I mean to point out is that they don't NEED enormous amounts of food to be perfectly healthy....and they don't NEED to grow at some arbitrarily prescribed rate.

And I'll just add that Sean's word is gold, as far as I'm concerned. And the man seriously knows his stuff. I'd trust him with the health and well being of my own animals in a heartbeat, and would not hesitate to buy from him.

Since I didn't get an answer to my "age" question, I'll try again?

How many months old is the snake? Like I said before, if the snake is more than 24 months old (2 years old), then the snake in question is underfed or possibly sick/ill/genetically inferior. But as I also said, if it's a LATE 09 some people COULD call this a 2 year old, which in fact it isn't.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Since I didn't get an answer to my "age" question, I'll try again?

How many months old is the snake? Like I said before, if the snake is more than 24 months old (2 years old), then the snake in question is underfed or possibly sick/ill/genetically inferior. But as I also said, if it's a LATE 09 some people COULD call this a 2 year old, which in fact it isn't.

Jim Smith

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It's been stated more than once in the thread that the snake is about 18 months old. Not 24.

I think the argument about "how much food they get in the wild" shouldn't really apply. Well, imho of course !

They aren't in the wild. If a newbie comes on here and says, so what if I don't have the perfect temps and humidity, in "the wild" the temps and humidity can vary depending on the climate of any given year, etc etc. In the wild they don't necessarily have the perfect setup as the terrain varies and not every snake will get the perfect spot.

Will we say, yeah, you're right...

Nope. Once we take these animals from the wild we have a responsibility to do right by them, as in do the best we can. Do all people do that ? No. I have no doubt that Sean does right by his animals, given that a few trustworthy people here seem to know him well and have seen his animals.

However, I do think that 220 gr. in an 18 month old is very small, even for maintenance feeding. But perhaps there are other reasons for this. Some snakes may stay smaller, some may be reluctant eaters.

I'm sad to know that some breeders think nothing to cull offspring or dump them off without any thought. Or underfeed on purpose.

I have no problem with maintenance feeding, as long as its appropriate in size and timing. But purposely stunting an animal to save $$ on food and shipping cost (and whatever else) seems cruel to me and I would never support that, even if that made me unpopular in this rather small community of Ball Python breeders and fans.

Again, not saying that is what happened here.

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Originally Posted by zina10

I think the argument about "how much food they get in the wild" shouldn't really apply. Well, imho of course !

They aren't in the wild.

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We HAVE to look at how they live in the wild in order to best understand how to care for them in captivity. Of course, just because they endure ticks and predators in the wild, doesn't mean we need to toss bugs and hungry cats into their captive environment. But we use what we know about their natural behavior to do our best to create healthy environments for them.

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If a newbie comes on here and says, so what if I don't have the perfect temps and humidity, in "the wild" the temps and humidity can vary depending on the climate of any given year, etc etc. In the wild they don't necessarily have the perfect setup as the terrain varies and not every snake will get the perfect spot.

Will we say, yeah, you're right...

Nope. Once we take these animals from the wild we have a responsibility to do right by them, as in do the best we can.

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You're absolutely right that we have a responsibility to do our very best to "do right" by them. But...how do we define a "perfect" temperature for them? How do we define a "perfect" feeding regime? We can't. We can give it our best guess, based on how they live in the wild. And because they DO succeed and thrive in a rather large variety of conditions in the wild, we have room in our choices of captive conditions as well. There are VERY successful, knowledgeable keepers/breeders who have a tremendous amount of love and respect for the animals they work with, who do not follow the "perfect" formula laid out on our caresheet. Why? Because there is no "perfect". And they have different methods that are equally successful at creating a healthy, contented home for their animals.

Exact formulas like you see laid out in our caresheet provide a valuable guideline for beginners to make sure they don't mess up to an extreme. As one grows in knowledge and understanding and their ability to read their animals, there is plenty of room to do things differently.

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However, I do think that 220 gr. in an 18 month old is very small, even for maintenance feeding. But perhaps there are other reasons for this. Some snakes may stay smaller, some may be reluctant eaters.

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There IS a lot of variety in how fast they grow and what sizes they eventually settle into at maturity. You can take same-sex siblings from the same clutch and feed them the exact same prey on the same schedule, and still see a big difference in how they grow and put on weight. If a snake has been fed consistently and appropriately and is still small...then it's very likely that snake was simply meant to be small or grow slowly. To take a single example out of an entire collection and condemn the keeping methods based on one snake's weight/age is ridiculous. (NOT saying that is what you're doing in the post I'm replying to, but others in this thread have)

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I'm sad to know that some breeders think nothing to cull offspring or dump them off without any thought. Or underfeed on purpose.

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That IS sad...and unfortunately, there will always be people in the business of breeding animals who do it for money rather than love and respect for the animals. Fortunately for all of us, Sean is not one of those.

Judy, I think we actually agree on most points :)

What I meant to say was that we shouldn't use the "in the wild" argument to excuse less then optimal care of our animals. I think it has been established by now what the proper temps and humidity and feeding requirements are for this species, BASED on their lives in the wild. Also based on what works well in captivity.

In captivity we can control the environment and keep it at the "ideal". In the wild, that isn't possible as to many other factors (climate, humans taking over, etc etc) play a role.

We had to learn (and continue to do so) from their natural habitat, but we also have to strive to keep them at optimum husbandry at what has been proven to work well.

I completely understand where you came from, but I've also heard that "in the wild" argument way to often when some people just can't be bothered to take proper care of their animals. That doesn't just pertain to reptiles, btw.

As an example, I hear horse owners say, why bother trimming the horses hooves every 6 weeks ? Are there any farriers "in the wild" ? Why bother giving horses dentals ? Not like they have their own horse dentist in the wild...

Its simply an argument which is often abused.

And I agree that there can be many reasons why a snake isn't growing as fast or big as another.

I just don't agree with people purposely under feeding for several reasons. Or doing even worse...
Seems like when $$ and profit comes into the equation, the animals welfare often takes the back seat. Again, not just regarding reptiles.

And not regarding Sean, obviously.

Just an example of snakes growing a different rates. I have two het pied females. They are less than 14 days apart in age. One weighs in at 925 grams, the other is only 675 grams.

Both are erratic eaters, but never the less, they grow at completely different rates. As a matter of fact, the smaller of the two is actually more likely to take a rat than the larger, yet she still grows more slowly.

While weight does matter, and so does length to a degree. I have learned to judge by visually examining the snake. An underfed, skinny snake is easy to spot when compared to a healthy animal. Just because it is smaller, doesn't necessarily mean it's being neglected. Just my :2cent:

Gale

Unless someone is neglectful or purposely abusing an animal it really isn't anyone elses business what they do in my opinion. The man was upfront and honest about the snake. Either buy it or find a different one from someone else. Is it really that difficult? Just my $.02...

Regards,

B