Fishy or not?

[Luke Martin]

He nor anyone else said the snake was unhealthy. He more than likely feeds that particular snake every 7-10 days as you stated....his higher end stuff he probably feeds 2-3 times that as most people would. If you really look at it we overfeed our snakes to get them to breeding size as fast as possible. Think about snakes in the wild, they would eat even less...they survive just find don't they?

[Sean : EbN]

Ok... so here I am... This was a message from myself and my company.

I won't take too much time on this because I am actually spending this evening, just like every Thursday evening, feeding snakes.

The reply that I sent was an honest representation of my position on this matter. When we have a large amount of normals or Heterozygous animals we have a few choices. Some breeders (I DON'T CONDONE THIS) freeze all of their normal and Het. males. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Some breeders will wholesale their mass amount to large pet distributors. Then the rest will hold on to the animals until they find the right homes with breeders and collectors.

We finish our hatching season by wholesaling a reputable dealer a large number of normals. I don't like to wholesale Hets as normals as we have always maintained a good reputation and been able to move through our animals.

I have many reasons for feeding these animals smaller meals, they get fed EVERY THURSDAY as that is when our live rodent supply is delivered. I'd like to also say that I keep breeding males at a very small size. Most of our breeder males are between 350-850 grams. This has been through years of experience of smaller males breeding better and not fasting as long as large ones.

As for when we ship things internationally I have found that shipments of larger animals are more difficult to transport safely because of the mass of the package.

In the end I hate to be judged like this because the animals are not unhealthy and are growing to better standards then they would be in most wild type circumstances. My conclusion is that I have always shipped out great quality animals from EbN and they end up in good places with good keepers and breeders.

I appreciate the support of my customer base and I urge you to understand that there are many ways to keep and maintain these animals. I guess some would argue the point that some of us risk the health and safely of our animals by overfeeding them. The animal in question is about 1.5 years old, when hatched he was 45 grams, he feeds weekly on adult mice and currently weighs 220 grams. To me this doesn't seem like a horrible offense... you decide...

[NoLaHeRpEr]

And as mentioned, my '09 is fed every 7-10 days. She's under 700 grams. Three times that one's size. She also was off of feed when first purchased for almost two months! So how can you tell me that it is healthy? He'd have to be feeding it alot less...

[Haydenphoto]

It's no bull. When you've got as many snakes as some have, the cheaper snake and snakes they plan to sell are usually put on a maintenance feeding schedule. This meaning theyre usually fed smaller prey items and a little less often than what you would feed to a snake youre trying to get to breeding size. You cant compare a snake that the person is trying to sell to a snake you're pushing to get to breeding size. I'm not saying its bad or good but the regular person that is trying to get their snakes to size tends to feed a little excessively. The snake you were looking at hasn't been underfed or malnourished...it just hasn't been fed heavily in order to get it to the biggest or breedable size.

Fed a little less often come on 2 years old and less then 300g ?? Something really does not sound right.

[j_h_smith]

If this snake is 2 years old (meaning 24 months) then yes, this snake is underfed. Underfeeding a neonate is not healthy. Once the snake is larger (say 400 grams) one can cut back on feeding. I personally would not buy a 220 gram 24 month old ball python.

I'm no vet, but if this snake doesn't grow, it will be stunted, including it's organs. Don't go hating on me, this is just my opinion, I have no facts, but if a snake isn't allowed to grow, how would you expect it's organs to be healthy?

This does not pertain to lets say a late 09 where someone COULD call it a 2 year old.

Jim Smith

[Haydenphoto]

Ok... so here I am... This was a message from myself and my company.

I won't take too much time on this because I am actually spending this evening, just like every Thursday evening, feeding snakes.

The reply that I sent was an honest representation of my position on this matter. When we have a large amount of normals or Heterozygous animals we have a few choices. Some breeders (I DON'T CONDONE THIS) freeze all of their normal and Het. males. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Some breeders will wholesale their mass amount to large pet distributors. Then the rest will hold on to the animals until they find the right homes with breeders and collectors.

We finish our hatching season by wholesaling a reputable dealer a large number of normals. I don't like to wholesale Hets as normals as we have always maintained a good reputation and been able to move through our animals.

I have many reasons for feeding these animals smaller meals, they get fed EVERY THURSDAY as that is when our live rodent supply is delivered. I'd like to also say that I keep breeding males at a very small size. Most of our breeder males are between 350-850 grams. This has been through years of experience of smaller males breeding better and not fasting as long as large ones.

As for when we ship things internationally I have found that shipments of larger animals are more difficult to transport safely because of the mass of the package.

In the end I hate to be judged like this because the animals are not unhealthy and are growing to better standards then they would be in most wild type circumstances. My conclusion is that I have always shipped out great quality animals from EbN and they end up in good places with good keepers and breeders.

I appreciate the support of my customer base and I urge you to understand that there are many ways to keep and maintain these animals. I guess some would argue the point that some of us risk the health and safely of our animals by overfeeding them. The animal in question is about 1.5 years old, when hatched he was 45 grams, he feeds weekly on adult mice and currently weighs 220 grams. To me this doesn't seem like a horrible offense... you decide...

So he has gained 175g in a year and a half forgive me if you take this wrong but that's really sad I'm not saying you do this but i know a lot of big breeders cull a lot of normals Maybe some should cut back on what they have but like i have seen in a few posts there are a few that want the all mighty dollar. I just wish more people would not buy from the huge breeders that do this sort of thing I'm not saying it's all of them but they are out there. But in order to stop this it will take the small hobby/breeders to make this happen. I just wish more of us would open our eyes and see the light on what is really going on.

[Sean : EbN]

I appreciate everyone's point of view! I would never cull any animal in a way that was inhumane. We have the facilities to keep all of our hatchlings healthy and properly housed.

Also we have cut back on the number of Hets. we produce. I will remain confident in the health and hardiness of our animals. I won't lie and say that these animals are younger than they really are. The client asked a question and we gave our honest answer...

[Luke Martin]

I'll back Sean up on that as well. Hes always been forthcoming and honest in every aspect of his business. I've gotten snakes from him and been to his place and checked snakes out for hours and never saw anything I'd even possibly consider unhealthy; normals, hets or high end.

[JLC]

I've seen Sean's animals in person, and they are very healthy and well cared for. I find it amazing how quick people are to judge without bothering to take time to actually check anything out.

Do you think snakes in the wild sidle up to a drive thru window every Tuesday night at 6:00 to order a McRat with a side of mice? Do you think male ball pythons in the wild reach some specific, hefty weight by age two? For heaven's sake, people, these snakes were designed to eat infrequently and can live and thrive just fine on any number of feeding schedules we might choose to impose on them.

Of course it's possible to underfeed and starve them...I'm not talking about that kind of blatant neglect. But just because someone doesn't feed on YOUR schedule, and just because someone's snake doesn't grow as fast as YOUR snake doesn't mean that person is being neglectful or cruel or anything else. It just means they're not in any hurry to force their snake to reach some magic breeding weight.

Feed young ones every 5-7 days...mature ones every 7-10 days...prey size as big around as the biggest part of the snake's body (or some percentage of the snake's weight). It's an excellent guideline to teach folks who are starting out, because it ensures that the snake will be well fed. But I guarantee you, that over a year's time, that turns out to be WAAYYY more food than they would ever take in in the wild in the same year.

Of course, we don't want to saddle our snakes with all the challenges they would face in the wild...if we can make it better, then we're all very happy to do so. What I mean to point out is that they don't NEED enormous amounts of food to be perfectly healthy....and they don't NEED to grow at some arbitrarily prescribed rate.

And I'll just add that Sean's word is gold, as far as I'm concerned. And the man seriously knows his stuff. I'd trust him with the health and well being of my own animals in a heartbeat, and would not hesitate to buy from him.

[j_h_smith]

Since I didn't get an answer to my "age" question, I'll try again?

How many months old is the snake? Like I said before, if the snake is more than 24 months old (2 years old), then the snake in question is underfed or possibly sick/ill/genetically inferior. But as I also said, if it's a LATE 09 some people COULD call this a 2 year old, which in fact it isn't.

Jim Smith