What do I do about a pet store that is taking poor care of BPs?

I started a thread about this pet store in the past over an adult BP(which is now no longer there) and people attacked me. I am by no means some "expert" but I now know enough about BPs to see poor conditions!

Before people attack me and pretend like I am just stupid because my boyfriend and I have only owned a snake for 9 months...

We have run into problems with our ball python and have corrected them(that is what this forum is for!)

Our snake now has:

2 thermometers both with probes that are right next to both of her identical hides on each side. Warm side: 89-91 Cool side 79-81

Humidity: 50-60% raised with spraying when she is shedding(and her last shed was a perfect 1 piece shed)

Her poop and urates are removed as soon as they are spotted.(and we check everyday)

Her water is changed everyday(she gets brita filtered water just like we drink)

She has aspen bedding and it is changed once a month(when we clean her enclosue)

She eats almost every single time we feed her.


I am not claiming to be some expert by any means but I now feel I have the authority to claim OBVIOUS NEGLECT when I see it!

We went to the pet store in question tonight again to purchase Frozen Hoppers for our BP named Snickers. That is the ONLY reason we go to this pet store because their frozen mice are so much cheaper than Petco or Petsmart because they buy them in bulk and the mice are not individually packaged.

What we noticed this time was even worse than the adult BP from the other thread:

It was a baby BP this time.

No thermometers, no hygrometer, NO HIDES...not even 1

What it had was:

a screen top

a UV light heat source(which probably remains on 24/7 considering it is the ONLY heat source...so much for "darkness")

a water dish

a small bit of reptile carpet that only covered half the the small enclosure.

THAT IS IT!

The water dish was round and shoved into the corner of the enclosure and the baby BP had wrapped herself in a weird looking tangled knot in that corner next to the water dish trying to hide her face from the light because she has no hides and the bright light which is her only heat source probably remains on 24/7!

I know I am not some ball python expert but this is PATHETIC treatment by the store and I am tired of it!

All the reptiles in the store have screened lids with only UV light heat sources, no temp or humidity measuring devices!(including corn snakes, geckos, and savannah monitors)

According to google reviews of this store they also get all their dogs from puppy mills!

With the other thread I stated about this store I got attacked after getting advice from someone telling me to contact the ASPCA(I said I would and then got attacked because of information about the ASPCA concerning snakes I didn't have any knowledge of)

Even if I can purchase cheaper frozen mice at this store doesn't mean their treatment of animals in general doesn't alarm me! I would rather pay twice as much from another store to feed our snake than to let this crap I see in the store continue!

I got bashed in "the other thread I stared about this same pet store for not being an "EXPERT" http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t-to-rescue-it) but I freely admit I am not some expert...

I feel I am able to spot piss poor treatment from a pet store at this point though!


If I shouldn't contact the ASPCA do to their stance on snake ownership WHO should I contact about the store then????????

Hi there,

I haven't had time to go read the previous thread you are mentioning but I will do so right after I post this. Great job for being a responsible snake owner and getting your husbandry on point... it pays off right? (no stuck shed, regular eating, happy snake:snake:).

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(she gets brita filtered water just like we drink)

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MINE DO TOO LOL!!!

Anyway, I do not know what store you are talking about but I am guessing it is Petland. They are known for getting their puppies from puppy mills and for me that sort of sets the precedence of their ethical treatment towards all the animals in their store. (if they don't mind that they are getting sick puppies from deplorable conditions then why would they care about spending the time/money on making sure the husbandry is correct on their reptiles).... To any non-reptile person they wouldn't know that this set-up is not okay and therefore wouldn't say or think anything of it.

My suggestion would be to talk to the store manager about your concerns in a constructive, non condescending way. Maybe they would be glad to have your help/advice.

If that doesn't work move to plan B.

(we'll figure out what that is if need be). Good Luck.

But when confronting them about it, you aren't going to get anywhere if you tell them they are horrible and mean and bad etc. Assume the best about them (that they really are just ignorant and would be happy to learn the correct way) - whether or not this is true- but it gives you a better way to approach the situation.

Good Luck.

Ok,

I just went back and read that whole thread... :rolleye2:

wow.

i was surprised how volatile it got ... I have never seen any threads like it thus far!

I don't know what PMs were exchanged and what you and the other guy who lives in your city figured out about that adult BP but here is my take on this CURRENT situation now AFTER reading that thread...

You seem to have gotten your husbandry on point and learned a lot from the members on here. While the conditions you DESCRIBED (I can only go off of your description) of this current snake are definitely not IDEAL - they are not

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piss poor

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like you said.

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piss poor

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would be feces and urine/urates everywhere, no water, no heat, obvious signs of infection/mites/RI, underfed/not fed, and/or open wounds from live feedings. Something like that- would be an IMMEDIATE cause for conern. While the conditions you described of this current snake are nowhere near being that bad they are certainly not life threatening (imho)... but first you need to get all your facts before doing anything. Maybe they do have temp/humidity gauges but you just can't see them, maybe they just got the snake and haven't set up it's tank properly yet. WHO KNOWS? - but the only way to tell is to get all your facts before jumping to conclusions. Strike up a casual conversation with an employee about the snake... and get the facts.

I really really hope that this thread doesn't turn out like the last one!! so for future posters.... realize that the OP genuinely has their heart in the right place- they want the best conditions for this bp.

yup sparticus said it...
i personally always go the passive way first, by talking directly to the offending person before going over their head to their boss or whoever.
in this situation your either gonna get 1 of 2 reactions from them when you do mention your concerns about the animals, specifically that bp.
1) they could get defensive and ask you where & how you came about YOUR knowledge and basically hint at telling you that they know more simply because they are the one's running the pet store. in this case they will shut you down before you can even get your concerns across. OR...
2) they could appreciate your concern and might even ask for your advice on what they need to correct...but do keep in mind that all places of business, unless otherwise stated, are in the business of making a profit off whatever they sell whether it be products, animals, services, etc. so with this in mind, they're gonna hear what your saying as far as the corrections they need to make but their mind is gonna be going "how much is that gonna cost?"

i've actually been told by someone that they'd rather give the basic minimum in care knowing that someone will make a "pity purchase" instead of spend the whatever extra in upkeep costs that might be more then the actual cost of the animal.
in that case i was like "are you serious?! please dont tell me you have kids at home cuz if you handle your place of business like this, providing the bare minimum in care, do you do that with your kids as well? good god man, cheap isnt ALWAYS better."
so thats my take on the whole thing...the major point being express your concerns in as friendly a way as possible, even if the conditions in question make you wanna ring their necks.
you can start by saying "i noticed some things about this bp's set up that concerns me a little. do you have a minute to speak with me about it?"
that lets them know your concerned without coming across as an attack.
if they are willing to listen to your suggestions i'd first ask them where they got their knowledge of bp setup/care. listen to them carefully, without interrupting, and then go through your knowledge of bp setup and care and tell them where and how you got your knowledge and let them notice the differences. if they dont seem to "get it" and are insisting that their "source" is better or that they've been doing this for x amount of years, simply ask them an A, B or C scenario question, like
"would you rather sell a healthy animal and maintain a good flow of customers and a good reputation, take the chance of an animal possibly dying here and therefore end up with a loss of a potential profit, or have a sick animal die after being sold and end up with an angry customer who's demanding their money back and in that process you'll lose customers because your reputations gone down the crapper?"
if THAT doesnt wake them up then honestly...i'm all outta suggestions. :confused:

Wow you really were ripped into in that last thread, I have NEVER seen anything like that in this forum. This is obviously a very touchy subject for some, and even with my semi-new hands on experience (I've been around snakes since I was young, just never kept them myself until recently) I'd do what I felt was right. People are going to have different opinions on the matter obviously, but you are the only one who actually saw these conditions. If it seems to be a habit, which it sounds like it is given this is the second snake you are reporting, then do what you feel is right. Whether it's speaking to the employees or reporting to the BBB or animal advocacies. Only you can know what the right thing to do is for what you saw. I'd personally take the passive way, like the others said, but only you know if it's an immediate threat or not.

From your description alone, I would not say that the conditions were ideal, however I have been in pet stores that kept their animals in a lot worse conditions. If it were me, I would simply do business else where if you don't like their business and husbandry practices. There is no sense in "rewarding" a business buy shoping with them if you don't like what you see going on in there.

I have one question and one response. Did you buy your rodents from them that day? If so, quit buying the store's product. The only way they stay open is by turning a profit. If you do not support their knowledge and husbandry, then quit supporting their business. I would be willing to bet that you could order your own frozen rodent for the smae price or cheaper than you are paying them.

Have you try to to educate them YET? :rolleyes:

You brought this up before yet previously there was NO solid proof of neglect and you were ALREADY told than that EDUCATION would go a long way compare to jumping the guns and making a report.

So what steps have you been taking toward improving those conditions?

Now if there is neglect and again I don't have proof that there is, why do you keep giving them your business, by giving them your business YOU are supporting the neglect (if neglect) going on at that place.

BTW if no hide, no thermomether, no hygrometer or water dish too small to soak (like in your previous thread) constitute neglect than I and many others are in big trouble :rolleyes:


Talk to them, educate them and see where that goes.

If thing don't change stop giving them your business if what is going there is SO terrible because if it really bother you, you do not want to support their business do you?

I'll repeat what I just said in your other thread, please try to educate them before getting angry! :) I understand this chain of pet stores is well known for problems with their up-keeping, but as I said before, constructive criticism is usually better than anything else!

And if you genuinely have a problem with this store, do NOT purchase anything from them, even if it does save you a bit of money. There's nothing worse than supporting a store that should no be. As has been said in an above post, they thrive on your purchases.. spend the extra money to support a good store. Personally, I support WF Reptiles near me, family owned and ran, very small, very knowledgeable and VERY kind.

I refrained from posting in the other thread hoping someone would bring up a few things that I haven't seen come up yet...

First, you are making reference to the caresheet here on this site. Yes, it's a great caresheet and does lay down some guidelines for IDEAL husbandry for new snake OWNERS. The caresheet here is by no means LAW, nor does it state anywhere that this is the only right way to do things.

You have to also understand that you are dealing with a STORE, not an individual snake keeper. They aren't in the business of snake keeping, and as such, aren't going to go through the time, effort and expense of setting up individual tanks or tubs for each animal, making sure they have two hides, probed thermometers and hygrometers, etc. They will put the snake in an available tank to display for customers. In their ideal scenario, that snake will be there the shortest amount of time possible before going to what is hopefully a permanent home. The fact that there is a water dish, a heat source of some kind, and only one snake in the enclosure is a big step ahead of some of these stores I've heard about. Is this the ideal setup for long term care? Nope. Is this considered "deplorable conditions"? Not even close. If that were the case, you'd have to report pretty much every pet store in existence...

If you don't like the conditions of the animals, simply do not support the business with your dollars. But I don't think it would be in ANYONE'S interest to take such drastic action simply because you don't deem their husbandry to be worthy of your standards. If you feel like putting that much time and energy into fighting for better conditions for that animal, your efforts would be better spent trying to educate than anything.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

I refrained from posting in the other thread hoping someone would bring up a few things that I haven't seen come up yet...

First, you are making reference to the caresheet here on this site. Yes, it's a great caresheet and does lay down some guidelines for IDEAL husbandry for new snake OWNERS. The caresheet here is by no means LAW, nor does it state anywhere that this is the only right way to do things.

You have to also understand that you are dealing with a STORE, not an individual snake keeper. They aren't in the business of snake keeping, and as such, aren't going to go through the time, effort and expense of setting up individual tanks or tubs for each animal, making sure they have two hides, probed thermometers and hygrometers, etc. They will put the snake in an available tank to display for customers. In their ideal scenario, that snake will be there the shortest amount of time possible before going to what is hopefully a permanent home. The fact that there is a water dish, a heat source of some kind, and only one snake in the enclosure is a big step ahead of some of these stores I've heard about. Is this the ideal setup for long term care? Nope. Is this considered "deplorable conditions"? Not even close. If that were the case, you'd have to report pretty much every pet store in existence...

If you don't like the conditions of the animals, simply do not support the business with your dollars. But I don't think it would be in ANYONE'S interest to take such drastic action simply because you don't deem their husbandry to be worthy of your standards. If you feel like putting that much time and energy into fighting for better conditions for that animal, your efforts would be better spent trying to educate than anything.

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I completely agree. I was just talking to someone else about the fact that ideal care in pet stores would cost them more than they are willing to pay. If they spent the money to make their enclosures perfect, they would have to raise the price of the animals itself and ultimately have less sales... which would mean that the snake would most likely grow up at that pet store, which would not be ideal. I'd rather them be in less than ideal conditions for a shorter period of time then be taken home (most likely from a person new to BPs) but would be more likely to receive "proper" care.


As long as the snakes aren't sick and dying, in my opinion, they should be alright. They do have heating and water, and are fed (maybe not as much as they should be). I went to Petco yesterday and was actually surprised at how good the BP they had looked. Good size enclosure for it as well.

I, like many others have to wonder why you are still buying anything from this store? Why would you continue to go into this store, only to be upset when looking at the owner's snake husbandry?

If you are truly upset by the conditions, stop buying from them. Oh but wait, you can buy feeders cheaper there than anywhere else. So, if I get your concerns, you are appalled by some of their business practices but as long as you can save some money on your feeders, you'll continue to go into the store and criticize them.

I don't have a thermometer, nor a hygrometer. As a matter of fact, none of my snakes have a bowl large enough to soak their entire body. So, by your standards, I'm a bad snake owner too. Well, I hate to break the news to you, any breeder with more than a handful of snakes is going to be put into your definition of a bad owner.

I don't understand your posting of this thread. You were asked to do a few things after your first thread and see how that turns out, but you insist on posting messages everytime you see something that YOU think is so bad at this store.

The store's husbandry isn't ideal. But it's not cruel.

Please go back and read many of the suggestions in your first thread. I don't think this forum wants to go through this again.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I don't have a thermometer, nor a hygrometer. As a matter of fact, none of my snakes have a bowl large enough to soak their entire body. So, by your standards, I'm a bad snake owner too. Well, I hate to break the news to you, any breeder with more than a handful of snakes is going to be put into your definition of a bad owner.

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add me to the list of bad owners, half my snakes don't have hides either, on top of no thermometer or hygrometer and only snakes that can soak their whole body are the carpet pythons.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I, like many others have to wonder why you are still buying anything from this store? Why would you continue to go into this store, only to be upset when looking at the owner's snake husbandry?

If you are truly upset by the conditions, stop buying from them. Oh but wait, you can buy feeders cheaper there than anywhere else. So, if I get your concerns, you are appalled by some of their business practices but as long as you can save some money on your feeders, you'll continue to go into the store and criticize them.

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We have to get her mice from SOMEWHERE!!!

That is the thing...We have a couple Petcos near us as well as a Petsmart, and the Petland in question. I don't love petco or petsmart either but...OUR SNAKE HAS TO EAT!

We now make a point to buy all supplies over the internet.(except for food)

SHE HAS TO EAT THOUGH!!!

By the way...

An animal control officer(who did not actually reply in this thread) contacted me over private message asking for the address of the store in question and he lives in the twin cities just like I do. I of course gave the address because I believe this store needs to be held accountable!


I am not out to ruin this pet store by any means but I do want to make them take care of their animals!

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Originally Posted by Superpop

We have to get her mice from SOMEWHERE!!!

That is the thing...We have a couple Petcos near us as well as a Petsmart, and the Petland in question. I don't love petco or petsmart either but...OUR SNAKE HAS TO EAT!

We now make a point to buy all supplies over the internet.(except for food)

SHE HAS TO EAT THOUGH!!!

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Why there then? You memtioned in your post that you to this exact pet store, to save money. You said that this store saves you money over Petsmart and Petland. My question to you, why buy there, buyat these other stores. Let your conscious be your guide.

You don't have to shout, we all agree the snake has to eat, I'm questioning why you're buying from a store where you have so many concerns.

Unless it's to save money, you probably need to buy rodents somewhere else.

I guarantee, I wouldn't buy from a store if I had as many issues that you do.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by Superpop

By the way...

An animal control officer(who did not actually reply in this thread) contacted me over private message asking for the address of the store in question and he lives in the twin cities just like I do. I of course gave the address because I believe this store needs to be held accountable!


I am not out to ruin this pet store by any means but I do want to make them take care of their animals!

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So what's the purpose of your post? You want this store to be held accountable, accountable to whom? You? Why should they have to meet with your approval? You admit you've only owned a snake for some 9-10 months and you're going to be considered the expert here. I don't think so. Yeah, I know, you've read all the caresheets. These are opinions given. I've NEVER used a thermometer, nor a hygrometer. NONE of my breeders have a hide. As a matter of fact, there are times my snakes don't have a water bowl of any size in their enclosure. Ask any breeder, they'll tell you the same thing. You're an example of a little information be dangerous. Keep snakes for a few more years and see if your opinion doesn't change.

Your taking up a fight that doesn't need to be taken.

Show me pictures of a sick/dead/malnurished or otherwise sub standard snake being sold in this store. Seems like he's taken good care of the snake, but not to your standards.

Not trying to ruin the store? Why then make the calls you have? Not trying to ruin the store? Then what is your reason? In the other thread, many explained to you that this isn't animal cruelty, but we gave ideas to you. You never commented on talking to the owner or empoyees. So , now you're back for round 2. What do you want us to say? We gave you all the advice we had to give you in the first thread.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by Superpop

We have to get her mice from SOMEWHERE!!!

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Yeah but not from there well of course unless YOU want to support the so call abuse? Can't have it both ways!

Look online on CL or ebayclassifieds.com for rodent breeders or order bulk online, might cost more but you won't have to deal with that store anymore.

So since you avoided my question did you try to talk to them or educate them yet? Or is reporting them the only thing you really care about to make an example out of them and feel powerful?

Again big difference in store conditions and private owner conditions, also big difference between not ideal and neglect or abuse.

Again YOU are jumping the gun and still do not understand that dialog if there is problem is often the only thing needed.

Yo superpoop, you're a cheap one aren'tcha?

Man up and drop a buck or two more at another store IF what you say is true.

I suspect you are more than just a bit of a dramaqueen. Have fun with that. Just do it elsewhere.

Don't shop there?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Yo superpoop, you're a cheap one aren'tcha?

Man up and drop a buck or two more at another store IF what you say is true.

I suspect you are more than just a bit of a dramaqueen. Have fun with that. Just do it elsewhere.

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I have already stated more than once I am not a fan of pet stores in general and that we now buy all supplies(except food online) so as not to support pet stores.

It's not just that they sell their mice cheaper their. That pet store is by far the closest to our house and we are in that area every week to shop at other stores in the same strip mall.

I am not on this forum to make friends sweetie. I don't give a toss what you think about me. So when you reply like you did just to name call and be immature the only thing that is going to result is you going on ignore.

Bye now!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Look online on CL or ebayclassifieds.com for rodent breeders or order bulk online, might cost more but you won't have to deal with that store anymore.

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Thanks! I'll do that. I would rather not support pet stores in general.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

So since you avoided my question did you try to talk to them or educate them yet? Or is reporting them the only thing you really care about to make an example out of them and feel powerful?

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No I haven't but what good would it do anyway? This is not some tiny pet store. It's part of a chain that already has a bad reputation. They are not going to change if I ask them to.

Do you think if I ask them to stop buying disease ridden dogs from puppy mills and then selling them for a thousand bucks they would listen to me either?

If it was a small family owned pet store I might actually try to talk to them about the situations but that is not the case. A Petland store is not going to listen to me.

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Originally Posted by Superpop

If it was a small family owned pet store I might actually try to talk to them about the situations but that is not the case. A Petland store is not going to listen to me.

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They're definitely not going to listen if you don't try to talk to them. You may actually be pleasantly surprised. Just because they're a chain store with a bad rep doesn't mean the individual employees in that store don't care. If you try talking to one of them, you will at least know that you've done all that you can for the animal. That was the whole point, right?

Because now that you're acting like it's a waste of your time to try to educate them, it really looks like you DID just come in guns blazing with your limited knowledge and superior attitude. What's the point of that?

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

So what's the purpose of your post? You want this store to be held accountable, accountable to whom? You? Why should they have to meet with your approval? You admit you've only owned a snake for some 9-10 months and you're going to be considered the expert here. I don't think so. Yeah, I know, you've read all the caresheets. These are opinions given. I've NEVER used a thermometer, nor a hygrometer. NONE of my breeders have a hide. As a matter of fact, there are times my snakes don't have a water bowl of any size in their enclosure. Ask any breeder, they'll tell you the same thing. You're an example of a little information be dangerous. Keep snakes for a few more years and see if your opinion doesn't change.

Jim Smith

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You say you never use a thermometer etc etc etc. How to you manage your snakes heat? you just guess? You figure it just doesnt really matter? Im curious for your reasoning behind this. Do you just manage humidity/heat of your whole snake room?
Do you have no hides because your snake is in a dark drawer and feels safe? If you throw a hide in their box do they use it? Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Johan

You say you never use a thermometer etc etc etc. How to you manage your snakes heat? you just guess? You figure it just doesnt really matter? Im curious for your reasoning behind this. Do you just manage humidity/heat of your whole snake room?
Do you have no hides because your snake is in a dark drawer and feels safe? If you throw a hide in their box do they use it? Thanks :)

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assuming he has the same theories as I do, ill answer that

you manage it with an IR gun of some sort and a thermostat. yes it does matter and thats why I use what I use.

Humidity is hard to measure accurately, moisture doesn't spread evenly in air by any means, thats why you can have same humidity gauges next to each other and give different readings. I find it better to gauge it by how the cage looks and feels. Moisture on the glass and wet looking substrate indicates high humidity, Dry substrate means low humidity, it not hard to figure out the balance.

I only use hides on snakes that need them, observe their behavior and eating habits, half my snakes don't need hides, so why use them, their fine in the racks.

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Originally Posted by Johan

You say you never use a thermometer etc etc etc. How to you manage your snakes heat? you just guess? You figure it just doesnt really matter? Im curious for your reasoning behind this. Do you just manage humidity/heat of your whole snake room?
Do you have no hides because your snake is in a dark drawer and feels safe? If you throw a hide in their box do they use it? Thanks :)

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See, there you go showing your ignorance. I use an infrared heat gun. I can check mulitple enclosures and know that each temperature recorded will be calibrated with the same gun. You can't do that with thermometers. Each can give you a different reading. So, to answer your questions, no I don't guess, I use technology. You ask me whether it doesn't really matter? Do you honestly think you have any of the answers, much less all of them.

Unlike your precious carsheets, I don't monitor my humidity. I have water bowls that provide enough humidity. Do you honestly think that these snakes live in controlled temps and humidity in the wild? So what if my humidity ranges from 40-70% at times. I know my snakes don't, but you probably do.

When you have a 1600 gram snake in a 32 qt enclosure, you don't have room for a hide. They are all in racks with solid sides, so if they want they can dig under the paper to hide but they don't usually.

See how much you can learn by listening? Stop talking and listen to us. We've been giving you the correct answers, but you continue to insist it has to be your way.

From your descriptions, THESE SNAKES ARE NOT BEING ABUSED. The husbandry is different than you've read on caresheets, but they are okay. Maybe not ideal, but okay. Stop preaching until you've read the Bible a few times.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

S
From your descriptions, THESE SNAKES ARE NOT BEING ABUSED. The husbandry is different than you've read on caresheets, but they are okay. Maybe not ideal, but okay. Stop preaching until you've read the Bible a few times.

Jim Smith

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jim in his defense, hes not the OP, he was just asking.

j_h_smith

It seems you may be confusing Johan with me. Before you spout off you should really at least spout off to the right person.

Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Johan

You say you never use a thermometer etc etc etc. How to you manage your snakes heat? you just guess? You figure it just doesnt really matter? Im curious for your reasoning behind this. Do you just manage humidity/heat of your whole snake room?
Do you have no hides because your snake is in a dark drawer and feels safe? If you throw a hide in their box do they use it? Thanks :)

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You mention managing humidity like your little hygrometer is accurate. Not by a long shot. Do you own a wet bulb hygrometer? Do you know the calculations on how to determine the actual humidity at any given temperature? So unless you have a couple hundred dollars in heat guns, and wet bulb hygrometers, I challenge you to prove that your set up actually correct.

If you want to stand there and cast stones, prove to me that your set up is correct.

Doesn't feel good being criticized does it? Well that's what you're doing to this pet store. We tried to guide you to the best of our abilities, but you make phone calls, invite the doggy deputy to visit this store. All for what reason, because you, a self professed expert with 10 months of experience determined that because he wasn't doing it your way, he was abusing the snakes.

I've been doing this for over 20 year and I'm still learning almost everyday. I can't imagine how you've become the complete herpetologist in just 10 months.

The members of this forum aren't here to mess with your head, we try our best to answer questions with reason. That's why this forum is so well liked. If you ask a question, you will usually get a couple of really good answers.

Stop, go back and read many of the comments in your first thread. There are some really good suggestions and viewpoints.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

You mention managing humidity like your little hygrometer is accurate. Not by a long shot. Do you own a wet bulb hygrometer? Do you know the calculations on how to determine the actual humidity at any given temperature? So unless you have a couple hundred dollars in heat guns, and wet bulb hygrometers, I challenge you to prove that your set up actually correct.

If you want to stand there and cast stones, prove to me that your set up is correct.

Doesn't feel good being criticized does it? Well that's what you're doing to this pet store. We tried to guide you to the best of our abilities, but you make phone calls, invite the doggy deputy to visit this store. All for what reason, because you, a self professed expert with 10 months of experience determined that because he wasn't doing it your way, he was abusing the snakes.

I've been doing this for over 20 year and I'm still learning almost everyday. I can't imagine how you've become the complete herpetologist in just 10 months.

The members of this forum aren't here to mess with your head, we try our best to answer questions with reason. That's why this forum is so well liked. If you ask a question, you will usually get a couple of really good answers.

Stop, go back and read many of the comments in your first thread. There are some really good suggestions and viewpoints.

Jim Smith

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That would be ME not Johan.

If you want to attack someone at least attack the right person!

You are obviously not reading this thread very well because you are merging Johan and myself into one person.

I am the one with the problem with the pet store.

He is the one who asked about your set-up.

We are different people.

Or,

We could simply stop attacking each other in the first place and agree to disagree.

I have to say that, at the pace it is deteriorating presently, this thread will be locked or deleted sooner rather than later and some people may well end up with infractions.

A disagreement about what constitutes abuse rather than different husbandry methods has no need to get to that level.

Type the rants out if you must, delete them afterwards if you can, and go hug someone or something you love if you have em.


dr del

NEVER MIND.
:redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface ::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redfac e::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redfa ce::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redface::redf ace::redface::redface::redface::redface:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

See, there you go showing your ignorance. I use an infrared heat gun. I can check mulitple enclosures and know that each temperature recorded will be calibrated with the same gun. You can't do that with thermometers. Each can give you a different reading. So, to answer your questions, no I don't guess, I use technology. You ask me whether it doesn't really matter? Do you honestly think you have any of the answers, much less all of them.

Unlike your precious carsheets, I don't monitor my humidity. I have water bowls that provide enough humidity. Do you honestly think that these snakes live in controlled temps and humidity in the wild? So what if my humidity ranges from 40-70% at times. I know my snakes don't, but you probably do.

When you have a 1600 gram snake in a 32 qt enclosure, you don't have room for a hide. They are all in racks with solid sides, so if they want they can dig under the paper to hide but they don't usually.

See how much you can learn by listening? Stop talking and listen to us. We've been giving you the correct answers, but you continue to insist it has to be your way.

From your descriptions, THESE SNAKES ARE NOT BEING ABUSED. The husbandry is different than you've read on caresheets, but they are okay. Maybe not ideal, but okay. Stop preaching until you've read the Bible a few times.

Jim Smith

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A heat gun is a form of thermometer. It is a tool that measures the temperature...I was simply asking questions. If I went to your facility, id ask you how you measured temps, humidity etc. If you responded with I dont use thermometers, and tht you use heat guns etc and that you measure humidity by feeling the substrate etc etc id be fine. Second, it seems you have mistaken me to being the OP.

Your so busy getting upset at the OP your just coming across as very arrogant to put it nicely. Aggressiveness doesnt get your point across, it just makes more hostility. Relax, and be respectful and maybe people will listen to you.
Take care

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

assuming he has the same theories as I do, ill answer that

you manage it with an IR gun of some sort and a thermostat. yes it does matter and thats why I use what I use.

Humidity is hard to measure accurately, moisture doesn't spread evenly in air by any means, thats why you can have same humidity gauges next to each other and give different readings. I find it better to gauge it by how the cage looks and feels. Moisture on the glass and wet looking substrate indicates high humidity, Dry substrate means low humidity, it not hard to figure out the balance.

I only use hides on snakes that need them, observe their behavior and eating habits, half my snakes don't need hides, so why use them, their fine in the racks.

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Thanks for the insightful post :). You have to admit that in a fully lighted petshop, it would be nice to give the little guy somewhere to hide. Anyways, have a good one

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I have one question and one response. Did you buy your rodents from them that day? If so, quit buying the store's product. The only way they stay open is by turning a profit. If you do not support their knowledge and husbandry, then quit supporting their business. I would be willing to bet that you could order your own frozen rodent for the smae price or cheaper than you are paying them.

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I didn't read this whole thread but I agree with Tim. You don't like the conditions at a pet store, don't buy ANYTHING there.

As far as trying to correct the store's husbandry... that's up to you but you can't save 'em all.

Ok I have stayed out of this and just sat back. But OP you call the care of the BP at the pet store cruel and not appropriate . So let me say this. Do you really think your snake and any snake in captivity likes being stuck in a tub or tank regardless of how ideal your or any owner or breeders setup is. Do you really think your snake likes being stuck in a tank where he cant move freely, a tub that when full grown he will take up almost all of it. I'm pretty sure all snakes in captivity would rather be in the wild. I don't care how long of a captive bred blood line they are from..... They are WILD animals. So if your really all about your snakes well being then maybe you should hop on a plain, fly to Africa and set yours free. Because it would be a lot happier being free then in a tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottNBecky

Ok I have stayed out of this and just sat back. But OP you call the care of the BP at the pet store cruel and not appropriate . So let me say this. Do you really think your snake and any snake in captivity likes being stuck in a tub or tank regardless of how ideal your or any owner or breeders setup is. Do you really think your snake likes being stuck in a tank where he cant move freely, a tub that when full grown he will take up almost all of it. I'm pretty sure all snakes in captivity would rather be in the wild. I don't care how long of a captive bred blood line they are from..... They are WILD animals. So if your really all about your snakes well being then maybe you should hop on a plain, fly to Africa and set yours free. Because it would be a lot happier being free then in a tank.

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Isn't most of Africa a plain? But I digress.

Balderdash. You have no better, or more valid clue, than the op did about what makes a snake happy. There are hundreds of thousands of ball pythons living it tiny spaces, some with hides some without, that regularly eat, shed, grow and reproduce. They aren't stressed. They aren't, as far as I can ascertain, unhappy. In fact, do snakes even know what happy is or are you geniuses doing a little too much anthropomorphizing?

The op obviously has some issues with a lack of grandeur that are probably a daily challenge for him. Coming here, where he thought such grand gestures as he is wont to make would be not only well received but accompanied by the accolades of the masses, his disappointment has been a bitter pill for which we can all be glad he IS capable of swallowing.

op, your concern was nice. Just about everything else could have been done better. Don't go getting all butthurt because people tell you the truth,even if the ones like me don't put any saccharine on it to make it easier for you take, you're not here to make friends and most of us are not here to cater to dramaqueens.

Quite your female dog emulationating and go to the other store, the one that is not so convenient for you, the one that may cost you a buck or two more. If you're either too broke or too cheap to do that, get rid of the snake or quite complaining. YOU have made EVERY choice that has brought you here. Just you.

[QUOTE=wilomn;1526234]Isn't most of Africa a plain? But I digress.
Yes most of Africa is but that's where they are from.


Balderdash. You have no better, or more valid clue, than the op did about what makes a snake happy. There are hundreds of thousands of ball pythons living it tiny spaces, some with hides some without, that regularly eat, shed, grow and reproduce. They aren't stressed. They aren't, as far as I can ascertain, unhappy. In fact, do snakes even know what happy is or are you geniuses doing a little too much anthropomorphizing?

I was being sarcastic thank you very much!!! I was making the point that the OP was upset with the care of the BP. Well despite the fact that the set up of the tank was not that bad, I was being a smart ass telling the OP to take it back to Africa .... Ect I think every animal is able to feel emotion. Does a dog like being stuck in a cage all day....... Would a pet bird rather be outside flying free...... Well I can't say for sure because I'm not a snake lol but I don't think any snake likes being stuck in a tub or tank . Do you honestly think when your snakes are roam

Do you honestly think when your snakes are roaming the cage or tank or tub pushing at the top going back and forth ect...you think They are doing it for fun.... No they want out. Im not trying to be all "anthropomorphizing" lol sorry that word made me smile lol. I own a lot of snakes so yeah I keep mine in tubs. So I can't be mad and preach to others when I do the same. That's not what I was trying to do.
But I do think it's time for this to be moved to the QT Room. It's getting a little to heated ... More than it ever should have.

Sorry for the messed up posts lol.... I really am not a big fan of this tapatalk thing lol

If one's sarcasm fails is it then the fault of the reader?

I think not.

Practice practice practice.

The op has some serious personal issues that need to be dealt with. You S&orB, just need to work on your humor. From my point of view which is often only seen through mine own eyes.

Lol true true. You make a valid point.... But i wasn't trying to start a fight with anyone. But like I said I think it's time to just let this one go.

@OP.

That doesnt sound like neglect to me.

Heres what i consider neglect.

Heres a thread i posted on a local petstore. Unlike you i took pictures.

If you guys wanna bash me go ahead but i at least had pics ;)

The petstore this was taken in was like this for 2 weeks. then i finally decided to take pics before being banned from every entering the store for voicing out my opinion and causing loss of business to the store.

@ OP

Go get proof

Hmm it didnt post link here it is

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hop-a-few-pics