Myth or factual?

As a first time BP owner, I am encountering a number of opinions from people who all think they know best since their friend has a BP... I am looking for some clarification on these statements, from seasoned keepers... I have done a fair amount of research on my own as well, and I am pretty sure I know the answers, but I would love to hear opinions from seasoned keepers :o)

* "don't keep the snakes food items near it at all"
* "don't feed the snake until after it defecates from the last meal"
* "only feed it one mouse every 3 or 4 weeks"
* "don't give the snake a bigger enclosure because it will grow too fast"

I have only had this snake for almost 3 weeks now. The first day (a Saturday) I had "her," she ate an adult mouse with no hesitation. The following Saturday, she readily ate another adult mouse with no hesitation again. Last Saturday, I bought a 3 week old rat for her when I was on my way home in the morning. When I took her out of the "cage" I noticed her eyes had gone cloudy, but I offered the rat anyway. She wasn't interested in eating, so I put the rat in a hamster cage, and put her back in her cage. The rat has been biding it's time in the hamster cage (with some feed and water) that I kept on top of the snake cage.

When I took the snake out of her cage tonight, I noticed that her eyes were starting to clear up and she was very interested in the cage containing the rat. I removed all the decor from her cage, put the rat in her cage and then put her back in... She immediately struck and ate the rat, and I then replaced everything in her cage without disturbing her too much.

Since she is in an Exo-terra terrarium, I have an absorbant pad on the floor of the terrarium with an 8" crock for water, a moist hide, another hide over the UTH and a branch mounted on a piece of slate tile. The humidity sits around 65% and heat on the cool side is about 80C, hot side is approximately 90C, give or take... She seems to be content, spending equal time in both hides, but a little more time in the moist hide right now, I am assuming because of the impending shed.

Thanks in advance!
Michelle

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Originally Posted by workingdawgs

* "don't keep the snakes food items near it at all"
* "don't feed the snake until after it defecates from the last meal"
* "only feed it one mouse every 3 or 4 weeks"
* "don't give the snake a bigger enclosure because it will grow too fast"

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I only need one word to respond to these claims:

wut
:confused:

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I only need one word to respond to these claims:

wut
:confused:

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+ 1

None of this "advise" is helpful. My balls eat weekly. They can go along time without pooing. Some breed rats in the same room as snakes. As far as a smaller cage, it's not about then growing, it's about keeping them comfortable. Some snakes stress out when given too much open space



sent from my EVO

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don't keep the snakes food items near it at all

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Many BP breeders also breed rats in the same rooms as the BPs with no trouble, just make sure you wash your hands after handling any rats or other furry animals or you may get bit reaching in.

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don't feed the snake until after it defecates from the last meal

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This is just completely wrong. You should just be making sure your BP is defecating from time to time. Each BP's metabolism is different but about once of month you should see some.

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only feed it one mouse every 3 or 4 weeks

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Fed you BP either mice or rats. Size wise make sure that the girth of the prey item is about as thick or slightly thicker than your BP's thickest part of its body every 1-2 weeks. Your BP will not overeat, BP's will stop eating if they are not hungry.

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don't give the snake a bigger enclosure because it will grow too fast

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The size of enclosure makes no difference in how fast they grow. The snakes metabolism and how much you feed it is how fast they will grow.

Also I'd recommend checking out the BP.net caresheet http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

This advise is bogus!

1. Has some merit to it; It is wise to separate your BP and their live/thawed food item away from their prying noses, just so they don't get into the "killer instinct" if you try to handle or etc. But it does help ten fold in some cases if you "scent" the BP's cage and essentially turn on that killer instinct by setting the meal in their vicinity so they can smell it for 30 minutes or so to help spike their interest during feeding time.

2. WRONG - BP's don't defecate on any schedule; especially at a young age when they retain much more than they let out. They can often go months without producing stool. Feed young BP's around every 5 days, and adults every 7-10 days.

3. Double wrong, unless you want your BP to be thin, and just giving it enough energy to get by, go ahead and do this. If you want a healthy, happy BP feed as suggested.
Young (Every 5 days) - Adult (Every 7-10 days)
Each meal should be around 10-15% of their body weight, or roughly the size of their body at it's widest point.

4. False, if your BP is given a larger enclosure it will either have no effect in growth rate at all, or a negative effect. As BP's prefer smaller cages to larger ones; they feel more safe. So in a larger cage, the finicky eaters BP's are, they may feel unsafe and refuse a majority of offered meals.

Welcome to BP.net!
You will find all the information you need here - and then some!

The first has a bit of truth but they adjust like we do to familiar smells although per senting isn't really possible if the rodents are in the same room the rest is 100% myths. You will find in general that there are almost as many myths as fact when it comes to royals double check every statement and get some reputable books to back up what you read. I like Philippe de Vosjoli and D&T Barker both have very good books. The Barkers in particular is very very full and is well researched and cited. They can help separate fact from fiction. Remember that in the early days the knowledge of royals was very poor and loose some of the myths were 'fact' 30 years ago.

* "don't keep the snakes food items near it at all"
I keep rats & snakes in the same room always have

* "don't feed the snake until after it defecates from the last meal"
My snakes are fed every 5-7 days

* "only feed it one mouse every 3 or 4 weeks"
I feed appropriately sized meals every 5-7 days

* "don't give the snake a bigger enclosure because it will grow too fast"
Wrong wrong Wrong

You stated that the hot side is 90C, I'm sure you meant 90F

Well, there you have it! I hope you find the answers helpful. There is an awful lot of disinformation out there, and we here at BP.net are doing our best to set the record straight.

There may be different paths to the same goal (glass tanks vs plastic tubs...live feeding vs pre-killed...feeding in or out of enclosure, etc) and we totally respect that and the choices that people make. But at the same time, there is plenty of pure fiction out there as well and you happened to supply a very nice example of it. ;)

Welcome aboard! :handshake I hope you'll stick around and share your snake with us!

Welcome to the wonderful addiction we call Ball Pythons!

First of all a big Congratulations on having the sense to investigate these claims in the first place, instead of just believing everything you are told.

Second, as you have learned, the only thing that brings more know-it-alls out of the woodwork than being pregnant is owning a snake.

Third, your questions have all been answered already, but don't let that stop you from searching and researching. There is a LOT of misinformation out there. What helps me is any time I hear or read something on ball python care, the first thing I do is see how many places I find the same information. If two sources say "do this" but 18 say " don't do this" I'm inclined to believe the majority.

It also helps if you can find people who are local who have owned and bred these snakes for years, but even that doesn't guarantee what they do is right or best. As in the case of an acquaintance of mine who has bred balls for years, and still believes that no male ball python should weigh over 1000 grams, otherwise they are worthless for breeding. She deliberately withholds food from her males to keep them small, and firmly believes if they reach 1000 grams, she must then get rid of them as they won't breed or become sterile.

While it IS true an overweight male is less likely to breed, there are dozens if not hundreds of breeders who have many males over 1000 grams who still produce offspring each season.

Bottom line, take what you hear and read with a grain of salt, and ask as many people as you can when you have questions.

Gale

Yea i always keep snakes and rats in same room to. They really dont sit in feeding mode 24/7 unless i got rats out cleaning them then they tend to smell em

* "don't keep the snakes food items near it at all"

This can be true, sometimes keeping food near your snake can stress it out. But usually only if it's in sight but unattainable. If they can smell it, it's okay because in the wild ball pythons usually take refuge in burrows wild rodents made.

* "don't feed the snake until after it defecates from the last meal"

I completely disagree, unless the snake hasn't gone to the bathroom for a month.

* "only feed it one mouse every 3 or 4 weeks"

For ball pythons of every age the time of eating is AROUND one week. Younger ball pythons eat more frequently than older ones.

* "don't give the snake a bigger enclosure because it will grow too fast"

Snake's size like every animal is based on genetics and the amount of food. The reason for a smaller enclosure is more to keep the snake from being stressed, for a big enclosure without a proper amount of hides will most likely make a ball python feel insecure.

I feed mine weekly whether they have deficated or not. And I dont think the size of the enclosure has to do with how fast they will grow, that has to do with how much they eat and as long as they have some nice tight hides a big enclosure is fine as long as it holds humidity and temps are right.

* "don't keep the snakes food items near it at all"
I just built a rat rack in the same room as the snakes stay.

* "don't feed the snake until after it defecates from the last meal"
I feed weekly altho have had a male fast for 6 months before he began to eat again. Let the snake tell you what he wants. If he eats weekly. Feek weekly

* "only feed it one mouse every 3 or 4 weeks"
I recommend trying to get your snake on rats as they are more nutritious. but again I feed every week

* "don't give the snake a bigger enclosure because it will grow too fast"
this is so wrong on so many levels. Let me ask you this. If you have a baby and you keep him in a shoe box does that mean your going to change the rate he grows? No Is he going to grow at a different rate if he grew up outdoors and had all the room he could ever want? no. The size of the enclosure isnt going to change the rate the snake grows. It is genetically disposed to only get so big. Now an enclosure thats to big may cause him to be nervous and have issues feeding but it wont effect how big he gets

Thanks for all the replies!! Just for the record, I knew those pieces of "advice" were not factual because they just weren't logical... I posted for the opinions to prove my point to those few friends that are "snake experts", that even though I have just started keeping a snake, and researching about BP husbandry, I am not a dumb blonde chick who just tossed a snake in a cage and overfed/mishandled it/did everything wrong... lol... Heck, I know I come from a background in raising/training dogs for protection sports, and that dogs are different from snakes, but some things are just plain common sense! Plus I grew up in a very rural area which helps out with the common sense around animals/reptiles....

And I am thoroughly embarrassed at having stated that I keep my snake at 90C... of course I meant 90F, lol:oops:

In any event, the snake is coming from a home where she had no belly heat, no water crock, no substrate at all... just a regular 60watt bulb in the heat lamp and a hide, so now she is in paradise with her home :)

Thanks again!!
Michelle

I agree with all of the posts in this thread, and all have given very good information. However, I did want to make 2 comments regarding information that I did read in this thread. Below are the quotes including the information I wanted to expound on.

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Originally Posted by Agent73

Your BP will not overeat, BP's will stop eating if they are not hungry.

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This is not completely true. A bal python will overeat, and can become "overweight". I have had a female that I got as an adult in 2006, and I fed her every week, an medium rat. The first year she laid eggs, they were all slugs, with the exception of one egg that died before it hatched. After speaking with many people, excessive fat stores can be the culprit of fertilized ovum not having enough room to develop, thus causing slugs. I have since had to cut this girl back to smaller meals every 10-14 days to regulate her weight and get viable eggs from her.

While this is not the case with every snake, it is possible to overfeed a ball python. A fat snake is not a healthy snake.

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Originally Posted by Raverthug

I recommend trying to get your snake on rats as they are more nutritious.

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That debate has been held for many, many years, and I have never seen any data that suggests that one rodent is more nutritious. However, it has been proven that mice are leaner. If you can supply some documentation of this please do so, as I have been looking for information on the subject for a long time, and always enjoy adding to the articles that I have read. The common argument for getting a ball python onto rats, is that it is much easier to feed an adult BP rats, since a rat gets larger than an adult BP can eat, it makes it much easier to select one food item that is appropriately sized, versus having to feed a large adult female 9 mice a week. Switching babies to rats is easier than attempting to switch a 2 year old animal that has only eaten one type of food item it's entire life.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

That debate has been held for many, many years, and I have never seen any data that suggests that one rodent is more nutritious. However, it has been proven that mice are leaner. If you can supply some documentation of this please do so, as I have been looking for information on the subject for a long time, and always enjoy adding to the articles that I have read. The common argument for getting a ball python onto rats, is that it is much easier to feed an adult BP rats, since a rat gets larger than an adult BP can eat, it makes it much easier to select one food item that is appropriately sized, versus having to feed a large adult female 9 mice a week. Switching babies to rats is easier than attempting to switch a 2 year old animal that has only eaten one type of food item it's entire life.

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I dont have any. Its just something I have always been told since I got into snakes.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

That debate has been held for many, many years, and I have never seen any data that suggests that one rodent is more nutritious. However, it has been proven that mice are leaner. If you can supply some documentation of this please do so, as I have been looking for information on the subject for a long time, and always enjoy adding to the articles that I have read. The common argument for getting a ball python onto rats, is that it is much easier to feed an adult BP rats, since a rat gets larger than an adult BP can eat, it makes it much easier to select one food item that is appropriately sized, versus having to feed a large adult female 9 mice a week. Switching babies to rats is easier than attempting to switch a 2 year old animal that has only eaten one type of food item it's entire life.

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Rodent Pro has the charts posted from a 2002 USDA study of the Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey Fed in Zoos, in which Protien, Fat, Calorie/Gram, Vitamin, and Mineral content is listed.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

The U.S. Department of Agriculture report can be viewed here in PDF.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf

Hope this helps...

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

Rodent Pro has the charts posted from a 2002 USDA study of the Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey Fed in Zoos, in which Protien, Fat, Calorie/Gram, Vitamin, and Mineral content is listed.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

The U.S. Department of Agriculture report can be viewed here in PDF.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf

Hope this helps...

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The fact that that sort of nutritional content is available for feeder rodents is pretty amazing! What will be even more astonishing is when someone does a study that shows what ball pythons (or any other species, because I'm sure they vary a lot) actually NEED, nutritionally speaking. That's the part that is still completely unknown. Mostly people just make vague assumptions based on our own completely alien human dietary requirements.

I guess I don't understand why a study would need to be done about what the nutritional requirements of snakes is. In my opinion, that study has already been done by nature. Malnourished snakes would not survive. Simply observing what each species of snake eats in their native environment should be all the study needed. Coming from a background in dogs, I firmly believe that the best diet for an animal is one which it would be eating if it were in a native environment, and that variety should be provided.

When I was feeding my dogs a prey model diet, they rarely got whole prey, but I always tried to keep variety in protein and organ sources for them, and in approximate proper percentages. I watched my dogs and knew when they needed more bone/organ/fat/protein, and did my best to provide that for them in the form of "frankenprey" aka, a mishmash of different sources that provide roughly the right amounts of each. As a result, my dogs were very healthy and robust, with good energy (not hyper uncontrolled energy, but focused energy and an off switch so they could relax). There were no problems with parasites, smelly skin/coat, chewing/licking... Their coats were shiny and their breath was fresh (for a dog, lol)

I would be interested in gathering more information about what ball pythons would eat in their native environment, and in what the availability (on average) would be for those prey animals. How does a ball python, in their native environment, hunt for food? Do they wait for the prey to come to them, or do they actively hunt? If they actively hunt for prey, do they range far to find prey?

Anyone have any of this information? I will be researching as well, but the more information that can be gathered, the better informed choices I can make for my BP :)

Thanks in advance.....
Michelle

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

Rodent Pro has the charts posted from a 2002 USDA study of the Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey Fed in Zoos, in which Protien, Fat, Calorie/Gram, Vitamin, and Mineral content is listed.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

The U.S. Department of Agriculture report can be viewed here in PDF.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf

Hope this helps...

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Thanks a bunch. I have actually seen the USDoA report before, but am always looking for other info. I will definitely look at the rodentpro stuff. My main point of my post was thet we hear this generalization often in the industry, but very little data is ever presented with the theory.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Thanks a bunch. I have actually seen the USDoA report before, but am always looking for other info. I will definitely look at the rodentpro stuff. My main point of my post was thet we hear this generalization often in the industry, but very little data is ever presented with the theory.

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The Rodent Pro posting is just the charts from the USDA report. I know what you mean about the lack of hard data. I have been looking also and The USDA report is the only thing I can find. Everything else is just opinions and observations based on reptile keepers experience. I can only imagine the time, money, and facilities that are required to conduct such studies...