Need Serious Opinions on STRANGE "object" that my male ball python "passed"

OK, this "thing" was found in my ball python's tub this evening. I have no idea what to think of it. Here's two pics of what I found in the tub. More descriptions and pics to follow these first pics.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ect_021011.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...t_021011_a.jpg

Now, some descriptions. There was a normal solid waste and "pee" in the tub. No real amount of blood in the tub, but there is some small amount of blood on the vent area of the python. Here's the elimination (weird object removed):

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...t_021011_c.jpg

And here's the vent area (sorry, it's a little washed out by the flash):

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...t_021011_b.jpg

The area above the vent seems puffy, like there is something else in there. I have probed this python and it is male, and was also sold to me as male by a reputable breeder. He has also locked up with a female this breeding season and I've caught him doing normal male courtship activities.

Now, some description of the "object": it seems to be "anatomical". It does not seem like a foreign object. It also seems to have vessels on it. I would describe it as a very thin, yet stable (it did not rupture when I lifted it with tongs) connective tissue-like sac. It is full of an aqueous fluid, with no air inside. The fluid does not seem viscous. There is NO odor coming from this thing either. I did not rupture it because I plan to take it into the vet office with the python tomorrow. There does NOT seem to be ANY indication that this "object" was once attached to the python's anatomy...no tear, no other 'tissue", no structure that would indicate an entry/exit into/out of the "object, nothing! Here are some closer pics of the "object":

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q..._Object008.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...t_021011_d.jpg

Other that some "puffy" feeling as described above, the python seems fine.

PLEASE, don't just reply, "Take it to the Vet!". I fully intend to do that, but have to wait until the morning. BUT, if ANYONE has any insight whatsoever as to what the heck this is, I'd be eternally grateful to get info.

Much thanks in advance!

I have no idea, but that is crazy. Kind of looks like a translucent egg :O

My thoughts exactly Spitzu, but this is a male so that should not be possible. Or is it possible that during the lock something was introduced in the male's body and developed?
I don't get what happened here, very curious what the vet will say.

The "object was soft, and the casing was extremely thin. I don't believe it to be any sort of egg, from a snake (even considering that the animal may be hermaphrodite- don't even know if that is possible in BP).

Upon some more research, it may be part of a tape worm cycle :tears: Although, these parasites don't seem to be common in pythons??? Rodents are frequent carriers of them, though. Maybe ingested an infected meal??? It would be just the sort of thing to happen to me (I have the world's crappiest luck-seems like: if I touch it, it will go badly :mad: ).

He's still going to the vet tomorrow. I'm also having my husband (a microbiologist) take some of the pooh to the lab tomorrow to check it out under the scope (vet will also do that).

Anyone have tape worm issues with a ball python before??? Has anyone had an import have them. Anyone with one get them from their food?

that is not a tape worm. tape worms are flat and long. If I remember right they only infect mamals. That is just crazy. I want to know what the vet said. I take it back they can infect snakes but I know that is not a tapeworm

How SURE are you its a male?

That is fantastically interesting.

I have had no experience with such expulsions (hard stuff, yes, water bags no...), but will be watching to see what you find with the vet.

maybe its fat from the rats it has eaten, ya prolly not it but thats all i got.

there is another thread just like this one on here somewhere. not sure what the outcome was. and a hermaphrodite snake is possible from what i have read but is very rare. somebody on here had an old BP that one just popped out eggs.

Perhaps its really a female and its a premature egg...thats my guess but really I have no idea. Let us know when you find out!

Ive seen this 3 times now. 2 with corn snakes and one with ball python.

Its a female that has gone through menstrual cycle and laid slug. Should be more coming out soon unless shes smaller. its not uncommon for sexually mature females to do this especially colubrids.


Picture curtosy of janet aka Edfspythons.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMG_3857-1.jpg

My guess would be some type of fatty tumor that came lose with this last digestive movement.

Looks like an egg that didn't get calcified. you can see the vein, yolk, ect..I'd say your boy is a girl..

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Originally Posted by rdoyle

that is not a tape worm. tape worms are flat and long. If I remember right they only infect mamals. That is just crazy. I want to know what the vet said. I take it back they can infect snakes but I know that is not a tapeworm

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Correct, THIS is not a tapeworm, but it may be a part of its life cycle called a hydatid cyst, an form of asexual reproduction for a few species of tape worm.

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Originally Posted by BbyBoa

My guess would be some type of fatty tumor that came lose with this last digestive movement.

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This is an interesting proposal. But it is really aqueous, unlike the fatty tumors I've seen in dogs. Didn't think along this line, though.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Ive seen this 3 times now. 2 with corn snakes and one with ball python.

Its a female that has gone through menstrual cycle and laid slug. Should be more coming out soon unless shes smaller. its not uncommon for sexually mature females to do this especially colubrids.


Picture curtosy of janet aka Edfspythons.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...IMG_3857-1.jpg

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Ooooh! Those do look like the same thing. So weird because this snake probes male on both sides, and does male courting behavior and has locked up with a female. It would floor me if he's a girl. I am giving serious consideration to hermaphrodite. I'm the the phone now trying to get an appt with the vet.

There are things called hydatid cysts in the life cycle of a few species of tape worm that look EXACTLY like this thing too. I'd take a hermaphroditic python over worms any day :please:

I was freaking out a bit last night researching parasites, but the photo you've provided sure seems applicable. Thanks!

The vet is booked today (and herp vets are NOT plenty where I live), so I have an appt with him tomorrow morning and they'll call me if they have any cancellations today.

Thanks for all of the comments and opinions so far everyone!

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Originally Posted by jsschrei

Correct, THIS is not a tapeworm, but it may be a part of its life cycle called a hydatid cyst, an form of asexual reproduction for a few species of tape worm.

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I'm mystified and have no certain answers....but I do have two guesses.

IF it's some tapeworm cyst...maybe it was contained just like that within the rodent. The rodent passes through the digestive system and goes the way of all food, but the cyst within it does not get digested and passes along with the rest of the waste the next time the snake eliminates. I would think it unlikely that your snake is actually infected with tapeworms and that cyst was just passing through, so to speak.

The other guess is that it's an egg in its early stages of development and that your boy, is indeed, a girl. I have heard of a case where a small breeder had a male/female pair she was SURE of....they mated as expected....but it turned out to be the "male" of the pair that laid the eggs. Turns out both snakes were mis-sexed.

PLEASE keep us updated with what the vet says! I'm very curious about it!

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Originally Posted by jsschrei

Ooooh! Those do look like the same thing. So weird because this snake probes male on both sides

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Problem is I have seen female probing as male also which was the result of injury that occurred during probing (obviously not done properly in that case)

Any chance you can get this animal pop by someone experienced?

My first guess seeing the picture was animal not properly sex and egg that was not calcified which I have witness with other animal species and which look VERY similar to this picture.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I'm mystified and have no certain answers....but I do have two guesses.

IF it's some tapeworm cyst...maybe it was contained just like that within the rodent. The rodent passes through the digestive system and goes the way of all food, but the cyst within it does not get digested and passes along with the rest of the waste the next time the snake eliminates. I would think it unlikely that your snake is actually infected with tapeworms and that cyst was just passing through, so to speak.

The other guess is that it's an egg in its early stages of development and that your boy, is indeed, a girl. I have heard of a case where a small breeder had a male/female pair she was SURE of....they mated as expected....but it turned out to be the "male" of the pair that laid the eggs. Turns out both snakes were mis-sexed.

PLEASE keep us updated with what the vet says! I'm very curious about it!

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Yeah, my husband is mystified by the thing too, because the species of tapeworm that that forms cysts like this have only been found in dogs, horses and cows and he can't find any scientific literature about them being found in snakes. Tape worms, yes, but not this species.

I am so bummed that the vet is booked today, but by tomorrow morning I should know for sure. I probed him again this morning, and "he" definitely probes male. I never popped him though. I really don't like that method because of the potential crushing of a hemipene factor. And he's so big now I certainly wouldn't try it myself. I've had a spider BP and a Jungle carpet sold to me know as females that turned out to be male because the breeder popped incorrectly. I could deal with it if "he" is really a "she" and probes deceptively and has male courtship and mating tendencies...that'd be strange but I could deal with that. Wouldn't hurt to have another female pastel in the collection.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Problem is I have seen female probing as male also which was the result of injury that occurred during probing (obviously not done properly in that case)

Any chance you can get this animal pop by someone experienced?

My first guess seeing the picture was animal not properly sex and egg that was not calcified which I have witness with other animal species and which look VERY similar to this picture.

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I am working on getting in touch with an experienced person.....I am not comfortable popping on an adult BP.

Update?

Did you see a vet ? What did they say ?

I'm leaning towards it being an undeveloped egg, but what if it's more serious ?

Gale

OK, here we go:

The vet first probed the ball, and said male. Then popped. Looked like a hemipene on the right, couldn't get one on the left, and got what looks like a sperm plug. The vet got photos of what looks like the hemipene (reason I say "what looks like" is because it seems a bit smaller than normal, but does not look like a female scent gland either) and will e-mail them to me, but for now, here's what looks like a sperm plug (it is in a wee bit of isotonic solution):

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...21211_plug.jpg

The vet also drew fluid from the sac thing and is sending it off to the lab. We are also doing a fecal sample. Finally, x-rays. I had to leave the ball with them overnight because I was unable to pick him back up before closing and couldn't stay until the x-rays were complete. So I'll report on that stuff tomorrow.

I also took the sac thing to the lab at the school I work for and put a small section of the lining under the microscope. Here's photos under two magnifications:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...1_lining4x.jpg
http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...211_lining.jpg

Those look like vessels to me, I don't know. One thing I am pretty sure of is that it isn't the wall of a hydatid cyst of the life cycle of a particular species of tape worm. You'd see the asexual structures adhered to the "wall" and there aren't any of those. The vessel things make me think unfert. egg, but lab results will confirm that.

I'll get "hemipene" photos up as soon as I receive them for everyone's judgement.

All this is just CRAZY. If this IS a hemipene and plug, and the lab reports come back as "egg", I've got a hermaphrodite. That might explain the smaller hemipene, as most hermaphrodites in nature have reduced sexual structures. They are also usually sterile :tears: We'll see.

Thanks to everyone following this story and providing feedback!

I caught one of my females scenting her cage about a week ago when I put her mate in and got a photo. Here's female scent glands. What we saw at the vet's today did not look like this.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...bble/Scent.jpg

Hey, what happened? I swear I felt like I was reading a VERY interesting suspension book and all of a sudden get cut off. Lol! Can't wait to read more... :)

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Originally Posted by PrettyInInk87

Hey, what happened? I swear I felt like I was reading a VERY interesting suspension book and all of a sudden get cut off. Lol! Can't wait to read more... :)

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I think I was typing the results from today. See the two posts above you!

Yes I read those but still a little confused I guess... So "he" is a he after all? Your still waiting on the lab results, right? Just wanted to keep reading to get to the good part at the end. Lol!

I agree i'm very interested to know the results lol

Wow....when this is all said and done it may need to be a stickie....this is so interesing!!!

Personally, I think it's a "he" and a "she". Key word is "think" and not "know". Lab results should confirm if it is an egg- hence female. I've got the photos of "hemipene" to be uploaded as soon as I get them, and I am pretty sure the verdict on that will be "hemipene" from the viewers. I've also got an experienced person willing to pop tomorrow just to double, double confirm hemipene- hence male. Both :O

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Wow....when this is all said and done it may need to be a stickie....this is so interesing!!!

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Hahaha...a stickie! I might get him/her published:rofl: I'd love to see my little maybe hermaphrodite immortalized on BP.Net!

The suspense is KILLING me! :taz:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...mallPixels.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...smallPixel.jpg

What say you?

Sorry, I know the photos are a little out of focus. They were taken with a phone cam.

That is a male....

And those are some interesting nails!

Looks like one to me. This is all very interesting.

One of the questions I had about the cysts while reading this thread was are they passed out of the body in mammals? From what I read it seemed the cysts are internal and surgically removed. But like the OP mentioned, that species isn't found in reptiles.

Maybe it was just some other benign liquid cyst that passed?

Wow, I can't wait to hear the the lab results either. This is crazy.

Wow, what an interesting turn!

sent from my EVO

Please keep us posted!!

I like this thread.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Looks like one to me. This is all very interesting.

One of the questions I had about the cysts while reading this thread was are they passed out of the body in mammals? From what I read it seemed the cysts are internal and surgically removed. But like the OP mentioned, that species isn't found in reptiles.

Maybe it was just some other benign liquid cyst that passed?

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You are correct. Which it was why it was so bizarre. It would have been so unlikely to have been a cyst. But could you imagine what I was thinking when I found this thing in the tub of a male ball python!? Egg didn't even enter my mind...went straight to parasite. Since the possibility of egg was not relevant to me at that time I could only try to wrap my head around cyst.

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

Please keep us posted!!

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Definitely will! For all you following this post, I won't be picking him/her up until about 11am PST. And the vet is 1 hr away. And I'll likely be stopping to have a confirmation popping on the way home. By the time I'm able to report more findings it will be at least 3pm PST.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

I like this thread.

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Me too:D I have gotten very little sleep since Thursday night. It's just crazy.

The cytology results of the fluid that was taken from the "object" will not be in until Tuesday or Wednesday from the lab...I forgot those take a few days :(

The x-rays did not show any more of these in the animal, in the ovary or oviduct regions.

Fecal was negative for worms.

As soon as I get word from the vet about the cytology I'll post the results. Sorry to keep you all hanging :P

It has ovaries and oviduct regions??

Maybe this snake is a hermaphrodite and can explain the ball python that laid eggs without copulation. I was very skeptical thinking it was simply a female until I saw the picture of the hemipene. No other follicles also makes me curious. Very interesting.

What Monica said????

I was too thinking it was a female....but that certainly was a hemipene!

Cannot wait to find out!!!!

Im going out on a limb and am going to say that its still a female in my opinion.

Ive got some female Bloods who have hemipenal like off-shoots that would make you think male that look just like the popping pictures here in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

It has ovaries and oviduct regions??

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No, we were looking in the region of the animal where those things would be for anything abnormal (ex. we weren't concerned about the lungs, esophagus, etc. in the x-ray). The snake appears to be healthy. Didn't see anything that might indicate that there may be more things he has to pass. I wan't this done because a few people on here indicated that if these are ufert. eggs, then they would be harder to pass than regular eggs and becoming egg-bound may be a problem.

We didn't see ovaries and oviducts, we were just concerned about that region of the film. Also, didn't see any abnormal growths, such as tumors in the snake.

Still waiting on the lab results. I've also contacted the Barker's at VPI to see what their take on it is.

I'm dying to get the lab results back. I go back to teaching today, so hopefully that will help keep my mind off of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jsschrei

The cytology results of the fluid that was taken from the "object" will not be in until Tuesday or Wednesday from the lab...I forgot those take a few days :(

The x-rays did not show any more of these in the animal, in the ovary or oviduct regions.

Fecal was negative for worms.

As soon as I get word from the vet about the cytology I'll post the results. Sorry to keep you all hanging :P

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Just to clarify for everyone- we did not see any ovaries or oviducts. I was referring to looking in that part of the snake (were they would be) on the x-ray for any abnormalities. Sorry if I confused anyone, I was in a hurry when I wrote this and I can see where I may have been misleading.

Sorry, it has to be said...
This reminds me of the "Nature finds a way" scene from the original Jurassic Park.