What is every base morph and which lay on the same allele?

Heres my list, I tired to group them by alleles, I guess i also need to know which are dominate traits also or weird in some way. I thought the green pastel laid on the same alleles as some but i don't remember. I made this list a long time ago, I don't even remember what some of them are lol. I gotta do some more research, but if you guys see anything missing, alleles, dominate, ect. lemme know. I want a perfect list as to the best of our knowledge

like anyone got a final call on what hypos are compatible? blue or green compatible with normal hypo?

Cinnamon Pastel
Black Pastel

Butter
Mojave
Russo Het Leucistic
Phantom
Mystic
Lesser
Mocha
Special
Daddy Gene

Fire
Sulfur

Yellow Belly
Goblin
Orange Belly
Spector
Whirlwind

Lavender Albino
Caramel Albino
Pastel
Albino
Lori
Axanthic
Piebald
Clown
Desert Ghost
Genetic Stripe
Tri-Stripe
Hypo
Green Ghost
Blue Ghost
Burgundy
Ultramelanistic
Toffee
Patternless
Black Lace
Black Head
Black Opal
Orange Crush
Peach
Congo
Black Axanthic
Enchi
Granite
Sable
Vanilla
Hidden Gene Woma
Chocolate
Paint
Spotnose
Het Red Axanthic
Red Stripe
Disco
Epic
Orange Dream
Black Belly
Calico
Garcia
Het Puma
Het Highway
Sentinel
Lace
Green Pastel
Huffman
Calico
Whitesmoke
Pinstripe
Shatter
Marble
Ghi
Woma
Cajun
Candy
Crider
Goldfinger
Lace
Lemonback
Leopard
Napalm
Puzzle
Reaper
Sugar
Fader
Desert


Most likely dominate genes?
Spider
Champagne
Coral Glow
Banana

How do you determine which genes go on which alleles? This is very interesting btw.

the top 4 groups

well I figured that, but how do you determine that say the fire and sulfer are on the same allele or the black pastel & cinny are?

fire x sulfer make a black eyed lucy, breed it to a normal, you only make fires or sulfers, no black eyed lucy or normals. unlike say if you had a bumblebee and breed it to a normal, then you could make bumblebees, pastel, spider, and normal.

same for black pastel and cinny, they make an 8 ball, 8 ball to a normal only make black pastels and cinnys.

the allele stuff when combo'd is homozygous, its not exactly the same gene, but still on the same allele.

The way I describe it is that alleles are different versions of the same gene.

The first allele groups we knew of where a single mutation and the wild type version of the same gene. Like the albino mutation and the normal for albino version of that gene.

But with the blue eyed leucistic complex we have more than one mutant versions of that gene. Any animal only has two copies of a given gene (one from mom and one from dad) so since all those mutations are on that same gene you can't combine 3 or more copies of that group of mutations including the normal version of that gene. So for example a lesser couldn't have one lesser copy, one normal copy, and one hidden/dilute/daddy copy because that would be three. They only have the lesser and normal versions and no room for any more members of that complex.

I have one of these lists ... It's on my other computer, but I can post it when I get home. I got really dorky and tried to assign a code to them ... :rolleyes:

I made some different assumptions in my list, though. For example, I assumed that "lesser" and "butter" are essentially the same thing. Ditto "mystic" and "phantom." I don't really know much about mochas so I assumed they're different. I also counted the different lines of axanthic as separate, since they appear to be on different loci.

BTW, just a quick clarification: "Allele" is the word for the different versions of a given gene. "Locus" is the word for the place on the chromosome where those different alleles sit (loci is the plural form). :gj:

well this is for a genetic calc im trying to make, actually got it working yesterday as far as calculations go Now i just need to make it user friendly add rules for allele/locus stuff and dominate genes. so i'm keeping lesser and butter separate, since people will type one or the other (I know their the same thing) I do agree with the axanthic lines tho. Ill have to change that, thx.

Isn't het puma in yb group?
and Lemonback in Fire group?


Cool list btw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Isn't het puma in yb group?
and Lemonback in Fire group?


Cool list btw

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I have no idea ill have to look into that lol thx

Same with het highway as far I understand they both combine with yb to make the Highway and Puma ball.

ok het puma is in fact a part of the superstripe complex

the lemonbacks i keep seeing how they look like fires and super is a BlkEL but I cannot find where it says they are compatible... any got insight to this or link to info?

I believe it was Pro Exotics that proved it out to make a Black eyed lucy :)

Ooh, okay gotcha ... Wow, that must be an undertaking!

A few comments then:

One, it's sounding increasingly as though the banana / coral glow are the same morph and are in some way "sex linked" -- if not literally, at least statistically. (In other words, even if it isn't literally a gene on a sex chromosome, it does seem to show up in females a majority of the time.) I don't know the exact incidence, though, which you'd need for programming, and besides that it sounds like a programming nightmare to add sex to the mix :O

Two, isn't lemonback the name of PE's line of fires? Or am I thinking of something else?

Three, I don't think (??) it's been proven for sure yet but I think toffee and candy are thought to be the same thing ... It's also been proposed that ultramel and crider may be the same thing. (There's also the calico/sugar debate ...)

Finally, I honestly don't know the answer to this, but are sable and chocolate on the same locus? I know they definitely don't appear to be the same gene ...

Pinstripe and "regular" woma are suspected of being dominant ... There may be some others too that I'm not remembering.

Oh, and what's a Huffman? :P :confused:

Wow I took way too long to write that post ... Kept getting distracted :P Beat me to the lemonback thing ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Ooh, okay gotcha ... Wow, that must be an undertaking!

A few comments then:

One, it's sounding increasingly as though the banana / coral glow are the same morph and are in some way "sex linked" -- if not literally, at least statistically. (In other words, even if it isn't literally a gene on a sex chromosome, it does seem to show up in females a majority of the time.) I don't know the exact incidence, though, which you'd need for programming, and besides that it sounds like a programming nightmare to add sex to the mix :O

Two, isn't lemonback the name of PE's line of fires? Or am I thinking of something else?

Three, I don't think (??) it's been proven for sure yet but I think toffee and candy are thought to be the same thing ... It's also been proposed that ultramel and crider may be the same thing. (There's also the calico/sugar debate ...)

Finally, I honestly don't know the answer to this, but are sable and chocolate on the same locus? I know they definitely don't appear to be the same gene ...

Pinstripe and "regular" woma are suspected of being dominant ... There may be some others too that I'm not remembering.

Oh, and what's a Huffman? :P :confused:

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never herd of the sex linked thing, wouldn't really be a programing nightmare, your chances are now cut in half by 50% lol

i just emailed pro exotics for info

yea there alot of suspected compatible things, but until proven, im keeping separate, I should make a separate "watch list" for those kind of things

I also trying to figure out, how to word things, like pinstripe has a proven homozygous form, but most of the other dominate traits don't.

then spider apparently doesn't have a homozygous form, so how do you calculate that? spider x spider = 75%/25% or 50%/50% or 33%/66%? hmmm, mayb if you come up with a homozygous spider I should just have a separate link to info on the super spider debate lol

Alrite updated, some morphs i still donno what they are lol, i made this list too long ago.

*8 Ball Complex*
Cinnamon Pastel
Black Pastel

*BEL Complex*
Butter
Mojave
Russo Het Leucistic
Phantom
Mystic
Lesser
Mocha
Special
Daddy Gene

*BlkEL Complex*
Fire
Sulfur
?Lemonback? - Awaiting email back

*Superstripe Complex*
Yellow Belly
Goblin
Orange Belly
Spector
Whirlwind
Het Puma

*Watch List - Unproven complex*
Toffee
Candy

Ultramelanistic
Crider

Calico
Sugar

Het Red Axanthic
Green Pastel

*Dominate Genes*
Pinstripe - Proven
Spider - I donno what to do with this one yet

*Unproven Domiate Genes*
Champagne
Coral Glow
Banana
Woma
Desert

*Other Base Morphs*
Lavender Albino
Caramel Albino
Pastel
Albino
Lori
Axanthic (VPI)
Axanthic (TSK)
Axanthic (Jolliff)
Piebald
Clown
Desert Ghost
Genetic Stripe
Tri-Stripe
Hypo
Green Ghost
Blue Ghost
Burgundy
Patternless
Black Lace
Black Head
Black Opal
Orange Crush
Peach
Congo
Black Axanthic
Enchi
Granite
Sable
Vanilla
Hidden Gene Woma
Chocolate
Paint
Spotnose
Red Stripe
Disco
Epic
Orange Dream
Black Belly
Calico
Garcia
Het Highway
Sentinel
Lace
Huffman
Whitesmoke
Shatter
Marble
Ghi
Cajun
Goldfinger
Lace
Leopard
Napalm
Puzzle
Reaper
Fader

i really wish i could edit the original post, sorry for the multiple lists guys. alright so i looked up everything I could and i have a few questions,

Citrus Pastel - compatible with normal pastel?
Huffman - Did it ever get renamed?
Leopard - story on this confuses me, what goes on with this morph?
also anyone know for sure that green and blue hypo are separate morphs from normal hypo? info on these is very conflicting.

updated list, obviously let me know if anything seems wrong

*8 Ball Complex*
Cinnamon Pastel
Black Pastel

*BEL Complex*
Butter
Mojave
Russo Het Leucistic
Phantom
Mystic
Lesser
Mocha
Special
Daddy Gene

*BlkEL Complex*
Fire
Sulfur
?Lemonback? - Awaiting email back

*Superstripe Complex*
Yellow Belly
Goblin
Orange Belly
Spector
Whirlwind
Het Puma
Het Highway

*Watch List - Unproven complex*
Toffee
Candy

Ultramelanistic
Crider

Calico
Sugar

Het Red Axanthic
Green Pastel

Chocolate
Sable

Coral Glow
Whitesmoke
Banana

*Dominate Genes*
Congo - Proven
Pinstripe - Proven
Spider - I donno what to do with this one yet

*Unproven Domiate Genes*
Champagne
Woma
Desert
Black Head
Epic
Orange Dream
Black Belly
Shatter
Marble
Philistine
Napalm
Reaper
Fader

*Other Base Morphs*
Lavender Albino
Caramel Albino
Pastel
Albino
Lori
Axanthic (VPI)
Axanthic (TSK)
Axanthic (Jolliff)
Piebald
Clown
Desert Ghost
Genetic Stripe
Tri-Stripe
Hypo
Green Ghost
Blue Ghost
Burgundy
Patternless
Black Lace
Black Opal
Orange Crush
Peach
Black Axanthic
Enchi
Granite
Vanilla
Hidden Gene Woma
Paint
Spotnose
Red Stripe
Disco
Calico
Garcia
Sentinel
Lace
Ghi
Cajun
Goldfinger
Lace
Puzzle

Citrus Pastel - compatible with normal pastel?
Huffman - Did it ever get renamed?
Leopard - story on this confuses me

I'm still rather new to this, but I was curious, in the "Other Base Morphs" list is this just a list of morphs with unknown categorization or is that a separate category? I saw you had pastel and spotnose on there, which are both co-dominant? Perhaps I'm missing the boat entirely.

I tend to disagree with having the Mystic and the Phantom listed in the BEL complex. Is there a supper Platty(Daddy)? Platty Daddy is not the same as Lessor.
To my knowledge they do not make a BEL when bred together to create a Homo form.

Spector/Whirlwind are the same morph.
Goblin/Yellow Belly and I think Orange Belly are the same morph


Het Red/ Green Pastel/ Lace Back Back are the same morph

Pinstripe/Spider/Woma are Dominant morphs. Have never seen proof of a Homo of either one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I tend to disagree with having the Mystic and the Phantom listed in the BEL complex. Is there a supper Platty(Daddy)? Platty Daddy is not the same as Lessor.
To my knowledge they do not make a BEL when bred together to create a Homo form.

Spector/Whirlwind are the same morph.
Goblin/Yellow Belly and I think Orange Belly are the same morph


Het Red/ Green Pastel/ Lace Back Back are the same morph

Pinstripe/Spider/Woma are Dominant morphs. Have never seen proof of a Homo of either one.

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Phantom and mystic are apart of the BEL complex... breed a mystic to a mojo, you get a mystic potion, breed that to a normal, you get mojo or mystics, no normals or other potions, any 2 morphs in that group work that way. I just call it the BEL complex because thats what it seems to be called, not all homozygous forms in that group are BEL's, but alot of them are. platty is a lesser or butter + daddy gene.

goblin and yellow belly im pretty sure are the same morph, but orange belly is the key to graphite.

hmm looking up stuff i never saw anything about lace being apart of that complex, nor could i find any green pastel/het red,red axanthics, to prove they are part of the same complex, but ill look into it. thx

bhb has a proven homozygous pin, also spider im trying to figure out exactly how to calculate it, spider x spider = what % spider/ what % normal. i mean depending on all the theories it could be 75%/25%, 50%/50%, or 33%/66%... so yea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NewParadigms

I'm still rather new to this, but I was curious, in the "Other Base Morphs" list is this just a list of morphs with unknown categorization or is that a separate category? I saw you had pastel and spotnose on there, which are both co-dominant? Perhaps I'm missing the boat entirely.

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other base morphs are morphs that are not part of a complex or dominate genes. Recessive and Co-dom genes are calculated exactly the same way. This list is just being put into a database, I got make rules for the complex and side notes for alot of the dominate stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

then spider apparently doesn't have a homozygous form, so how do you calculate that? spider x spider = 75%/25% or 50%/50% or 33%/66%? hmmm, mayb if you come up with a homozygous spider I should just have a separate link to info on the super spider debate lol

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Actually I think that's not a bad idea, ha ha. It hasn't been definitively proven that the gene is homozygous lethal; it could well be, but it could also just be that nobody has come forward with a homozygous spider yet, since I don't think a huge number of spider x spider breedings have been done ...


As far as the leopard, I know there are a few good threads about it on here, but it's still confusing as heck ... Seems to be linked to the pied gene and show up only in het pieds, I think :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Actually I think that's not a bad idea, ha ha. It hasn't been definitively proven that the gene is homozygous lethal; it could well be, but it could also just be that nobody has come forward with a homozygous spider yet, since I don't think a huge number of spider x spider breedings have been done ...


As far as the leopard, I know there are a few good threads about it on here, but it's still confusing as heck ... Seems to be linked to the pied gene and show up only in het pieds, I think :confused:

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i realize i spelled dominant, dominate lol guess i was tired yesterday.

i don't believe there is a reason to believe its lethal, i think it just not being a simple dominant gene is more likely. I think i will have it calculate it as a normal dominant gene and have some side notes for it. the unproven dominant gene will also need side notes as a homozygous form of them isn't proven yet either.

yea im totally confused on the leopard, i was hoping someone could spell it out for me lol

This is the most I've ever seen it spelled out on the leopards (3rd post down):

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=leopard

... Unfortunately, that isn't very clear at all :(

As far as the "super spider" debate goes, I think the reasoning is that, since there does not appear to be a visually distinct "super" form, it's either got to be simple dominant and nobody's produced or come out with a homozygous spider yet, or else there's something about the homozygous spider that's incompatible with life. Otherwise we would've seen something by now ...

I think though that it can be tough to prove homozygous lethal conditions (unless the baby dies after birth, like the white foals in Lethal White Overo Syndrome in horses, or late enough term to have an abortus with an obvious phenotype). I know that in chinchillas, there are two mutations that are said to be homozygous lethal (black velvet and mosaic) based on the fact that no homozygous BV or mosaic has ever been produced. However, despite the fact that they have been around and bred for a few decades now, in fairly large numbers, nobody's definitively "proven" the homozygous lethal condition. It is suspected that the babies die in utero and are resorbed, or else maybe aborted and consumed by the mama before they can ever be discovered. However, I know of at least two breeders who routinely breed mosaic x mosaic and have never reported obvious problems (though no homozygotes either).

So, I guess it's kind of a default suggestion when we can't find proof of a homozygote, visual or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

This is the most I've ever seen it spelled out on the leopards (3rd post down):

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=leopard

... Unfortunately, that isn't very clear at all :(

As far as the "super spider" debate goes, I think the reasoning is that, since there does not appear to be a visually distinct "super" form, it's either got to be simple dominant and nobody's produced or come out with a homozygous spider yet, or else there's something about the homozygous spider that's incompatible with life. Otherwise we would've seen something by now ...

I think though that it can be tough to prove homozygous lethal conditions (unless the baby dies after birth, like the white foals in Lethal White Overo Syndrome in horses, or late enough term to have an abortus with an obvious phenotype). I know that in chinchillas, there are two mutations that are said to be homozygous lethal (black velvet and mosaic) based on the fact that no homozygous BV or mosaic has ever been produced. However, despite the fact that they have been around and bred for a few decades now, in fairly large numbers, nobody's definitively "proven" the homozygous lethal condition. It is suspected that the babies die in utero and are resorbed, or else maybe aborted and consumed by the mama before they can ever be discovered. However, I know of at least two breeders who routinely breed mosaic x mosaic and have never reported obvious problems (though no homozygotes either).

So, I guess it's kind of a default suggestion when we can't find proof of a homozygote, visual or not.

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well that link does help, guess we just need to wait for more info.

the spider can still be a complicated gene, doesn't mean its lethal at all. and you could prove it by seeing what goes on inside the female from spider x spider breedings, do 25% of follicles on average not develop? might shed some light. but its not important enough to anyone to really find out.

just got an email back from pro exotics, the lemonback is not proven compatible with the fire or sulfur yet. so that will have to go on the watch list

The woma has a homozygous form, the pearl which hasn't lived.
Know where I can find pics of the homo pinstripe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mpenny

The woma has a homozygous form, the pearl which hasn't lived.
Know where I can find pics of the homo pinstripe?

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According to Kevin the pearl is produced with the hidden gene woma ;)
Check out the NERD youtube interviews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Tg4412cS0

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mpenny

The woma has a homozygous form, the pearl which hasn't lived.
Know where I can find pics of the homo pinstripe?

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yea the hidden gene woma's homozygous form is the pearl, plain womas have not had a proven homozygous form yet as far as I know. You might as well consider them separate genes.

the homozygous pin just look like a normal pinstripe, just when you breed it every baby is a pin.

Ok I have researched as much as I can, so this is my final list until someone comes forward with more info

*8 Ball Complex*
Cinnamon
Black Pastel

*BEL Complex*
Butter
Mojave
Russo Het Leucistic
Phantom
Mystic
Lesser
Mocha
Special
Daddy Gene

*BlkEL Complex*
Fire
Sulfur

*Superstripe Complex*
Yellow Belly
Goblin
Orange Belly
Spector
Whirlwind
Het Puma
Het Highway

*Pied Complex*
Leopard
Piebald

*Watch List - Unproven complex*
Toffee
Candy

Ultramelanistic
Crider

Calico
Sugar

Het Red Axanthic
Green Pastel

Chocolate
Sable

Coral Glow
Whitesmoke
Banana

Lemonback (BlkEL Complex)

*Dominate Genes*
Congo
Pinstripe
Spider - No Proven Homozygous

*Unproven Domiate Genes*
Champagne
Woma
Desert
Black Head
Epic
Orange Dream
Black Belly
Shatter
Marble
Philistine
Napalm
Reaper
Fader
Black Lace
Granite
Citrus Pastel

*Co-Dom*
Pastel
Lori
Black Opal
Enchi
Vanilla
Hidden Gene Woma
Paint
Spotnose
Red Stripe
Disco
Garcia
Sentinel
Lace
Ghi
Cajun
Huffman

*Recessive*
Albino
Lavender Albino
Caramel Albino
Axanthic (VPI)
Axanthic (TSK)
Axanthic (Jolliff)
Clown
Genetic Stripe
Tri-Stripe
Hypo
Green Ghost
Blue Ghost
Burgundy
Patternless
Orange Crush
Peach
Black Axanthic
Goldfinger
Puzzle
Desert Ghost

Yes there are homozygous spiders... jsut ask brian barcyk! or listen to reptile radio...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrothersRoyal

Yes there are homozygous spiders... jsut ask brian barcyk! or listen to reptile radio...

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your thinking of pinstripe

Ok from my research I think I have a few that may not be on your list. I have been doing lots of research and have spreadsheets upon spreadsheets so hopefully nothing is mixed up.
I don't know anything about the complexes that will have to be my next research because I'm not sure what you are talking about with those, but I can tell you the morph and what gene I think it is from my research.
Recessive morphs
Autumn Gloss
Butterscotch Ghost
?Tiger(Genetic Banded)
Hyper Striper (haven't been able to find much on this at all)
Orange Ghost
Rio
Yellow Ghost

Dominant
Avalanche
Dot
Ember
Josie
Orange Glow
Super Reduced Pattern
?Tiger possible here instead of recessive

Codom
Blonde Pastel
Crystal
Lemon Pastel
Lilly
Madarin pastel
Mahogany
Powerball
Speckled
Sunset

Are these genes recessive, dom, or codom?
Special
Daddy
Orange Belly
Whirlwind
Het Highway
Whitesmoke

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RemysBalls

Are these genes recessive, dom, or codom?
Special
Daddy
Orange Belly
Whirlwind
Het Highway
Whitesmoke

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AFAIK (read: disclaimer that this is all based on research as well, not years of hands-on experience :rolleyes: )

Special = Allele on the BEL locus; produces crystals when bred to mojaves and has a really wicked super (homozygous) form. Co-dom, but subtle.

Daddy = "Hidden gene" allele on the BEL locus; produces platty daddies, butter daddies, etc., when combined w/other alleles on that locus. Apparently has no visually distinguishable homozygous form (??:confused:??), and does not appear visually distinguishable from a wild-type ...

Orange belly = Gene on the yellowbelly locus. (Variant of yellowbelly ..?) I think it's somehow tied into Ben Siegel's graphite ivory stuff, and I know it's his line of YBs ... He'd be the one to ask on that 'cos I'm not all too sure. Co-dom.

Whirlwind = Another name for specter; on the YB locus. Makes a superstripe when bred to a YB. Co-dom.

Het highway = A new allele on the YB locus. Makes a highway when bred to ... Um ... Something. I'm pretty fuzzy on some of the new superstripe/puma/highway stuff on that locus, as awesome as it is, so maybe someone more in the know can fill in here :confused:

Whitesmoke = Another name for coral glow / banana. Suspected dominant with some sort of sex predilection.

Autumn Gloss - new one to me, interesting thing
Butterscotch Ghost - same thing as a hypo
?Tiger(Genetic Banded) - there are so many genetic reduce/banded lines out there, half of which i don't even think are proven genetic, I just decided not to put any of them on the list, you can still type them in tho.
Hyper Striper - still unproven to my knowledge
Orange Ghost - same as hypo
Rio - this is another new one to me
Yellow Ghost - same as a hypo

Dominant
Avalanche
Dot - i've seen normals that look like this, id like to see more that its proven dominant (a simple clutch picture would do it)
Ember - was waiting to see if it was another het BlkEL snake, but i guess i can add it to the list.
Josie - just saw these guys a couple days ago, i like em
Orange Glow - surprised i forgot these guys, their hot
Super Reduced Pattern
?Tiger possible here instead of recessive

Codom
Blonde Pastel - same as pastel
Crystal - thats a combo
Lemon Pastel - same as pastel
Lilly - only thing I can find on them is their listed co-dom on some sites, i can't find a info or even a picture of one tho
Madarin pastel - im assuming same as pastel
Mahogany - forgot about these guys also, supers the Suma right? or am i getting something else mixed up?
Powerball -super spot nose
Speckled - looks like a line of granite to me? I can only find one picture of a pastel speckled and it barely did anything to the pastel and if its co-dom wheres the homozygous?
Sunset - never proved out

thx for the list tho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Orange belly = Gene on the yellowbelly locus. (Variant of yellowbelly ..?) I think it's somehow tied into Ben Siegel's graphite ivory stuff, and I know it's his line of YBs ... He'd be the one to ask on that 'cos I'm not all too sure. Co-dom.

Het highway = A new allele on the YB locus. Makes a highway when bred to ... Um ... Something. I'm pretty fuzzy on some of the new superstripe/puma/highway stuff on that locus, as awesome as it is, so maybe someone more in the know can fill in here :confused:

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you are correct about the orange belly, tho i should apply the same disclaimer lol

bred het highway to yellow belly to make highway

How are buterscotch, orabge, and yellow ghost same as hypo, but blue and green ghost are there own thing? I am slightly confused

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RemysBalls

How are buterscotch, orabge, and yellow ghost same as hypo, but blue and green ghost are there own thing? I am slightly confused

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because i can breed a orange hypo to a orange hypo and get orange, butterscotch and yellow hypos all in the same clutch. all of them are just the standard hypo

while blue hypo is not compatible, its a different gene, green seems to still be in debate, there seems to be different lines of green hypo... i donno it confusing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I tend to disagree with having the Mystic and the Phantom listed in the BEL complex. Is there a supper Platty(Daddy)? Platty Daddy is not the same as Lessor.
To my knowledge they do not make a BEL when bred together to create a Homo form.

Spector/Whirlwind are the same morph.
Goblin/Yellow Belly and I think Orange Belly are the same morph


Het Red/ Green Pastel/ Lace Back Back are the same morph

Pinstripe/Spider/Woma are Dominant morphs. Have never seen proof of a Homo of either one.

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you literally cannot disagree with this. they are on the loci therefore they are part of that complex, simple as that. yes they dont react in quite the same way as the others or as expected, but they are still part of the complex. unless you can show me a mojave mystic lesser ;)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

yea the hidden gene woma's homozygous form is the pearl, plain womas have not had a proven homozygous form yet as far as I know. You might as well consider them separate genes.

the homozygous pin just look like a normal pinstripe, just when you breed it every baby is a pin.

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im fairly sure i had seen an episode of snakebytes where brian said they had a proven homozygous woma, or maybe im imagining it

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Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

im fairly sure i had seen an episode of snakebytes where brian said they had a proven homozygous woma, or maybe im imagining it

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I've watched every episode and don't remember him claiming to prove anything homozygous, i don't think hes even mentioned proving his pinstripes on the show. lemme know what episode tho if im wrong.

ive seen em all too, so i couldnt even begin to tell you which one i "think" it might be lol. maybe email him?

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Originally Posted by BAMReptiles

you literally cannot disagree with this. they are on the loci therefore they are part of that complex, simple as that. yes they dont react in quite the same way as the others or as expected, but they are still part of the complex. unless you can show me a mojave mystic lesser ;)

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I literally can disagree with this. They do not produce BEL's when bred to the same morph. Now we are all entitled to our own beliefs. Based on what I understand of genetics, this is what I believe until I can be shown otherwise. Allot of the genetics "Known" or understood about ball pythons is fairly inaccurate.
What we refer to as Dominant and Codominant genes is not entirely true.

yellow belly and specter are same allele

yellow belly and het highway are same allele

so specter and het highway are same allele too, right?

het highway and specter are complete dominant .

I doubt what happen for het highway x specter ?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I literally can disagree with this. They do not produce BEL's when bred to the same morph. Now we are all entitled to our own beliefs. Based on what I understand of genetics, this is what I believe until I can be shown otherwise. Allot of the genetics "Known" or understood about ball pythons is fairly inaccurate.
What we refer to as Dominant and Codominant genes is not entirely true.

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You -- and anyone else -- literally CAN disagree with literally anything! I disagree with a lot of things, including some things that are well-established as "fact!"

... However, in this case Tessada I would disagree with your disagreement :)

When we say "BEL complex" we're not talking about all alleles that make a leucistic snake in homozygous form. We're talking about alleles that lie on a given locus. Because so many alleles on that locus DO make a leucistic in homozygous form, and they all have blue eyes, the locus has been colloquially dubbed the "BEL locus" and those alleles that lie on that locus members of the "BEL complex." However, this is somewhat of a misnomer as clearly a number of alleles on this locus do NOT produce a leucistic in homozygous form -- not just the "daddy" gene.

(The "super special," for example, has pattern as well.)

The "daddy" gene has been pretty much "proven" by Ralph to be on this locus, at least as well as it's going to be proven, and at least based on everything I have read. If you take a platty daddy and breed him to a normal, you will get lessers and snakes that look like normals, but you never ever ever ever get more platty daddies. (That is, unless the "normal" happened to be a het "daddy.") If the daddy gene was on a separate gene locus from the lesser gene, you should be able to get platty daddies by breeding a platty daddy to a normal, like with bumblebees, pewters, etc..

Ralph and others then found that it was possible to get more platties only by breeding a lesser, or butter, etc., to a normal-appearing lesser sibling out of a platinum parent.

This all doesn't mean for certain that the "daddy" gene is an allele on the (so-called) BEL locus. I think it would also be possible for it to be very tightly linked to that locus with a wild-type allele sitting on it, such that it was essentially impossible to get another BEL complex allele, plus the daddy gene, on the same chromosome.

However, we're never going to prove these things definitively (at least, not until gene sequencing becomes as cheap as my friend thinks it's going to in the next 10 years ...! :O), and calling it part of the BEL allele complex is as good a working hypothesis as any, adequately explaining the breeding results, so I'm going to continue to fly with it.

You're welcome to continue to disagree though -- as I said, I disagree with a lot of things ..! :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by _QIN_

yellow belly and specter are same allele

yellow belly and het highway are same allele

so specter and het highway are same allele too, right?

het highway and specter are complete dominant .

I doubt what happen for het highway x specter ?

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yes spector and het highway are on the same allele, tho I don't know of anyone who has bred these yet, their both fairly new morphs. i don't understand ur 2nd question?

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

You -- and anyone else -- literally CAN disagree with literally anything! I disagree with a lot of things, including some things that are well-established as "fact!"

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I laughed at the well-established "facts" part, makes 2 of us.

rest of it very well written. i agree with all of it.

Tessadas, its not that im saying they all make BEL, because obviously they don't, its just a name given to a complex, not everything in the superstripe complex makes superstripes either. I've herd of the BEL and BlkEL complex called that before, so that why I used it, do you think theres a more fitting name for em?

I understand what you are saying. Its just that when the majority of people start looking at things or believing things to be one way and then you find out its otherwise, it makes changing it to the right way that much harder. Look at Hypo/Ghost, they are Hypos not Ghosts.
Calling a snake that does not produce an all white snake with blue eyes a BEL is confusing to other people. It isn't a BEL but yet people are referring to them as BEL's because a few breeders say they are so. If we had the facts to prove so then fine but just saying it is so doesn't make it so.

Partial sequencing is around $500 now with a 20k price tag for a full genome sequencing. That 20k is a drop from 40k last year. Within the next couple of years full sequencing is expected to be about 1k. This is also pricing for humans.

Would "platy complex" be a better name since that was the first known combo of alleles in this complex?