Cage aggression question please help

I rescued a king snake that was surrendered at work (an animal hospital, people always dump their animals with us) about 2 months ago. He is 2 years old and really undersized and thin. I have been feeding him 2 rat fuzzies every week and he is eating great and getting bigger. Lately though he has been very cage aggressive to the point where I have to hook him to get him out to move him to his feeding bin. This is a complete 180 from when I first got him he was so sweet. What is causing this and please tell me how to fix it, he is a beautiful Lavender albino banana and I would like to be able to hold him more, however he thinks he’s a cobra or something.

Any imput?

Well, it's hard to say. At least with my limited experience with my little guy, most kings seem to have crazy attitudes. Very nervous and highstrung, especially when they're younger. If he was neglected by his previous owners he could just have some personality issues, and if he wasn't fed properly he could just be thinking about food all the time, no matter how much you feed him.

What kind of substrate are you using? I've found that kings love to burrow, and if you're only using newspaper then maybe he doesn't feel secure enough. But if your husbandry is good and hasn't changed at all, then I'd say he could finally be showing his real personality now that he's gotten used to you. The only real way to fix it is just to handle him more, and definitely wear some good, thick gloves and long sleeved shirts. Maybe you'll find that once you get him away from his tank and he realizes there's no food around, he'll calm down.

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Originally Posted by ed4281

I rescued a king snake that was surrendered at work (an animal hospital, people always dump their animals with us) about 2 months ago. He is 2 years old and really undersized and thin. I have been feeding him 2 rat fuzzies every week and he is eating great and getting bigger. Lately though he has been very cage aggressive to the point where I have to hook him to get him out to move him to his feeding bin. This is a complete 180 from when I first got him he was so sweet. What is causing this and please tell me how to fix it, he is a beautiful Lavender albino banana and I would like to be able to hold him more, however he thinks he’s a cobra or something.

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Well I guess I have thought about cage aggression a lot and I just don't believe that its real. Let me put it this way. If every time you feed your snake you take it out of its cage and put it in a feeding tub then it would make sense to me that every time you go to take your snake out of its cage it will think its feeding time. On the other hand if you feed in the cage then every time a mouse comes in the cage it will think its feeding time and every time your hand comes in the cage it will not associate your hand with feeding. I would say stop feeding your snake in a feeding tub. Feed it in its cage. Then when you go to take your snake out it won't be hungry and hopefully not so aggressive. It just doesn't make any sense to me to put your hand in the cage on feeding day at all.

this is just my opinion,

i think he wasnt at his full potential when you got him and weak now that he is healthy and back up to what he should have been he isnt to weak to defend himself and or put up a fight now that he isnt in bad conditions

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Well I guess I have thought about cage aggression a lot and I just don't believe that its real. Let me put it this way. If every time you feed your snake you take it out of its cage and put it in a feeding tub then it would make sense to me that every time you go to take your snake out of its cage it will think its feeding time. On the other hand if you feed in the cage then every time a mouse comes in the cage it will think its feeding time and every time your hand comes in the cage it will not associate your hand with feeding. I would say stop feeding your snake in a feeding tub. Feed it in its cage. Then when you go to take your snake out it won't be hungry and hopefully not so aggressive. It just doesn't make any sense to me to put your hand in the cage on feeding day at all.

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The only problem with this is kingsnakes are opportunistic feeders. They are called kingsnakes because they will generally feed on just about anything they think they can eat...which can include fingers.lol. When the cage is opened, they don't know the difference between a hand and a mouse until it's too late. I used to keep around 100 adult kings and most would fly out of the cage with their mouths open until they realized they weren't being fed. The whole tub/cage feeding scenerio could go either way.

My guess on this particular situation is just an albino cal king being an albino cal king. In my experience they are by far the most predictably unpredictable kingsnake there is. All of the albino cals I've owned, even those raised from hatchlings, were always biters even well into adulthood. I just learned to expect it from them. I stopped keeping cal kings about 16 years ago.lol. I just got tired of the biting and pooping all over.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

The only problem with this is kingsnakes are opportunistic feeders. They are called kingsnakes because they will generally feed on just about anything they think they can eat...which can include fingers.lol. When the cage is opened, they don't know the difference between a hand and a mouse until it's too late. I used to keep around 100 adult kings and most would fly out of the cage with their mouths open until they realized they weren't being fed. The whole tub/cage feeding scenerio could go either way.

My guess on this particular situation is just an albino cal king being an albino cal king. In my experience they are by far the most predictably unpredictable kingsnake there is. All of the albino cals I've owned, even those raised from hatchlings, were always biters even well into adulthood. I just learned to expect it from them. I stopped keeping cal kings about 16 years ago.lol. I just got tired of the biting and pooping all over.

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The only problem with your reply to my post is that I agree with you and you replied as if I didn't. The OP calls this an issue of cage aggression. I definitely think this is an issue of a hungry snake. I am saying that feeding in the cage will fix the problem. The problem being that the snake is aggressive when you take it out of its cage to feed it in a separate tub. Don't do that and the problem goes away. Now you may still have an issue with the snake being aggressive when you just want to handle it, but thats a whole other problem. If we haven't determined that cage aggression is even real then really we are creating one problem to try and solve another problem that its not helping to solve. Feed your snake. Try to handle it when its least hungry. The older it gets and the more you handle it the more it should calm down. If it doesn't then guess what. You have a mean Cal King. They are animals, they each have their own personalities and there is no magic bullet to fixing them. All we can do is practice good husbandry and work with them.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The only problem with your reply to my post is that I agree with you and you replied as if I didn't. The OP calls this an issue of cage aggression. I definitely think this is an issue of a hungry snake. I am saying that feeding in the cage will fix the problem. The problem being that the snake is aggressive when you take it out of its cage to feed it in a separate tub. Don't do that and the problem goes away. Now you may still have an issue with the snake being aggressive when you just want to handle it, but thats a whole other problem. If we haven't determined that cage aggression is even real then really we are creating one problem to try and solve another problem that its not helping to solve. Feed your snake. Try to handle it when its least hungry. The older it gets and the more you handle it the more it should calm down. If it doesn't then guess what. You have a mean Cal King. They are animals, they each have their own personalities and there is no magic bullet to fixing them. All we can do is practice good husbandry and work with them.

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Sorry. I'm a bad skimmer and get in a hurry sometimes....especially with my screwed up schedule. ;) I guess my main concern with your first post was that you said the snake would not associate the keepers hand with food if fed in the cage. I just don't think they care what's in their cage. I don't think it has anything to do with aggression but more that kingsnakes will eat every day if you feed them. Anything in their cage that moves is fair game.

Thank you all for your advice, I will try to handle him more on his non feeding days. He is on aspen bedding and loves to borrow. I feed him outside of the cage for two reasons 1) because that was what I thought I was supposed to do based on my research 2) because I don't want him ingesting the aspen. I have him at a hotspot of 87-89 degrees and an ambient temp of 75.

I guess if he doesn’t get over this he will just be a display snake; he really is very nice looking

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Originally Posted by ed4281

Thank you all for your advice, I will try to handle him more on his non feeding days. He is on aspen bedding and loves to borrow. I feed him outside of the cage for two reasons 1) because that was what I thought I was supposed to do based on my research 2) because I don't want him ingesting the aspen. I have him at a hotspot of 87-89 degrees and an ambient temp of 75.

I guess if he doesn’t get over this he will just be a display snake; he really is very nice looking

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To answer your to points.

1.) I would suggest that you do some more research. This forum has a bunch of great threads on feeding in an out of the snakes enclosure.

2.) Ingesting aspen is not likely to cause any issues. In the wild (not saying all things in the wild are good) snakes will routinely ingest things that get stuck to their prey. If you are still concerned what you can do is place a paper towel in the cage and then feed over the paper towel.

At the end of the day its all up to you on how you keep your snake. I merely wanted to suggest that feeding in the cage is a real option that many many keepers practice with no ill effects.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Sorry. I'm a bad skimmer and get in a hurry sometimes....especially with my screwed up schedule. ;) I guess my main concern with your first post was that you said the snake would not associate the keepers hand with food if fed in the cage. I just don't think they care what's in their cage. I don't think it has anything to do with aggression but more that kingsnakes will eat every day if you feed them. Anything in their cage that moves is fair game.

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What we are having is a common misunderstanding. Let me re frame the argument. When we feed in a separate enclosure to avoid cage aggression we are saying that we want feeding to only happen in a tub that way when the snake is in the tub it will think "OK I am in the tub and now is the time to strike at stuff" We then hope that when the snake is not in the tub it thinks "Ok something is moving over there but I am not in the tub so it must not be food, I bet its just a hand I won't strike at it." The problem is thats not at all what goes on for the snake. The snake decision to strike has nothing to do with where it is. Its not associating the tub with feeding or your hand with food. Its seeing movement, its hungry or scared and its striking. Once we stop thinking that cage aggression is something we can fix by feeding in a tub then we can start addressing the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

What we are having is a common misunderstanding. Let me re frame the argument. When we feed in a separate enclosure to avoid cage aggression we are saying that we want feeding to only happen in a tub that way when the snake is in the tub it will think "OK I am in the tub and now is the time to strike at stuff" We then hope that when the snake is not in the tub it thinks "Ok something is moving over there but I am not in the tub so it must not be food, I bet its just a hand I won't strike at it." The problem is thats not at all what goes on for the snake. The snake decision to strike has nothing to do with where it is. Its not associating the tub with feeding or your hand with food. Its seeing movement, its hungry or scared and its striking. Once we stop thinking that cage aggression is something we can fix by feeding in a tub then we can start addressing the real problem.

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No misunderstanding. I was agreeing with you on most points. Although I do tend to disagree with the notion that striking has nothing to do with where the snakes are at. Snakes will associate their cage with feeding if they are fed there. Whether it's a mouse or a hand movement, they are more than likely going to go for it or at least be in the alert feeding state. I've seen this with every type of snake I've worked with.

Ed, I think it is really possible that your Cali King is pushing its limits and seeing just what it can get away with. Since you are now feeding it properly and it is gaining weight and strength, the most important thing in it's mind now is to avoid "grabby hand" and being handled. Kings and Milks are very well known for being bitey and flighty, though I have seen several that are very mild mannered and perfect gentlemen and ladies. These particular Kings/Milks have been handled every day save for feeding day and the day after. The handlings don't have to be for long periods, either.....15 minutes every day seems to help.

My suggestion would be to wear a t-shirt around all day long and then place this near the hide where your Cali King hangs out the most. Leave it in there for a couple of days and allow it to get used to your scent. Maybe this will help it to realize that your scent is associated with home and that you aren't as big a threat as it thinks.

On the matter of feeding outside of the enclosure...some do and some don't. I feed all of my snakes in a separate tub because I found that feeding some of them in the enclosure made them very cage defensive. This was especially true of my BCI boa, who had never tried to bite me even once until I made the mistake of feeding him a couple of times in his enclosure. However, with my Corns, they don't rightly care where I feed them, just as long as their getting fed and I haven't had any problems with feeding them in their enclosure when I've been rushed to get feeding done. It really is a personal preference. You could maybe try feeding it inside of the enclosure, to see if that helps with the aggression....and if it doesn't, maybe go back to feeding in a separate tub or whatever you prefer.

At any rate, I think if you keep up with your gentle handling and don't allow the snake to "cow" you (ie. don't back off and put it down if it bites you, this just teaches it that biting gets it free of you, etc.), then with time it may quiet some. Though the others are right...there are just some Kings and Milks that have that quarky personality that make them real buttheads to keep. ;) Best of luck!

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

No misunderstanding. I was agreeing with you on most points. Although I do tend to disagree with the notion that striking has nothing to do with where the snakes are at. Snakes will associate their cage with feeding if they are fed there. Whether it's a mouse or a hand movement, they are more than likely going to go for it or at least be in the alert feeding state. I've seen this with every type of snake I've worked with.

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I have yet to see any proof that snakes associate a location with feeding. I also don't have any reason to believe that they would. Do you have any evidence that supports that? Do you have a hypothesis as to why they would? Can you explain how you have seen this? What is the sample size, how many snakes have you worked with and of what breed?

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I have yet to see any proof that snakes associate a location with feeding. I also don't have any reason to believe that they would. Do you have any evidence that supports that? Do you have a hypothesis as to why they would? Can you explain how you have seen this? What is the sample size, how many snakes have you worked with and of what breed?

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How many snakes do/have you owned? I've seen it with many different species. I do not work in a lab, nor am I a scientist. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, but I have over 20 years of experience keeping and breeding more species of snake than you can probably imagine. Snakes are instinctual animals, but are more intelligent than most people give them credit for. Maybe it is not association, but more of a conditioning behavior. Either way, I guess we will agree to disagree. No harm done. I'm always happy to share information I've experienced first hand.

Merry Christmas

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

How many snakes do/have you owned? I've seen it with many different species. I do not work in a lab, nor am I a scientist. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, but I have over 20 years of experience keeping and breeding more species of snake than you can probably imagine. Snakes are instinctual animals, but are more intelligent than most people give them credit for. Maybe it is not association, but more of a conditioning behavior. Either way, I guess we will agree to disagree. No harm done. I'm always happy to share information I've experienced first hand.

Merry Christmas

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I would love to hear more about your first hand experiences. In order to show evidence for cage aggression you would have to have worked with a number of snake of the same species some of which you fed in their cage, some that you fed outside their cage and then have witnessed more aggression from the snakes fed in their cages. All I am saying is that you are right, snakes are more intelligent than most people give them credit for. I believe that many species are more than capable of telling a human hand from potential prey regardless of how they are fed.