Lemon pastel?

Okay so I bought this "pastel" knowing it was more than a regular pastel. i honestly think it may be a "lemon pastel" or something along those lines, but a regular pastel, it is not.

So what do you guys think?

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/125/sdc11936.th.jpg

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/3776/sdc11934.th.jpg

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2...c11929w.th.jpg

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3...c11927x.th.jpg

Lemon, blonde or not.. it is a very nice pastel that realy held it's color.. :)

What do you mean "more" than a regular pastel?

Every line of pastel, including the lemon line is a "regular" pastel.

Lemons are what I currently work with. The yellow in mine pop a bit more than the example you've shown - it's more intense in color. The peppering on the sides is common in lemons, but I'm not sure how common it is in other lines.

What line was your pastel sold to you as? Have you asked the breeder what line they work with?

A "lemon" pastel is a regular pastel
Lemon only means that it's lineage comes from NERD. Some of the traits that he said that are known in his lines were neck stripe, speckling, and one other I thought he mentioned but it's slipping my mind. Never the less a pastel is a pastel is a pastel.
Truly the only thing that should matter in pastel owners is how well does their pastel hold it's color. My girl I currently have has the same colors as those and comes from no specific line and the girl that I sold was as yellow as a banana and she didn't have a line either. Both were at 1000+ grams.

These threads bug me.

If you bought it as a normal pastel 99% of the time its going to be a normal pastel.

Breeders tend to know what they have in their collection and know what their selling off their collection.

From what iv seen a "lemon pastel" tends to be a bit more than a normal pastel?

Im sure if he sold it to u as a normal pastel that is probably what it is

eh its just a word that alot of people throw onto there Pastels to make em seam better than another.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

eh its just a word that alot of people throw onto there Pastels to make em seam better than another.

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To some, yes. But it is actually a line of pastels that originated from NERD that were selectively bred to have a high yellow coloration for a longer period of time instead of browning out like other pastels.

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Originally Posted by MitsuMike

To some, yes. But it is actually a line of pastels that originated from NERD that were selectively bred to have a high yellow coloration for a longer period of time instead of browning out like other pastels.

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Um, yes I am quite familiar to what a "Lemon" Pastel is. How many "Lemon" Pastels are being sold now days that are actualy "Lemon" Pastels? Who knows maybe they all realy are Lemon Pastels. They all pretty much look alike, it's realy all in the breeding.

Okay there seems to be a little confusion to where I am going in this post. So I will explain and rephrase myself.


The animal was purchased off a young lady who was attempting to breed this season, she said she bought the pastel in 2008 from repticon, and that it was a female and that she was getting it ready for this season.

She told me that she had a personal emergency and that she had to sell off all her ball pythons.

She was selling the Pastel as a 600+ gram Female Pastel for $200.

So i meet her up and began scrutinizing the animal.
she was selling it as a 600+ gram "Pastel Female", but it ended up being a 1013 gram Pastel MALE, PRODUCING sperm, so I gave her $50 on the spot, and took the now known male pastel from her.

I have seen multiple typical pastels and I am convinced that this is not a typical genetic line Pastel, either way I am happy spending $50 on the animal.

Right now he is in quarantine.

So I guess I should have re-stated my initial question to:

What type of Pastel is this animal, he doesn't seem like a common normal pastel? Is there even a way to identify different genetic lines?

Sorry for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by f4n70m

These threads bug me.

If you bought it as a normal pastel 99% of the time its going to be a normal pastel.

Breeders tend to know what they have in their collection and know what their selling off their collection.

From what iv seen a "lemon pastel" tends to be a bit more than a normal pastel?

I'm sure if he sold it to u as a normal pastel that is probably what it is

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I don't know where that came from, not everyone is on point. you really think that every single breeder on this planet knows what they are doing. Unfortunately there are people with good intentions that don't know what they are doing. The best example is my local reptile shop. They try to help their customers and for the most part they know what they are talking about, but they are clueless about ball pythons. they don't know the difference between a pastel and a normal.

So instead of filling up my thread with useless posts, just give your opinions on what genetic line you THINK it may be. The animal has been purchased, now I want to know what I exactly have.

yes lemon line pastels are a specific line, but way tomany are sold as lemon pastels that arnt......I have 2 lemon pastels, both have held their yellow color nicely, My graziani line didnt stay bright yellow but really light, and faded....I cant say that i like one more than the other

Truthfully it's probably not from a specific line. Most people don't have a pair of the same line but rather mix and match as the years as have gone on.
It might have some NERD line in it due to the markings but other than that it's anyone's guess.

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Originally Posted by ralphdp21

What type of Pastel is this animal, he doesn't seem like a common normal pastel? Is there even a way to identify different genetic lines?

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your not reading what everyone is saying, ALL lines of pastels are pastels, there is nothing genetically different about a lemon pastel vs any other pastel. NERD selectively bred their pastels to be bright yellow. that's all. Just like lipstick albino boas are just selectivly bred albinos, there nothing geneticly different about them

Unless you have proof that your pastel came from NERD lineage, you can't call it a lemon. end of story. all "lemon" means is simply that stated above, its just a title, a word, it doesn't mean anything genetically

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Originally Posted by ralphdp21

So instead of filling up my thread with useless posts, just give your opinions on what genetic line you THINK it may be. The animal has been purchased, now I want to know what I exactly have.

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his post was not useless, its the truth. You want to know what you exactly have? Its a pastel. It didn;t come with a title in front of its name, so that's all you get.

Want to know where it came from? ask the lady you got it from where she got it from, then ask them where they got it from, then ask them where they got it from....ect.

you can't know a line by looking at it. Only by knowing which breeder produced it and where his animals came from, tracking it back to the first animal brought into captivity from the wild.

may I ask why you care so much that it came from a certain line?

Whether you like it or not your snake is just a common, normal pastel.
Just like every other pastel on the planet is just a common, normal pastel unless it is bred with something else and carries more than one gene.

A true Lemon Pastel is just a common, normal pastel that happens to have been selectively bred to show a little more yellow.

A Grazani Pastel is just a common, normal pastel.

Even the famous Winston, owned by Robin here, while a stunning snake is still just a common, normal pastel.

There are different "grades" of pastel according to many people.

A Low grade pastel is a snake that has lost it's bright yellow coloration and is now almost indistinguishable from a normal.

A mid grade pastel has some yellow coloration into adulthood, or is at least noticablely lighter than a normal.

A high grade pastel had a lot of yellow coloring and fading that lasts it's whole life, you'd never mistake it for anything but a pastel.

I would rate yours as an upper mid grade pastel, a very nice animal with a lot of color. Bred to the right females, he has an excellent chance of improving the colors of his offspring.

But as far as insisting he's anything but a very nice pastel, that is pointless. Far too many people now give the title Lemon to any pastel that is bright as a baby. So unless you have proof that this animal came from NERD, it's not a lemon. Same thing for any of the other "named pastels" if you can't prove it came from that breeder, it's just an exceptional pastel.

By the way, if not having a title upsets you that bad, I'd be happy to take him off your hands for what you gave for him. ;)

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Whether you like it or not your snake is just a common, normal pastel.
Just like every other pastel on the planet is just a common, normal pastel unless it is bred with something else and carries more than one gene.

A true Lemon Pastel is just a common, normal pastel that happens to have been selectively bred to show a little more yellow.

A Grazani Pastel is just a common, normal pastel.

Even the famous Winston, owned by Robin here, while a stunning snake is still just a common, normal pastel.

There are different "grades" of pastel according to many people.

A Low grade pastel is a snake that has lost it's bright yellow coloration and is now almost indistinguishable from a normal.

A mid grade pastel has some yellow coloration into adulthood, or is at least noticablely lighter than a normal.

A high grade pastel had a lot of yellow coloring and fading that lasts it's whole life, you'd never mistake it for anything but a pastel.

I would rate yours as an upper mid grade pastel, a very nice animal with a lot of color. Bred to the right females, he has an excellent chance of improving the colors of his offspring.

But as far as insisting he's anything but a very nice pastel, that is pointless. Far too many people now give the title Lemon to any pastel that is bright as a baby. So unless you have proof that this animal came from NERD, it's not a lemon. Same thing for any of the other "named pastels" if you can't prove it came from that breeder, it's just an exceptional pastel.

By the way, if not having a title upsets you that bad, I'd be happy to take him off your hands for what you gave for him. ;)

Gale

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thank you.
some one who took the time, to thoroughly explain.
i simply was confused as why they would label an already labeled animal.
confusing.

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Originally Posted by ralphdp21

The animal has been purchased, now I want to know what I exactly have.

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Idk maybe u can trace back the family tree and find out :confused::confused:

Being serious i dont think u can be "exactly" sure like you stated as to what line it is. Thats what happens when you buy an animal and dont get the linage of the animal you bought.

With out knowing where the parents came from who knows. It may just be a "nromal" pastel that looks good, it could be a lemon, it could me a $100,000 new line of pastel (obvious sarcasm) without knowing what it was produced from your SOL?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

y=his post was not useless, its the truth. You want to know what you exactly have? Its a pastel. It didn;t come with a title in front of its name, so that's all you get.

Want to know where it came from? ask the lady you got it from where she got it from, then ask them where they got it from, then ask them where they got it from....ect.

you can't know a line by looking at it. Only by knowing which breeder produced it and where his animals came from, tracking it back to the first animal brought into captivity from the wild.

may I ask why you care so much that it came from a certain line?

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Thats what i was trying to say :) Without knowing the parents. their parents, their parents you never know what u have.

If you buy from a good breeder and they have it marked as a lemon pastel then the parents must of came from the nerd line.

If its marked as a pastel. then its that a pastel. you call it a lemon pastel its a lie

If u breed it. produce more and call it a lemon. its a lie.

So unless u know 100% sure where the offspring came from (the parents rather is a nerd line or some random pastel) u can only call it a pastel.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Um, yes I am quite familiar to what a "Lemon" Pastel is. How many "Lemon" Pastels are being sold now days that are actualy "Lemon" Pastels? Who knows maybe they all realy are Lemon Pastels. They all pretty much look alike, it's realy all in the breeding.

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Mine are. Kevin even validated it. I can trace mine 1 generation back to NERD.

As far as you believing it to be a lemon or not you should just enjoy the animal you have and not over think it. A lot of people on here always try and over think what animal they actually have and always ask if its more than what it really is. And 99% of the time its just them over thinking.

Here's a pic of my "normal" pastel. She is sitting at 1600 grams and as you can see she's a higher grade one. Do I believe she is more than just a "normal" pastel? No, but she is awsome and that's all I care about.
http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/a...3/DSCN0030.jpg

I'm not being mean I'm just putting it as it is. People show us a lot of pictures of normals that they believe to be fires, pastels, vanillas or something different and they arnt. Either way you have an awsome pastel and enjoy him.

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Here's a pastel female that I picked up from Garrick DeMeyer for much more than the "normal" price of pastel females. Unknown lineage, as there were two males who were with the female, both super pastels of mixed lineages.

If she produces babies as hot as her, they will also sell for more than your "average" pastel. They don't need a line name. So she's "just" a pastel.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...l/IMG_6266.jpg

Yep I completely agree. I paid more for my pastel as well. I picked her up from tim bailey at the tinley show in 08. She was the hottest pastel on the table and I paid a lot more than any other pastels. The extra money was worth it.

And nice pastel by the way. Should be smokin when it gets some size.

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Originally Posted by ralphdp21

thank you.
some one who took the time, to thoroughly explain.
i simply was confused as why they would label an already labeled animal.
confusing.

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Well, the reason some morphs carry names is because the big names in the business, the ones who made it possible for most of us to have these morphs, named them.

For example, if NERD had an imported, wild caught pastel that they were breeding out and using to improve their stock, while at the same time Greg Grazani had an imported, wild caught pastel if his own he was breeding out in the same way, once they got to the point they were selling babies, it was important to some people to have a way to know which line of imported pastels they were buying, hence NERD used 'Lemon' because they were breeding for bright lemon yellows. Greg used his own name 'Grazani' to distinguish his snakes from NERD's.

Over time of course, other people imported pastels, and snakes from other breeders got cross bred back and forth, so most people just dropped the titles, unless of course they bought from one of the breeders who named the line and can prove the animals parentage.

Lately, people have taken to calling ANY bright baby pastel a lemon, which is unfortunate, because it does cause a lot of confusion. But, if you want to know for sure what you have, buy from a reputable breeder with excellent records. Otherwise, just enjoy your snake for what it is, an excellent example of it's morph.

Gale

crbballs and rabernet - Those are some hot pastels! I also paid more than average for my girl and I don't regret it it! Actually she is my favorite to date!!! If you want a name for your pastel, you can call it repicon pastel! No lies there!

After all, quality is more important than the names, be it banana pastel or mango pastel whatever you like to call it... ;)

Your pastel is nothing special, just a good quality pastel, no big deal. Don't be so defensive over your snake, it's just a pastel.

you know i baught my second ball from becky at wfreptiles in montclair.

he was labeled "pastel" not lemon, graziani, green what have you.

and to be honest, he held his color so spectacularly, that it wouldn't surprise me if i could pass him off as a lemon pastel.

he's now 1000grams, at a year old. and striped neck, striped tail, high blushings, super bright yellows, dirty back(kinda spurractic but not over whelming)

and he's just a normal pastel. you luck out on some and you hit the jackpot with others.

im sure yours is a normal pastel that has nice good solid gene's and would be great to breed him out to continue his beauty.

but i've learned never to come onto the forum about a "is she special"
alot of people(though they may not be intentional) sound mean or rude.

but like text messaging, you cant hear the tone of voice someone is using while typeing.


nice pastel!

People here do get tired of the "I bought a normal but is it something?" threads! The bottom line is you pay for what you get! You pay the price of a normal, you get a normal! If you want a lemon pastel then pay the price of a lemon! If you like the look of a snake and don't know the line it came from, who cares! You should buy what you like and love it it no matter what its worth!

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Originally Posted by seeya205

crbballs and rabernet - Those are some hot pastels! I also paid more than average for my girl and I don't regret it it! Actually she is my favorite to date!!! If you want a name for your pastel, you can call it repicon pastel! No lies there!

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Thanks for the comment. What it comes down to like some one else said is you get what you pay for. There's you different grade and good example of the morphs. Goes with any morph, if you get a reduced pattern clown or a high white pied you are very likely to pay more for that animal. Goes for the same with the quality of pastel you get. Its kinda like buying a new car vs a used car. You will always pay more for the new because its in perfect condition. Same with snakes. New or used bmw is still a bmw.

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Originally Posted by crbballs

Thanks for the comment. What it comes down to like some one else said is you get what you pay for. There's you different grade and good example of the morphs. Goes with any morph, if you get a reduced pattern clown or a high white pied you are very likely to pay more for that animal. Goes for the same with the quality of pastel you get. Its kinda like buying a new car vs a used car. You will always pay more for the new because its in perfect condition. Same with snakes. New or used bmw is still a bmw.

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Agreed. But I never understood why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars more for a high white pied vs any other pied. I can understand with reduced patterns or bright pastels, but I have seen "high whites" going for 600+ dollars over the regular pieds. Seeing that any pied can produced a high or low white snake that morph doesn't seem to be worth the extra money. NOW a bright pastel or a reduced pattern pin/spider. Maybe a hundred over the norm maybe a couple more bucks depending on the snake. Especially SansCeras new Yellow Belly! WOW

I personally do not care for Lemon, Grazani, SKS, NERD or any "line". "Line" to me is just another word for "inbreed".

And I do not care for inbreeding. Yes, it happens, but "out of site, out of mind"

So I skip right over the ones labeled "lemon", NERD or any "line"

Give me the one who was not breed to its mother 10 times just to get a little brighter yellow.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

I personally do not care for Lemon, Grazani, SKS, NERD or any "line". "Line" to me is just another word for "inbreed".

And I do not care for inbreeding. Yes, it happens, but "out of site, out of mind"

So I skip right over the ones labeled "lemon", NERD or any "line"

Give me the one who was not breed to its mother 10 times just to get a little brighter yellow.

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I guess you will never own a AKC dog breed or CFA cat breeds and technically you shouldn't like Ball Pythons at all. Every "breed"/"morph" started with 1 or very few animals who were bred together over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

I personally do not care for Lemon, Grazani, SKS, NERD or any "line". "Line" to me is just another word for "inbreed".

And I do not care for inbreeding. Yes, it happens, but "out of site, out of mind"

So I skip right over the ones labeled "lemon", NERD or any "line"

Give me the one who was not breed to its mother 10 times just to get a little brighter yellow.

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How is a NERD Lemon (or any other "line"), that is most likely being bred to selectively picked normals or other mutations considered inbred?

Lines are established by very selectively chosing what they are bred to, to enhance the morph.

My NERD Lemon has always been bred to carefully selected normals when I want to make more Lemons - none related to him, and has produced babies even nicer than him BECAUSE of the females I selected for him.

Ah well, C'est la vie!

In your example, that would be fine.

But the way I understood it - A guy breeds 2 snakes and one of the offspring looks a little extra special. So he holds it back to breed back to its parent to see if its genetic.
So he breeds the offspring to its parent and gets something similar. Then he decides to breed snake from the 1st clutch to a snake of the new clutch. And it looks extra special too! We have a new line!, lets call it....

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

In your example, that would be fine.

But the way I understood it - A guy breeds 2 snakes and one of the offspring looks a little extra special. So he holds it back to breed back to its parent to see if its genetic.
So he breeds the offspring to its parent and gets something similar. Then he decides to breed snake from the 1st clutch to a snake of the new clutch. And it looks extra special too! We have a new line!, lets call it....

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That's how every morph was first proven to be genetic, be it recessive (you had to breed the first pieds back to their offspring to determine if it was recessive since all the babies were normal in appearance, or if it was just a fluke animal that wasn't genetic (like the Sunset for example)), dom or co-dom. But after the genetics have been determined - most all lines are then bred out once the genetics are understood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

I personally do not care for Lemon, Grazani, SKS, NERD or any "line". "Line" to me is just another word for "inbreed".

And I do not care for inbreeding. Yes, it happens, but "out of site, out of mind"

So I skip right over the ones labeled "lemon", NERD or any "line"

Give me the one who was not breed to its mother 10 times just to get a little brighter yellow.

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Well if you feel this way you should not be into the world of balls or any other snake for that matter. They arnt breed to their mother 10 times, offspring are usually breed back to the parent to prove its genetics or to see if there's a super form of that animal. Doesn't matter what line you buy from chances are there is inbreeding at the very begining. So in that case in what you are trying to argue doesn't make any since if you own a snake. Do your research on breeding. Heck do you like any of the double recessive snakes. Well chances are it was brother to sister not unless its a big breeder that has had multiple clutches from different parents. This forum is very helpful. Try wondering around it and once you get the knowledge on line breeding come back and make your arguement


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Line-breeding when done responsibly doesn't have too many risks. One reason big name breeders charge so much for their animals is because you are paying for them to breed their animals responsibly.
It also isn't as bad for some species to line breed as it is for humans. We have way more opportunities for messy recessive things than snakes do. That being said, there are bad breeders who don't record their breedings and may be producing nasty inbred traits. This is why you have to buy responsibly and avoid shady sellers who aren't bothering to research proper breeding.

all that being said, OP, my lemon girl looks a bit like yours, and he looks like a very nice snake! Whatever he came from, he was either a lucky good looker or had well chosen parents!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's how every morph was first proven to be genetic, be it recessive (you had to breed the first pieds back to their offspring to determine if it was recessive since all the babies were normal in appearance, or if it was just a fluke animal that wasn't genetic (like the Sunset for example)), dom or co-dom. But after the genetics have been determined - most all lines are then bred out once the genetics are understood.

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If only this statement was true.

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Originally Posted by crbballs

Well if you feel this way you should not be into the world of balls or any other snake for that matter. They arnt breed to their mother 10 times, offspring are usually breed back to the parent to prove its genetics or to see if there's a super form of that animal. Doesn't matter what line you buy from chances are there is inbreeding at the very begining. So in that case in what you are trying to argue doesn't make any since if you own a snake. Do your research on breeding. Heck do you like any of the double recessive snakes. Well chances are it was brother to sister not unless its a big breeder that has had multiple clutches from different parents. This forum is very helpful. Try wondering around it and once you get the knowledge on line breeding come back and make your arguement


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Unfortunately this is true for a lot of breeders. Time is of the essence and most people are unwilling to spend the time or the extra money to do things the right way. It also can be said of big breeders and little breeders alike.

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

Line-breeding when done responsibly doesn't have too many risks. One reason big name breeders charge so much for their animals is because you are paying for them to breed their animals responsibly.
It also isn't as bad for some species to line breed as it is for humans. We have way more opportunities for messy recessive things than snakes do. That being said, there are bad breeders who don't record their breedings and may be producing nasty inbred traits. This is why you have to buy responsibly and avoid shady sellers who aren't bothering to research proper breeding.

all that being said, OP, my lemon girl looks a bit like yours, and he looks like a very nice snake! Whatever he came from, he was either a lucky good looker or had well chosen parents!

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Actually your paying for their bills to get paid. It cost A LOT to house, feed and maintain their animals not to mention staff pay, insurance, show table fees, advertisement, etc. etc.. Don't get me wrong they are also the ones who pay 100k+ on those insane imports in-order to breed and distribute to every one else. They make things happen and should get compensated for what they produce, as we all should.

Responsible breeding starts with our selves. Some practice it and others don't. We each have to make that conscious decision. The biggest part of it is knowing that it doesn't stop with us, after we sell an animal each person after us also makes a decision. Imagine what your snakes genetic make-up looks like after about 10-12 years if every clutch was line-bred back to its parents and also sib to sib. It doesn't stop there either, it goes on and on. Then again I am sure some people could care less. Out site outa mind.