is pine really bad?

so i have a bedding which i havent used yet that said made from bits of pine, spruce and fir. can i use it?
i once saw a thread on someone saying pine doesnt really affect ur snake
can someone answer quickly?

Idk I use cypress mulch

sent by two homing pigeons!!

Why take the chance, yes there some that use kiln dried pine with no ill effects to theirs animals, but three sap trees pine, spruce & fir? I'd toss it

I don't know about spruce and fir but kiln dried pine in fine imo. I use it with rats all the time with no ill effect on them (and they are prone to respiratory issues). I'd use it for snakes as well if I didn't like using newspaper more :cool:

Im using cocanut fiber seems to do well.

http://www.pet-tech.com/index.php?pa...mart&Itemid=61

thats what im starting to use on all my snakes and the humidty in 2 of my enclosures i have put it in the humidity is remaining real steady.

This has a lot of debate surrounding it. Pine has a lot of phenols in it that are a natural insecticide. They also can cause respiratory issues and skin issues in humans and animals. However the real issues is kiln drying. If it has been forced dried the phenols are largely baked out and it is much safer. If you are SURE that it has been kiln dried it is likely ok but if you are not I'd not risk it. The problem I have is kiln dried or air dried or just branches and junk chipped who knows for sure.

On another note Cyprus is great but is also a important species that is just used to make chips. Whole trees chewed up for no reason. Look at Melaleuca mulch it is an invasive species and is being killed intentionally anyway. I live in Canada and Melaleuca mulch isn't available at all I use coco fibre.

Apparently it is bad for most small animals because of the oils it secretes.

I would also not chance it. RI are serious and expensive, I wouldn't deal with anything that would raise the risk of one. I'd go with Aspen or Cyprus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

On another note Cyprus is great but is also a important species that is just used to make chips. Whole trees chewed up for no reason. Look at Melaleuca mulch it is an invasive species and is being killed intentionally anyway. I live in Canada and Melaleuca mulch isn't available at all I use coco fibre.

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Ya im down here in southwest florida plenty of cypress here



sent by two homing pigeons!!

alright thanks guys
i was just wondering becuase i had some of the bedding at home because i had ran outta aspen
i guess ill keep my snake in some newspaper and go get some aspen

I know several professional breeders who have been using pine bedding for their snakes for decades and haven't had any trouble. I think the whole 'pine debate' is a bunch of hooie backed up by a lot of speculation but no actual facts.

Phenols are quite volatile, so I think you can greatly reduce the ''bedding phenolic emisions'' by extending and exposing it to direct sun light for a couple of days. I personally use newspaper, cheap and do not hide anything! :)

Using pine, along with hybridizing snakes, will most assuredly land you a hot seat in the corner of hell reserved for those who don't blindly follow. Of course pine is bad. Couldn't be worse. Phenol schmeanol, it's just bad. Bad, bad bad. Only a really bad person would even consider using it to begin with. I sure hope you're not one of those bad people.

You see, I've been one. A pine user. Yup. Got to admit it. Over 4 decades. Literally hundreds of thousands of snakes and mice and rats and all kinds of creatures, the likes of which you will never see again from you toasty corner. But it hasn't been easy. Try being the guy to say Hey pine haters, hey tree bigots, I've got experience longer than you've been alive contradicting you, only to be shot down by an article written 25 years ago by some sophomoric tool of peta or hsus. Oh ho, that's a load of fun.

But I digress. Pine is bad. You'll go to hell if you use it. Don't use pine or you'll go straight to hell. Bad, bad, pine is bad. Don't EVER forget it, not matter how many people prove with DECADES of evidence that what some think is from god's lips is more like from satan's buns.

To be clear. Hybrids- straight to hell.
Pine user, right behind the guy making hybrids.

I wonder if I should just go ahead an get a booth...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Using pine, along with hybridizing snakes, will most assuredly land you a hot seat in the corner of hell reserved for those who don't blindly follow. Of course pine is bad. Couldn't be worse. Phenol schmeanol, it's just bad. Bad, bad bad. Only a really bad person would even consider using it to begin with. I sure hope you're not one of those bad people.

You see, I've been one. A pine user. Yup. Got to admit it. Over 4 decades. Literally hundreds of thousands of snakes and mice and rats and all kinds of creatures, the likes of which you will never see again from you toasty corner. But it hasn't been easy. Try being the guy to say Hey pine haters, hey tree bigots, I've got experience longer than you've been alive contradicting you, only to be shot down by an article written 25 years ago by some sophomoric tool of peta or hsus. Oh ho, that's a load of fun.

But I digress. Pine is bad. You'll go to hell if you use it. Don't use pine or you'll go straight to hell. Bad, bad, pine is bad. Don't EVER forget it, not matter how many people prove with DECADES of evidence that what some think is from god's lips is more like from satan's buns.

To be clear. Hybrids- straight to hell.
Pine user, right behind the guy making hybrids.

I wonder if I should just go ahead an get a booth...

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lmao
thank you for the first good laugh I’ve had all day. I often wonder were these "facts" come from and how many times they must be repeated before they become accepted. I for years used cedar mulch to house all hundreds of snakes, bitis, agkistrodons, corns, kings, rats (old world and new), boids, and many many more. and I never not even once had any health issue that could be in any way linked to the substrate that I was using. after awhile I switched to paper because the collection was too large to use substrate that cost's so much, and now that my collection is very small (just 7 animals) I use shredded aspen because I like the way it looks and it's easy to spot clean. but I really wouldn't shy away from using any substrate that has been proven to be good for maintaining small animals for decades upon decades just because you have read the "facts" about it being "dangerous":rolleyes:

No facts are you serious? lets see phenol or carbolic acid is it toxic?

Is Oxford university chem department a good enough reference?

The question isn't if phenol is toxic it is REALLY REALLY TOXIC. No Question at all. The question is how much phenol is in pine and how much is broken down in kiln drying. I did a lot of research a long while ago on pine chips. I can't be bothered dig up that information as it was in the 80's and is in a filing cabnet in the back of my office. The short answer is kiln dried pine has much less toxic compounds than raw pine. Pine dust actually all wood dust is not good for anyone I checked and the recommended amounts is not greater than 5mg/m3 for softwoods (that is a fair bit you can see 5mg in the air it looks dusty) look it up us department of labour wood dust.

If the pine chips are full of saw dust and has not been kiln dried don't use it. If it is clean and dust free kiln dried it is fine. The question is do you know what you are buying and are you sure.

Information changes all the time, new studies new ideas, saying I did it for years with no problems it is safe is naive. My great grand father was a blacksmith he lived and slept in a room with a coal forge. He died at 89. He never got black lung so coal dust is safe right?

For the record I am totally convinced that properly kiln dried pine that has been run through a blower to remove the dust is perfectly safe. The problem is is that what you are being supplied with.


Comenius - European Cooperation on School Education
Hands-on Science (H-Sci) Project: Chemical Safety Database

Chemical Safety Data: Phenol




Common synonyms

Hydroxybenzene, benzenol, phenyl alcohol

Formula

C6H5OH

Physical properties

Form: colourless crystals
Stability: Stable, flammable
Melting point: 40 - 42 C
Boiling point: 185 C
Specific gravity: 1.07

Principal hazards

** Warning: Phenol presents several hazards and must be handled with great care.
*** Phenol is toxic if you inhale or swallow it. It also passes readily through skin, so will be harmful if you touch it.
*** Phenol belongs to the class of "systemic poisons", which means that it can damage parts of the body far away from where it entered the body. This makes it a more hazardous chemical than most you will encounter in the laboratory.
*** Phenol is corrosive, so if it gets in contact with your skin it may cause burns, and if you inhale it it may cause lung damage.
*** In addition, the vapour pressure of phenol at room temperature is quite high for a solid. This means that harmful levels of vapour can build up if it is used in an area with poor ventilation.

Safe handling

Phenol is a toxic material. It should not be used if there is a safer alternative. Safety glasses are essential. You should also wear protective gloves to keep phenol off your skin, and use a fume cupboard so that you do not breathe in the vapour.

Emergency

Eye contact: Immediately flush the eye with water. Call for medical help.
Skin contact: Wash off with soap and water. If there are signs of skin damage call for medical help.
If swallowed: Call for immediate medical help.

Disposal

Store for later disposal as solid waste. Containers of phenol and waste containing phenol should be kept closed.

Protective equipment

Safety glasses, protective gloves (butyl rubber or neoprene are both suitable materials).

Further information

Phenol
Chemicals in the HSci database
More extensive safety data

Link to the Oxford HSci web site
We have tried to make this information as accurate and useful as possible, but can take no responsibility for its use, misuse, or accuracy. We have not verified this information, and cannot guarantee that it is up-to-date.
Oxford, August 23, 2006 - This material added at the suggestion of Tulle Hazelrigg.

More than likely, the datasheet is talking about pure, extracted phenol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

No facts are you serious? lets see phenol or carbolic acid is it toxic?

Is Oxford university chem department a good enough reference?

The question isn't if phenol is toxic it is REALLY REALLY TOXIC. No Question at all. The question is how much phenol is in pine and how much is broken down in kiln drying. I did a lot of research a long while ago on pine chips. I can't be bothered dig up that information as it was in the 80's and is in a filing cabnet in the back of my office.

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Just out of curiosity, when you say you 'did a lot of research' does that mean you raised several generations of snakes on pine shavings over several decades and studied the effects on them? Or does it mean you read a lot of books on the subject?

I guess I'm just lucky.

About 30 years of keeping animals on pine. No issues. Not one, not ever and I've never met a person who has had an issue either.

Pssssssst. Here's a dirty little secret:

Aspen has phenols in it too.

Yes, if you rely on the almighty Google, you might find a few claims to the contrary. The fact remains - aspen contains phenols.

In fact, one of the defenses that aspen has against insects is chemical warfare in which it releases phenols to ward of insects that feed on it's foliage.

No not at all, a safety study on medical issues of professional wood workers in a small university woodshop. No snakes just people and respiratory issues, allergic skin reactions from repeated exposure , and septum cancer. I understand snakes are not humans but the lung(s) of snakes are similar in function so likely a similar result. Yes that is extracted phenol from wood materials. As I said kiln dried is likely no problem but if it smell 'piney' that is phenols. That is why it resists molds, fungi and insects, it kills them. Where I am from it is law that all pine for all construction be kiln dried. once dried it can be stored in the elements but it has to be dried. The shavings however can be branches ect as it is animal bedding and unregulated. I am not saying it is bad just know what you are buying and if you don't maybe you should find a new supplier. Sunning the chips in open air may also work likely it will dry the oils out of the chips. The oil in pine is the problem that contains phenol, extracted pine oil is harmful and the chips contain a fair bit of pine oil you can feel it. I actually don't really care if you believe me or not, there is evidence enough to question the use of non kiln dried pine shaving and health issues in humans. Maybe it doesn't effect snakes at all, no idea but YOU handle it don't you?

http://www.gunnisonenergy.com/permit...awdustMSDS.pdf

http://lonepineltd.com/operatingdocs...tMSDS-2007.pdf

http://www.calco.com.au/Downloads/MS...treated-35.pdf

http://www.saspine.com.au/Sawdust%20...20Softwood.doc

Hey Skip,
Yup aspen has phenol too about 1/3 the amount of pine but yup it is there and newspaper has dioxin and coco has trace fertilizers and ... it is about amounts. I know a horse barn owner who has just been treated for septum cancer. I don't know if it is related to pine or not, 30 years shoveling pine shavings.

I just an suggesting that buy only screened or blown kiln dried pine that is all.

I am sorry I even opened my big mouth I guess serving on a OHSC in my work place has made me cautious. I personally twenty years ago would have scoffed at you telling me that sticking my hands in photo chemicals everyday would effect my health today. Too bad I was WRONG and am paying for it now.
:(

alex

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I know several professional breeders who have been using pine bedding for their snakes for decades and haven't had any trouble. I think the whole 'pine debate' is a bunch of hooie backed up by a lot of speculation but no actual facts.

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MSDS sheets are based on scientific study generally accepted as fact. Can you back up that pine (or any wood) is completely non toxic has no acute effects, in anything other than speculation? Do you have hard fact to make your point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

MSDS sheets are based on scientific study generally accepted as fact. Can you back up that pine (or any wood) is completely non toxic has no acute effects, in anything other than speculation? Do you have hard fact to make your point?

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Would you consider several decades of actual use to be hard fact? Or do you only believe in it if some one has written a paper on it?

MarkS,
Hey yes real experience can never be discounted and I would never imply that that is the case. I also take MSDS sheets as extreme cases as well. My point is just this,

All softwoods have phenol to some degree, Pine more than many. Kiln drying pine reduces the amount of oil in the pine and pine oil is the carrier for the phenol.

Pine chips at least in my area come in three 'grades' (all sold under the same name) The lowest is pine wood, bark, saw dust and chain saw like bits. Basically it is branches that are chipped and mill floor sweepings. It is very very strong smelling and is green wood. The next is ends and off cuts little, bark and but lots of saw dust and sanding dust. It is all kiln dried for the most part. The last is just chips it is from kiln dried and has been 'blown' to remove most of the saw dust and fine bits.

My main point is that the first two grades are not healthy for people to be around in long term exposure everyday. ( I know that snakes are not people but at a very base level lungs are lungs and dust in lungs is not good period.) I would make a bit of a guess and say that keeping snakes in very dusty softwood of any kind is not likely a good idea.

the last kind that actually has been produced for animal bedding is likely safe, the amounts of dust and phenols being inside an acceptable level.

The OP stated "so i have a bedding which i havent used yet that said made from bits of pine, spruce and fir. can i use it?" That sounds very much like scrap bits of junk from a shop floor or scrap bin to me and has not been prepared for small animal use it may have ticks or other insects, cedar bits, and lots of dust. That floor grade I can get often has nails and screws in it as well as rags and glue bits varnish bits and everything that you might find on the floor of a busy wood shop, but it is usually free or cheap. To me unless you are sure you are getting a high quality product it is simply not worth the risk.

I don't know any professional breeder whom would ever think to place a breeding snake in such a risky bedding. I would guess that if I shipped a bag of the junk I get sold as pine bedding the first time you found fibreglass bits in it and a screw or two you would never use it either.

Kiln dried dust free pine is ok but are you sure that is what you are buying? As I stated earlier, phenol is a toxic compound in concentration pine repels and kills insects so does Douglas fir, You said aspen as well I have never heard that of aspen but 'round here it is called poplar and is 'junk' wood and is used in fireplaces. Spruce is gummy as all get out. i would not use Douglas fir chips or dust nor spruce for that matter.

Pine is a bit of a wild card and I would be cautious of any mixed species wood chips for that reason alone. High grade pine I am sure is no worse than any other softwood. I hope that clarifies my point.

WOW.

You know, the pro's on this site never stop amazing me....

I did a search on this exact subject today just because I have ALWAYS wondered how much truth / fiction was involved with the whole dried pine shavings being bad for reptiles. I had always suspected that some scientist probably did some research on pine, and made assumptions that it would be bad for animals.... and then everyone else just assumed it to be true.

Thank you Mark and Wes for stepping up against the masses to state facts. :bow: It takes a lot of courage to do that, especially with such a religious subject!

I have been getting dried pine shavings from my local feed store for my rats for years. $6 for 10 cubic feet of it! THAT is a lot of substrate for the $$$! I am happy to say that I just switched every single one of my snake racks over to the pine shavings.

Thanks again guys. You just made my life much easier. I will take 40 years of experience over ANYTHING some science guy (who is probably afraid of snakes) declares as fact.

Mike Cavanaugh



LOL!

Thank you very much Mark and Wilomn for stepping up with the truth