Question on Breeding Large amounts of rats

I'm looking to produce 3000-5000 rats per month

How many 7 tub high racks would I need to make this work (including racks set aside for moms giving birth)

I put 1.6 in each tub for breeding and 3 for birthing and am using the cement mixing tubs

And with a 1.6 in each tub, is it better to separate moms when preggo or not? I hear a lot of debate on both sides

Thanks!!

I just typed out an entire novel about large scale rat breeding, but then I decided that maybe the abridged version might be better.

Build your racks using large mortar tubs and only build them five levels high. I tried the six level racks, but its such a pain in the ___ to reach into and work in the levels that are above 72" in height.

You can run 1.6 animals in each of these tubs, so you will have 30 females per rack. Count on each rack giving you 250 rats per month. DO NOT REMOVE THE MALE.

At that rate you will need four racks per 1000 rats, and 16 racks for 4000 rats.

So, in my opinion, you would need 16 racks.

I would also add 8 more racks for growing out breeders.

This brings your total to 20 racks.

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Originally Posted by reptilegirl07

is it better to separate moms when preggo or not? I hear a lot of debate on both sides

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You'd hear a lot more debate about it here too. There a large scale breeders that separate, and those that don't. Why not try both and see which you like the best.

In the end, you are going to do what you think is the best way to manage your colony. :gj:

too vague...


you need 3000-5000...sounds like a dream. Too much of a variation. If you are feeding or even selling you have a better idea than such a wide range

rats... also a vague term. rats pinks, small, adults, a mix? Way too vague.

suzuki4life Sorry if my post was too vague for you, seems like the others did just fine with the answers, BTW thanks tom!!

I am gathering just basic information so I don't have an exact number I want to produce yet, hence my range. Call it a dream but business people actually call it research.

I know I will want to produce at least 3000 since that is what someone wants me to produce for just them, but I would also like to produce extra to meet some other local people's demand.

Thanks for the advice

I'm not going to give you the old "I told you so speach" but if you just jump in and build 20 racks and start slamming rats together you are going to have a lot of "I told you so's" waiting for you LOL. Start small.

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Originally Posted by reptilegirl07

suzuki4life Sorry if my post was too vague for you, seems like the others did just fine with the answers, BTW thanks tom!!

I am gathering just basic information so I don't have an exact number I want to produce yet, hence my range. Call it a dream but business people actually call it research.

I know I will want to produce at least 3000 since that is what someone wants me to produce for just them, but I would also like to produce extra to meet some other local people's demand.

Thanks for the advice

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ask your advice givers the last time they produced 5000 rats a month. I don't like giving advice based on theory. Second, ask Tom who has more actual expertise hands on doing exactly what you hope to do. Tom has a similar game plan figured out but isn't there yet. You are a fine example of why good, precise and knowledgeable help stays away from replying to you.

And for the record, I run 1.8 not 1.6.

We know 3 med (producing 100-500rats per week) sized rat breeders and they average 3 small rats per tub per week. This means in a 1.5 with out removing the male you will get about 12 small rats per month. So you would need 250-420 (36-60 racks plus grow up bins for meds and larges) tubs with all of your females producing at optimum level. You will also need to feed good quality food to get this level of production. Something like mazuri 6F 5m30 rat block. And you need to replace your females ever 8 months or so and need to keep them clean and healthy.

Good luck you will need lots of time, money and space.

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking general questions...so long as you don't expect anything more than general answers. Nothing wrong with exploring a concept to get some sort of idea of what is involved.

And nothing wrong with folks putting in their two cents if you ask a question on a public forum. ;)

Here's my pennies...based on what seems like a more-than-casual inquiry about huge-scale rodent breeding of both rats and mice. These are questions that must be considered along with how many racks to build.

What size building(s) do you have for breeding on this scale? Are the buildings well ventilated? Do they have running water? Do they have sinks and room for cleaning tubs?

Do you have the skills necessary to build sturdy racks? To build watering systems? To maintain them? Or will you have to hire that work out?

What kind of capital do you have to start this business with? Do you have enough to run it without any income-generating stock for several months?

How much time per day do you have to devote to cleaning, sorting, cleaning, feeding, cleaning, watering, cleaning, killing, cleaning, packaging and shipping your stock? Do you have anyone to help you? Will you hire help?

Have you run any numbers at all to find out how much monthly overhead you will need to be able to cover...including the months before you produce marketable stock? Rent for buildings? Utilities? Bedding? Food?

Do you have a plan for disposing of used bedding and dead (unusable) rodents? I've seen some moderately large-scale breeding colonies, and they produce TONS of waste that must be disposed of somehow.

Anyhow...that's just the tip of the iceberg...questions and concerns that spring immediately to mind that one should work on when considering a business of this nature and on this scale.

As others have suggested, I would also suggest starting SMALL and getting a feel for it before investing heavily. Also, you might try to visit a large rodent breeding facility (if you haven't already) to get an idea of the tremendous amount of work and logistical concerns are actually involved.

Great post JLC :gj:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

ask your advice givers the last time they produced 5000 rats a month. I don't like giving advice based on theory. Second, ask Tom who has more actual expertise hands on doing exactly what you hope to do. Tom has a similar game plan figured out but isn't there yet. You are a fine example of why good, precise and knowledgeable help stays away from replying to you.

And for the record, I run 1.8 not 1.6.

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Hey, I never said that you run 1.6 LOL. I may eventually move up to 1.8 but for the moment I am having very good luck NOT losing pinks running 1.6 per tub. You breed solely for feeders. I also supply the pet market as well, so I don't like to chance losing pinks that could turn out to be something very cool in 14 days.

Here's my pennies...based on what seems like a more-than-casual inquiry about huge-scale rodent breeding of both rats and mice. These are questions that must be considered along with how many racks to build.

What size building(s) do you have for breeding on this scale? Are the buildings well ventilated? Do they have running water? Do they have sinks and room for cleaning tubs?


-I have explored several options and I have found a location who will rent to me and they are 4 miles from my house. The location comes in two sizes at a very reasonable price for 650 sqft or 1300 sqft, I haven't decided what we'd get yet. They have sinks, water, swamp cooler, and electric and ventilation. This is who we will probably go with unless we just buy a property and build our own facility. We would like to do a test run renting first for about a year first



Do you have the skills necessary to build sturdy racks? To build watering systems? To maintain them? Or will you have to hire that work out?

-My boyfriend is an engineer and I'm pretty handy. I've built a couple racks already and I just had about 40 shipping crates delivered that were used for iron gates so they're huge and have the perfect wood for racks :-)

What kind of capital do you have to start this business with? Do you have enough to run it without any income-generating stock for several months?

- We have one business generating about $1000.00 per month. We plan on using that to help start up our second business (rodent breeding). We also have money saved up and are looking to have at least 12 months of rent saved before we jump into a lease. We also want all the racks built and ready to go.

How much time per day do you have to devote to cleaning, sorting, cleaning, feeding, cleaning, watering, cleaning, killing, cleaning, packaging and shipping your stock? Do you have anyone to help you? Will you hire help?

-I am an entrepreneur and I run my first business, which only takes me 30 minutes a day to do. I have plenty of time to be at the facility and had planned to spend 8+ hours a day at the facility if needs be and clean 6 days a week (I'm segmenting the facility into 6 parts so that I can clean one part a day and the facility gets cleaned once a week with the exception of mice and asf's which get cleaned multiple times a week) I'll also be going in on the 7th day and do a double check on everything. I also have a gas chamber with a large size (3 ft) CO2 canister with a valve.

Have you run any numbers at all to find out how much monthly overhead you will need to be able to cover...including the months before you produce marketable stock? Rent for buildings? Utilities? Bedding? Food?

-The swamp cooler is piratically free to run (about 40 a month in summer), we have our rent down, and we're speaking to several companies about ordering several tons of food and bedding per month/every couple months to get a good discount. Once I figure out how many racks/rats I need to reach my monthly goals, I can calculate food costs with a decent amount of accuracy using my current rats.

Do you have a plan for disposing of used bedding and dead (unusable) rodents? I've seen some moderately large-scale breeding colonies, and they produce TONS of waste that must be disposed of somehow.

- We are looking into that as well. We are looking into if we can use their dumpster or if we have to rent our own.

Anyhow...that's just the tip of the iceberg...questions and concerns that spring immediately to mind that one should work on when considering a business of this nature and on this scale.

-Please, if you can keep the list of questions and concerns going, that would be GREAT!!! I am really looking for someone who has more experience than I with this to give me things to consider like that so that I can be prepared!

As others have suggested, I would also suggest starting SMALL and getting a feel for it before investing heavily. Also, you might try to visit a large rodent breeding facility (if you haven't already) to get an idea of the tremendous amount of work and logistical concerns are actually involved.

- I have been breeding small scale for about a year now. I have watched several videos but I don't know of any large scale facilities in the area (I have also spoke to several snake breeders in the area who said there were none in the area so he has to order from another state). Personally I enjoy the rodents and have had fun the last year with my rodents :-)

Please let me know of other things I should be thinking of and any videos, articles, etc I should look at. Thanks!!! :-)

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Originally Posted by tomfromtheshade

Hey, I never said that you run 1.6 LOL. I may eventually move up to 1.8 but for the moment I am having very good luck NOT losing pinks running 1.6 per tub. You breed solely for feeders. I also supply the pet market as well, so I don't like to chance losing pinks that could turn out to be something very cool in 14 days.

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what have you produced cooler than that Manx?:D:D:D:D

at 5000 rats a month, dumping tubs roughly every 7-10 days. You will fill a large dumpster each cycle.

If you are in the south and are worrying about heat. Run hardwood pellet bedding instead and you can get with next to nothing with cooling BUT you won't be running 1.6, maybe 1.4.

I was looking into those pellets. Why would I only be able to run 1.4? I'm running 1.7 right now in a smaller version of what I want to do and I'm not having any issues with heat or anything

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Originally Posted by reptilegirl07

Please let me know of other things I should be thinking of and any videos, articles, etc I should look at. Thanks!!! :-) [/B]

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Sounds to me like you've given this a lot more practical thought than a lot of "big dreamers" we encounter. Seems like you have a solid plan, or at least a foundation of one.

The only other consideration that comes to mind right now is your source for your foundation stock. Where do you get enough rodents to begin such huge colonies? How do you make sure they are healthy both in terms of cleanliness (illness/disease/parasites) and in terms of genetics? How do you make sure you get a genetically diverse colony?

These are only questions in my head. I have no answers. :P But if I were looking at this sort of endeavor, I would definitely be looking for those answers for myself! :)

Thank you so much for the reply! We are very serious about this! I didn't know that becoming a big scale rodent breeder was something many people "dream" about LoL ;-)

Keeping my colony genetically diversified was one question I'm having trouble with answering!

I have two people I got my current colony from, and I just picked up several unrealetd males. But I'm having trouble finding someone who can supply me with the amount of females I need.

My thought on this was to take my cuttent babies and hold back all my females. I would then take my unrelated males and pair all the females with them.

I have one other friend who breeds and her lines are totally unrelated, so I would take all of her males and trade for mine so that I can add new blood.

Once I have my colony put together I will have to be very, very careful about adding new blood to my colony! I would hate to introduce parasites, disease, etc. (i'm already pretty careful)

I'm still trying to figure out how to keep my colonies genetically diverse. I think the inbreeding coefficient is about 20 so I have some wiggle room but I would like to keep my colony healthy.

I found someone who has enough rats to give me about 100 every so often but I need to check on their facility and make sure their rats are healthy.

Any suggestions on what to look for before adding new rats/mice to my colony?


And my rats will be vacuum sealed on trays and frozen right away. We have also priced out the supplies to vacuum seal and are looking into a more commercial vacuum sealers so that supplies can be purchased in bulk.

We have put a lot of thought into this and are becoming more and more excited as we're getting closer and closer to our goals.

Hehe...I didn't mean specifically dreaming about rats. :P But we see folks who think they are qualified to set up a large-scale rescue simply because they have a heart for animals....or folks who just recently got their first snake then suddenly start throwing money at every morph they can get their hands on until they are overwhelmed at the feeding bills and the amount of care a large colony of animals need. I don't know how many times I've seen people get in over their heads and end up selling the whole kit'n'kaboodle because they didn't consider the big picture and simply grabbed whatever they wanted just because they wanted it.

Aaannny how...sorry...off topic rant there!

I can't answer questions about looking for healthy rats other than what I'm sure you already know. (Clear eyes, no sores, no runny poops, etc) It'll be years before I'm in a position to actually breed my own feeders, so I don't have personal experience with it. I just ask a lot of questions. :P

I wouldnt call myself large scale by any means, but i produce about 500ish babbies a month, i have the rat racks, and even smaller racks i call my asf/mouse racks. The asf/mouse racks i dont seperate in birthing tubs but my norway rats i do seperate them in rodent lab cages and it has droped my mortality of rat pups to almost none. As far as getting "healthy rats" its harder than u think because of the simple fact that some rats from one colony will build up tollerences to a certian virus and when u intrduce rats from another colony ur gonna have some die off.

I have zero experience breeding rodents on a large scale. I do have experience with raising horses.

As for the genetics. I wouldn't be too worried about that. A good plan and schedule will do all the work. Hold back your females for breeding and plan on introducing unrelated males. Lets assume you have an unrelated 1.6 colony. You would know your math better than I but lets further assume and average of 12 pups per doe. That's statistically 36 unrelated males per month. As you said rodents can tolerate a bit of inbreeding, 20 generations minimum for scientific testing. You should be able to do the math and set up a schedule that accounts for statistical anomalies (bad luck), and produce plenty of unrelated males with 1 or 2 tubs. Just mark your tubs according to the genetic line it contains and you should be able to keep a healthy population with very little new blood. Of course when I say "wouldn't be to worried" and "very little new blood" I mean in the context of you trying to produce 4000 rats a month.

My big concern would be disposal of bedding. Sending all that waste to the dump is going to be costly and horrible for the environment. What you actually do with all the waste kinda depends on where you live and what your means are. If you have land where you can do this, you can pile bedding up in the open air and it will compost naturally. You want to make sure that you are not throwing non compostable material in with the bedding, that you are not going to pollute potable water and that you have a large enough area. For the horses we would pile the shavings and manure about 3 feet high before moving on. You can return to that area a few years later and go another 3 feet. If you have any local farms you might be able to work out a deal, or if you have a local race track they might also have a place you can dump. Your local dump might also have a place for compostable waste.

I would be very concerned about smell. I have found a few DIY Carbon Air Purifier plans online in my studies. Here is a link to one on our forums. http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=55186

If you have the startup and you have a buyer, I say go for it. My family has traditionally made a living tending animals and it can be very rewarding. The worst part is that its a 7 day a week job. That includes Christmas and New Year. Have a plan for someone to help so you can take a day off. What is your plan for when (not if) you get sick. I would have more tubs and racks than you need ready. Have the tubs in the racks, bedding in, water supply ready to be turned on. If an emergency comes up you, or your backup person, can get away with just moving some rodents on a day.

At the track we had a start time and an end time. If we had all our work done for the day and it wasn't time to leave you started in on tomorrows work. Clean some tubs, build another rack, top of your water. Anything you can do today to make tomorrow easier. You never know what tomorrow will bring.

One last piece of advice. Put signs up on how you do things. A sign so that a random person of the street could find the food, knows how to change the water, where is the bedding. Even if you are the only one who ever reads it.

Clean your space. At the end of every day I would sweep a dirt barn floor. As a kid I never understood why I was sweeping a dirt floor. As an adult I know that you have to be in that space for a large portion of your life. Having respect for your space, means having respect for yourself and that all necessary for having respect for your animals.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

what have you produced cooler than that Manx?:D:D:D:D

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There is always blue, self, rex, dumbo manx.

Shh...

I'm actually in the process of trying to build a small army of Manx males to do my dirty work and I am going to be incorporating the gene into a lot of different things.

How about transmogrophiers? LOL. They start out one color and turn siamese. Its pretty incredible to watch them change.

I know that you play it off, but you're dying to get one of my black self dumbo males to add to your colony LOL. I have one saved for you man. You just have to say the word.

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Originally Posted by tomfromtheshade

There is always blue, self, rex, dumbo manx.

Shh...

I'm actually in the process of trying to build a small army of Manx males to do my dirty work and I am going to be incorporating the gene into a lot of different things.

How about transmogrophiers? LOL. They start out one color and turn siamese. Its pretty incredible to watch them change.

I know that you play it off, but you're dying to get one of my black self dumbo males to add to your colony LOL. I have one saved for you man. You just have to say the word.

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you see that's cheating. You are taking an existing morph and adding to it or taking away. You need to start out with two commons and change things until you get a good strain. Making a morph from a morph doesn't take skill, it just takes time:rofl:

rookie!:rolleye2:

so far my best is a few dumbo double rexes , hairless dumbo soon to follow

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

ask your advice givers the last time they produced 5000 rats a month. I don't like giving advice based on theory. Second, ask Tom who has more actual expertise hands on doing exactly what you hope to do. Tom has a similar game plan figured out but isn't there yet. You are a fine example of why good, precise and knowledgeable help stays away from replying to you.

And for the record, I run 1.8 not 1.6.

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[How rude.]

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Originally Posted by JIFFY

[How rude.]

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Does it take one to know one?

You don't know as much as you think you do. I'm sure you've heard, and most likely ignored that, many MANY times before.

You're not rude, but you are rather prickly yourself.

Do you know any words that have more than 2 syllables?

Just an idea. I have a small colony and produce around 400-500 a month. I would think that it would be easier to build large holding pens. (5x10ft). I don't know how or out of what. I would run 1.25 in those pens. I would take all the females out after 2 weeks and put them into birthing tubs. I have had higher production by only having 2 females giving birth together. I used to have 3 females in a tub and had lower numbers because of fighting over the babies. If I had a place to expand, that is what I would do. It would take a lot less time to clean larger pens than individual tubs. I also give my females a week or 2 before being bred again. I have experienced smaller litters when being bred back to back. I have 27 tubs and it takes me about 3 hrs a week to clean.
Hope this helps and Good Luck

if you build a 5'x10' rat pen, I want pictures!!!!!

you have a small colony but you have 27 tubs?

It takes you 3 hours to clean 27 tubs? Are you boiling each tub?

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

if you build a 5'x10' rat pen, I want pictures!!!!!

you have a small colony but you have 27 tubs?

It takes you 3 hours to clean 27 tubs? Are you boiling each tub?

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LOL Almost. They get washed and disinfected with bleach. Its my Friday night date, so I take my time.

I also switch breeders and give a quick health exam to each rat.

Guess I'll pipe in also..
*I see you are renting a building, is it a stand alone building, or in a strip mall kind of thing?
*Does the landlord know what you are intending to do in his rented space? Rats are destructive.
*That kind of numbers would easily fill a 6 yard dumpster with waste. Dumpsters are cheap, but not that cheap, keep that in mind.
*Find your feed source before you start! Mills constantly run out of food supplies for a few weeks at a time. Find at least two local sources to get your blocks from.
*They smell.:D alot.:O Exhaust fan first!

I just switched over to harem breeding myself, after years of breeding 1.2 per lab cage. I get way better numbers breeding 1.6-1.8 per tub and pulling preggos out a week before they pop. Usually run either a solo female, or 2 females per hatching tub. Not nearly as many pinkie deaths that way.
I built my breeding racks, 6 high, side by side. That way, the 12 tubs are on a single watering bucket.

Once you break 1.10 the breeding suffers severely. Most males just can not keep up solo.