liability issue

I have been selling some dubia roaches here and there. I recently had an order and the seller paid for overnight shipping. I told him that the order could not ship before the weekend but I would do my best to ship on Monday. I admit, I did not follow up and tell the buyer the item was shipped however I did ship on Monday as I said I would. I personally could go either way on this dispute hence the public posting for opinion. Anyway, the item was shipped and US postal puts the box between his doors. Either there was no knock or he did not hear one. The box sat in the heat and all the roaches died. In your opinion, who is liable for the mistake? If both parties are liable in what amounts?

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I have been selling some dubia roaches here and there. I recently had an order and the seller paid for overnight shipping. I told him that the order could not ship before the weekend but I would do my best to ship on Monday. I admit, I did not follow up and tell the buyer the item was shipped however I did ship on Monday as I said I would. I personally could go either way on this dispute hence the public posting for opinion. Anyway, the item was shipped and US postal puts the box between his doors. Either there was no knock or he did not hear one. The box sat in the heat and all the roaches died. In your opinion, who is liable for the mistake? If both parties are liable in what amounts?

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I think the legal liability depends on your state commerce laws. What was the contractual, understanding implied or written of guaranteeing a live shipment?

There is no 'meeting of the minds,' if the buyer has paid for an item, and they received a dead shipment. I personally think if the buyer is 50% responsible then they could request 50% of the cost of the roaches, but no shipping fees should be refunded, since the item did ship. If it was understood by the buyer that the item would ship on Monday, and you both understood this, then I don't see any real liability if the cause of death of the product was due to negligence on the part of the buyer. If it was not agreed that the item would ship on a specific date and the buyer was completely unaware of when the package would arrive, then I would think you had some culpability.

IMHO

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I think the legal liability depends on your state commerce laws. What was the contractual, understanding implied or written of guaranteeing a live shipment?

There is no 'meeting of the minds,' if the buyer has paid for an item, and they received a dead shipment. I personally think if the buyer is 50% responsible then they could request 50% of the cost of the roaches, but no shipping fees should be refunded, since the item did ship.

IMHO

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overnighting them was used to help guarantee a live arrival. Now overnighting a package doesn't do a thing if it is allowed to lay on your doorstep for 9 hours in the heat. I understand what you have written, but I am looking more about ethics than legal. Most laws are unethical when placed in real world settings IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I think the legal liability depends on your state commerce laws. What was the contractual, understanding implied or written of guaranteeing a live shipment?

There is no 'meeting of the minds,' if the buyer has paid for an item, and they received a dead shipment. I personally think if the buyer is 50% responsible then they could request 50% of the cost of the roaches, but no shipping fees should be refunded, since the item did ship. If it was understood by the buyer that the item would ship on Monday, and you both understood this, then I don't see any real liability if the cause of death of the product was due to negligence on the part of the buyer. If it was not agreed that the item would ship on a specific date and the buyer was completely unaware of when the package would arrive, then I would think you had some culpability.

IMHO

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So if you shipped someone a snake, it was left on their doorstep on the date you said it should be there and they didn't bother to check to see if it arrived: your stance is tough noogies?:D:rofl:

If you value the business of selling them, it might be best to chalk it up as a loss and send more, free of charge. Good customer service can only help spread the word (if that's what you would like), but he may just bad mouth you if all you do is request a refund for the dead roaches minus shipping as you did ship it.

If somebody personally said they'd *try their best* to ship it on Monday for a Tuesday delivery, i wouldn't be waiting around unless I got confirmation that the person was indeed sending/sent the package.

Who knows, the loss of some roaches could mean more business if he talks to his friends and gives them your info. If it's expensive to ship them, you could ask for just shipping costs and you would send what he ordered that died + some just to show you value their business. You never specified on the amount of roaches/cost, but if you're trying to expand the business/side job, whatever you want to call it, 1 bad experience can turn away several potential buyers. Remember, its not the truth, but how it's spun!

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

So if you shipped someone a snake, it was left on their doorstep on the date you said it should be there and they didn't bother to check to see if it arrived: your stance is tough noogies?:D:rofl:

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I just feel like from an ethical perspective, the buyer has an obligation as the owner of that animal to ensure that he/she is available upon arrival of the package. When I had my snake delivered, I tracked it directly online from doorstep to doorstep. It's a live animal and its part of responsible pet ownership to ensure the animal arrives safely and in good health. The owner should of been on the lookout since they knew it was coming that day, don't you think?

You shipped the product as agreed, in the manner agreed, in the time frame agreed - how and why are you responsible if they recipient didn't keep an eye out for the package or the shipper mishandled the delivery?

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Originally Posted by ScubaRyan

If you value the business of selling them, it might be best to chalk it up as a loss and send more, free of charge. Good customer service can only help spread the word (if that's what you would like), but he may just bad mouth you if all you do is request a refund for the dead roaches minus shipping as you did ship it.

If somebody personally said they'd *try their best* to ship it on Monday for a Tuesday delivery, i wouldn't be waiting around unless I got confirmation that the person was indeed sending/sent the package.

Who knows, the loss of some roaches could mean more business if he talks to his friends and gives them your info. If it's expensive to ship them, you could ask for just shipping costs and you would send what he ordered that died + some just to show you value their business. You never specified on the amount of roaches/cost, but if you're trying to expand the business/side job, whatever you want to call it, 1 bad experience can turn away several potential buyers. Remember, its not the truth, but how it's spun!

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I personally feel my liability is less than 1%. I have offered a refund minus the shipping costs already BUT I have requested proof of death via photos to be emailed to me prior to refund given. Buyer doesn't sound too happy the refund is not 100%. And the buyer isn't happy i asked the photos to be in a measuring cup (how I measure roaches for count) to show all are dead, not half or a third. A hundred roaches looks like a lot spread out. 500 could be piled and you wouldn't know how many it was in a good photo. But 9oz of roaches is what i sent.

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I just feel like from an ethical perspective, the buyer has an obligation as the owner of that animal to ensure that he/she is available upon arrival of the package. When I had my snake delivered, I tracked it directly online from doorstep to doorstep. It's a live animal and its part of responsible pet ownership to ensure the animal arrives safely and in good health. The owner should of been on the lookout since they knew it was coming that day, don't you think?

You shipped the product as agreed, in the manner agreed, in the time frame agreed - how and why are you responsible if they recipient didn't keep an eye out for the package or the shipper mishandled the delivery?

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I agree....

I had boas shipped to me three winters ago. UPS put them in the snow on my porch and left without a knock. I had over a grand in boas in that box. I had my eye out for it. But that is me.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I personally feel my liability is less than 1%. I have offered a refund minus the shipping costs already BUT I have requested proof of death via photos to be emailed to me prior to refund given. Buyer doesn't sound too happy the refund is not 100%. And the buyer isn't happy i asked the photos to be in a measuring cup (how I measure roaches for count) to show all are dead, not half or a third. A hundred roaches looks like a lot spread out. 500 could be piled and you wouldn't know how many it was in a good photo. But 9oz of roaches is what i sent.

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I agree with you. And if they are all dead, they buyer should be able to easily prove that. Does the buyer think its your fault? What do they think? Just curious...

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I have been selling some dubia roaches here and there. I recently had an order and the seller paid for overnight shipping. I told him that the order could not ship before the weekend but I would do my best to ship on Monday. I admit, I did not follow up and tell the buyer the item was shipped however I did ship on Monday as I said I would. I personally could go either way on this dispute hence the public posting for opinion. Anyway, the item was shipped and US postal puts the box between his doors. Either there was no knock or he did not hear one. The box sat in the heat and all the roaches died. In your opinion, who is liable for the mistake? If both parties are liable in what amounts?

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I agree....

I had boas shipped to me three winters ago. UPS put them in the snow on my porch and left without a knock. I had over a grand in boas in that box. I had my eye out for it. But that is me.

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yup - absolutely!!!!;)

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I agree with you. And if they are all dead, they buyer should be able to easily prove that. Does the buyer think its your fault? What do they think? Just curious...

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the buyer feels it was my obligation to contact "him" and confirm they were sent as I said I would. Since this was not done, the buyer was not waiting for the arrival. The box was left in the heat and the insects died. The buyer has not said that it is all my fault but they haven't accepted any on themselves either.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I personally feel my liability is less than 1%. I have offered a refund minus the shipping costs already BUT I have requested proof of death via photos to be emailed to me prior to refund given. Buyer doesn't sound too happy the refund is not 100%. And the buyer isn't happy i asked the photos to be in a measuring cup (how I measure roaches for count) to show all are dead, not half or a third. A hundred roaches looks like a lot spread out. 500 could be piled and you wouldn't know how many it was in a good photo. But 9oz of roaches is what i sent.

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I personally check my email a ridiculous amount of times a day, and would have gotten the tracking number (assuming it sent to his email) and knew it was coming, but not everyone is like that. Refund minus shipping is perfectly acceptable, as is requesting proof of death. I wouldn't say it was majority your fault, as the fault lies on you for not letting him know it shipped, and for him for not being on the lookout, or contacting you if it shipped. You did say you'd try your best to ship it.

Any live shipping guarantee requires proof of death of the animal. I personally probably wouldn't have kept the roaches if they were dead, and maybe he didn't either so you may not get a photo. In good faith, if anything, just refund the cost of the roaches and not shipping. You'll probably lose his business though.

Like I said, the liability may be split, but the potential for business loss/gain is all up to you. A small hit now, may see a increase in business in the near future, or it may do nothing.

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Originally Posted by ScubaRyan

If you value the business of selling them, it might be best to chalk it up as a loss and send more, free of charge. Good customer service can only help spread the word (if that's what you would like), but he may just bad mouth you if all you do is request a refund for the dead roaches minus shipping as you did ship it.

If somebody personally said they'd *try their best* to ship it on Monday for a Tuesday delivery, i wouldn't be waiting around unless I got confirmation that the person was indeed sending/sent the package.

Who knows, the loss of some roaches could mean more business if he talks to his friends and gives them your info. If it's expensive to ship them, you could ask for just shipping costs and you would send what he ordered that died + some just to show you value their business. You never specified on the amount of roaches/cost, but if you're trying to expand the business/side job, whatever you want to call it, 1 bad experience can turn away several potential buyers. Remember, its not the truth, but how it's spun!

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problem with all of this is.....right or wrong, I am me. I have a teenage daughter who does stuff that logically I should be upset beyond rage. It doesn't stop her from finding a new way the very next day to do it all over again. I am to a point, yep she should be liable but mistakes do happen. I will have more bugs next month I guess. I am guessing that unless I tell the buyer thank you, give a full refund and probably apologize for everything, somehow I will be the bad guy. I have learned this is possible from a teenage girl who can lose a cell phone, call to have it replaced and then tell me that it is my fault she can not use a work phone to text message her friends with. Or wreck a car and tell me how neglected she is because she doesn't have transportation while it is being fixed.

Now where's that deep sigh icon at when you need it?:please:

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

the buyer feels it was my obligation to contact "him" and confirm they were sent as I said I would. Since this was not done, the buyer was not waiting for the arrival. The box was left in the heat and the insects died. The buyer has not said that it is all my fault but they haven't accepted any on themselves either.

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Well...ok, that's makes a little more sense then. That may explain why the buyer wasn't expecting it. I try to think about what would personally make me comfortable. When I bought my snake, which I love dearly, the breeder and i had worked out all of the details and she was overly clear about when she was shipping it and gave me all the tracking info. As part of our written agreement, I had to confirm that I would be available for the delivery and I had to notify her immediately upon arrival of the shipment.

It's begs to wonder then, if the buyer understood that the high temperatures had the ability to destroy the shipment. If the buyer didn't know the product was coming because they were relying entirely on a confirmation from you, and they didn't understand the relative risk of the mis-timing of the shipment....kinda changes things a little bit. I do think your offer to replace the roaches, and they pay for shipping is totally fair though. I still don't see where a 100% refund is in order. You are being completely fair in my view, still.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I am guessing that unless I tell the buyer thank you, give a full refund and probably apologize for everything, somehow I will be the bad guy.

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You're probably 100% correct! Just like the way people get upgrades for free by complaining over nothing; hey it works, so why not, right?!

You already took the loss of the roaches, just refund him the cost of the roaches so technically you don't lose any money! How much was the shipping if you don't mind me asking? If it's a couple dollars, he'll get over it. He took the risk of having roaches shipped to a hot climate, there's risk in it and the chance for something being dead after sitting at a door all day is pretty obvious!

Well in all honesty, you probably should have informed him that you actually shipped. Though when you didn't he should have contacted you.

I would still say the fault lies mostly with him. However, if I was in the situation I'd offer him a partial refund. He should have been expecting them and should have been checking. You should have told him they were shipped just to verify.

So if I was you I'd offer him 50% back of his purchase price - I think that would be a fair compromise. That's what I'd offer as a seller, and I'd think it fair as a buyer.

I want to take a moment and give props to all in this post...

this is a true discussion....:gj::gj::gj:

very respectful and honest opinions and I appreciate them all...thank you to each of you.

Right now I have provided an email for the buyer to send the requested photos to. I have decided that in my good conscience if the buyer sends suitable photos I will give a 100% refund because I see it like this....


I am basically eating $240 worth of roaches, another $22 isn't gonna make me starve. Then if the buyer has anything negative to say I can't imagine there is anyway I can feel bad about the situation. In the end, that was the point of this post. Not legal jargon, or even business ethics.....personal ethics. Giving what we all feel is truly fair. This might not have been fair to me. I think that would be the buyer's responsibility and ethics to find for themselves about how they should be treating me. This is what I feel I can do to help out a fellow hobbyist I am viewing as made a mistake. I hope the buyer learns from it and maybe is thankful and will pass the karma along.

thank you and take care all.

I think you're doing what's best for your business. I am not one to just sit around and wait on others. I would have hounded you for a shipping date. If I didn't hear from you Friday afternoon, I would have emailed (or called) you and asked what was up.

Thanks again for my order last week. Maybe I'm biased, but I only joined FC for the BOI (initially) and have learned a lot about how this business works. Sorry I didn't get my word in earlier.

Pictures are now received. Yes they are very dead and yes they fried in the sun.

I offered a full refund or full replacement, buyers choice.

immediate refund or replacement shipped Monday for Tuesday delivery

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

Pictures are now received. Yes they are very dead and yes they fried in the sun.

I offered a full refund or full replacement, buyers choice.

immediate refund or replacement shipped Monday for Tuesday delivery

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Good for you. That will get you VERY far in this business. It isn't how you deal with things when they go right, its how you deal with them when they go wrong. :gj:

Yeah the company I got my roaches from a while back is awesome. The first time I ordered 1k all were alive, the second time, maybe 200-300 died, no big deal though, they do a couple 100 over count to be safe. I e-mailed just to let them know, and they gave me a full 1k roaches back a couple days later. I am in Alaska and I thought that was totally cool of them.

Not knowing the exact communication between the buyer and seller, here is my opinion:

If the seller did not offer a solid ship date, and didn't tell the buyer when they shipped, I think the seller eats the blame and cost to replace the animals.

Even if this wasn't a live creature, any other perishable item like a frozen specimen, food items, or even volatile chemicals that need to stay a certain temperature... it's not good business to ship without notifying the customer when done, and would fall into the sellers field of responsibility, not the buyers to ask "Did they ship today?" "No?" "How about tomorrow?"

I congratulate the seller for doing the right thing and offering a full refund or replacement.

I replaced order 100% and covered over night shipping once again
Buyer offered to pay for shipping but I declined.

I am out of roaches for the time being. Time will tell if buyer will be a repeat customer but that is how the experience went. Thanks to everyone for their input

Personally I believe that a seller is ALWAYS responsible for giving notification of the moment of shipment of live animals. 99.9% of purchases where an item is being shipped to me, I get an email notification, in this day and age it's just expected.

It's a minor mistake and 9 times out of 10 the buyer would probably have been on the lookout for a package or contacted you to see if the item shipped. That 10th time, the buyer would be waiting looking for an email notification of shipment (which was never recieved).

I would chalk it up as a loss personally and give a full refund. Plus, it will give you good guy points and earn you business in the future. Think of it as just a bit of PR expenditures.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I would chalk it up as a loss personally and give a full refund. Plus, it will give you good guy points and earn you business in the future. Think of it as just a bit of PR expenditures.

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Check the thread directly above yours ;)