spider x spider

whats known about the lethality of breeding spider to a spider? iv seen people say that you shouldnt because of possible death but no one seems to really know. has anyone attempted to breed them or has everyone shied away from it because they herd it could be bad?:confused:

As there is no super form to date, most find it not worth the risk but I never heard from anyone that has done it!

Everyone I know doesn't do it cause there is no super to made from that. You would just get spiders and normals and you can get those by breeding a spider to a normal but with another morph atleast you get a double morph out of it. SO, it's not worth it unless for some reason that's all you have.

well what about if you have a spider het something. wouldnt it be better to breed two spider het "what ever" to each other?
and this was more about why would it kill the young? if you can breed every other morph to its self why not this one? what make these so different?

Use the search feature, youll find quite a few threads about this

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Originally Posted by Steveoo

if you can breed every other morph to its self why not this one? what make these so different?

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People have bred Bumblebee to killerbee I believe.
It's like pastels, breeding a pastel to another morph generally pays more dividends than making more pastels, normals and maybe a super.

On one thread a few weeks ago someone had stated he has spider x spider eggs in the incubator awaiting to hatch in 3 weeks. I really hope he posts a thread soon enough, I'm wondering what the outcome is.

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and this was more about why would it kill the young? If you can breed every other morph to its self why not this one? What make these so different?

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Short answer: I don't know.

Long answer: In horses, there is a type of colour pattern gene, a form of Overo, that in the homozygous form is lethal. Why would a simple colour pattern kill the offspring? Because the genes that make that particular patterning also control the development of the lining of the intestines, and in the homozygous form the intestine lining doesn't develop the ability to absorb nutrients, meaning the foal will literally starve and die shortly after being born. Heterozygous Overos are beautiful animals. Homozygous Overos all die.

No other horse pattern gene is known to cause such inevitably fatal consequences. I know many folk who test their horses for the Overo gene (since it isn't always blatantly expressed, also there are other Overo patterns and Sabino patterns that can literally hide it) before breeding so they don't accidentally breed Overo to Overo.

Now let's look at Spiders. All Spiders "wobble" to some degree, from the ones who just tilt their head a little when rotated onto their back to total trainwreck Spiders who look like they're having a seizure 24/7. Since there seems to be no direct connection to a Spider's parent's wobble severity and it is case-by-case, I am 100% convinced based on what little I know that it is some form of dysfunction in the nervous system and directly tied to the Spider patterning. Heterozygously, you get a beautiful snake.

Homozygously, it might mean the nervous system fails completely. When I first considered adding a Spider to my collection (she is still at the breeder's right now) I spent months researching the wobble, and read in a few places that some breeders have bred Spider to Spider and found that an unusual number of eggs just fail. This leads me to consider that there may be something to this notion of it's lethality.

Also bear in mind that in some animals a "lethal" gene isn't actually going to kill them...merle in dogs is sometimes called "lethal white" which is a misnomer...a homozygous merle may be born with a visual or hearing deformity (such as "star-shaped" pupils) or impairment...they may be born deaf...they may be both blind AND deaf...or some are sadly born WITHOUT EYES AT ALL...but unless euthanized, they can live and even thrive if given a chance. Still, many (self included) consider it unethical to breed merle to merle...why risk such heinous birth defects?

Or tl;dr answer: I still don't know. :)

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Originally Posted by Kyle@theHeathertoft

I spent months researching the wobble, and read in a few places that some breeders have bred Spider to Spider and found that an unusual number of eggs just fail.

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where did you find this information? I tired to find info like this and didn't find crap.

ok that makes some sense. for the most part all of the posts iv seen on any spider to spider has just been people fight weather they think its lethal or not. but Kyle@theHeathertoft makes a point and adds some reasons behind it. thank you very much

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Originally Posted by Steveoo

ok that makes some sense. for the most part all of the posts iv seen on any spider to spider has just been people fight weather they think its lethal or not. but Kyle@theHeathertoft makes a point and adds some reasons behind it. thank you very much

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Y'are most welcome. :D

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where did you find this information? I tired to find info like this and didn't find crap.

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Oh my god, it's not like a wrote a college thesis about it. :rofl: I did my research, decided that I am not going to be intimidated by the wobble because the pattern is beautiful and frankly so long as the animal has quality of life I don't CARE if they flail around a little...and left it at that. I've since had to get a new computer, which means all my bookmarks are lodged in my ancient Behemoth computer, and moreover I can't guarantee I actually saved them in the first place. That and nothing can be done about face-to-face discussions with breeders at expos. Heck if I know...took me long enough to find what I found, now it's someone else's turn to look. :P

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Originally Posted by Kyle@theHeathertoft

Oh my god, it's not like a wrote a college thesis about it. :rofl: I did my research, decided that I am not going to be intimidated by the wobble because the pattern is beautiful and frankly so long as the animal has quality of life I don't CARE if they flail around a little...and left it at that. I've since had to get a new computer, which means all my bookmarks are lodged in my ancient Behemoth computer, and moreover I can't guarantee I actually saved them in the first place. That and nothing can be done about face-to-face discussions with breeders at expos. Heck if I know...took me long enough to find what I found, now it's someone else's turn to look. :P

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Well thing is I found nothing online, nothing even about someone claiming to have done a spider to spider breeding with results and all the breeders I talked to at the expos eigher said it was lethal just because thats what everyone else says or say no one knows.

your the first person I've seen to claim to know something, so I'm trying to learn.

It literally took me months and it involved a lot of hearesay and crap. To my knowledge it's never been officially tested or anything, either.

ok well than im going to breed to spiders het axanthic this up coming breeding season and see what happens if nothing else ill waist one clutch of eggs. im not making my living from it so i dont mind =]

Just jumping on the bandwagon. If you breed spider x spider, then you only have a chance of getting spiders out of the clutch (as opposed to spider-pastel (bees), spider-cinny's, spinner's, etc). Also, as already mentioned, further inbreeding of the spider gene, besides being potentially "fatal", may increase the likelihood of the wobbles. That's why most breeders breed spiders to other co-doms, recessives, etc. BTW, the Axanthic spider IS killer!

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BTW, the Axanthic spider IS killer!

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See I just don't know what I should try to breed my Spider to when she's big enough...my Mojave? My Cinny? My Pastel? Maybe toss in all three and let it be a suprise? :D I do love the Spider patterning, and the wobble doesn't intimidate me. ;)

now see i have a 2 normal het axanthic females one spider het axanthic and one normal male axanthic and one female het axanthic. but wouldnt you think my chances of getting the axanthic spider would be highest breeding spider to spider?

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Originally Posted by brian abrams

Just jumping on the bandwagon. If you breed spider x spider, then you only have a chance of getting spiders out of the clutch (as opposed to spider-pastel (bees), spider-cinny's, spinner's, etc). Also, as already mentioned, further inbreeding of the spider gene, besides being potentially "fatal", may increase the likelihood of the wobbles. That's why most breeders breed spiders to other co-doms, recessives, etc. BTW, the Axanthic spider IS killer!

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rumors or just untrue

there is not one speck of evidence that spiderxspider will have any effect on the wobble. tho there is that its random the degree of wobble they get.

breeders breed spiders to other codom recessives ect... aka other morphs because thats what we do in the designer ball python world, I could say the same thing for every other morph out there. they don't do plain spiderxspider because there appears to be no super form, so there is nothing to gain.

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Originally Posted by Steveoo

now see i have a 2 normal het axanthic females one spider het axanthic and one normal male axanthic and one female het axanthic. but wouldnt you think my chances of getting the axanthic spider would be highest breeding spider to spider?

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I only count one spider?

but your answer is we can't answer that for reasons above, honestly if what your shooting for is axanthic spider, breed a spider het to an axanthic, that gives you a 25% chance for spider axanthic. 12.5% if you breed a spider het to a het. keeps it simple.

tho if you do end up with some sort of spiderxspider pairing, please post as much detailed info as possible.

Never met TSK in person and can't really say I know them but they seem genuinely concerned with adding the ball python knowledge base so thinking it will be ok to share results from a few e-mails with Colette on this subject over the years.

In 2007 they produced 8 eggs from spider X spider and the two smallest eggs didn't hatch. Colette didn't mention the spider to normal ratio of the six hatchlings from 2007 but did say all the spiders where female so haven't bred yet.

In 2008 they produced 6 good eggs and one slug from spider X spider and hatched 1.4 spiders and a normal. The male wasn't bred yet for this year.

So, no breedings yet to test the possible homozygous spiders. Out of 15 eggs 3 didn't hatch but not sure if the slug should be counted or not. Did the other two eggs not hatch because they where small or where the small and didn't hatch because they where homozygous spiders?

NERD reported years ago that "enough" breedings had been done to prove that there wasn't a different looking homozygous spider but didn't quantify.

To believe you can get a homozygous spider from a spider X spider pairing you have to assume:

A) It's a grand conspiracy by a handful of ball python breeders to deny the existence of their homozygous spiders.

or

B) None have ever been produced from any of the spider x spider pairings (just a matter of bad luck)

or

C) There are homozygous spiders that were produced but have never been bred so no one knows they are homozygous spiders.

Ok this is just a question to throw out there and I am by no means a geneticist. But could it be that the homozygous form has no different look at all it just caries both the spider alleles? or traits so that when bred back to a normal would still produce all spiders? Let say normal spider is Sa so homo form would be SS and then the punnett would work out as all having one normal carrier and 1 spider carrier as the homo form would no longer have a normal carrier?

I guess it is possible! We would need someone to breed spider x spider and then breed several of the babies to normals to see what happens! I would assume at least one of the big breeders have tried with no luck!

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Originally Posted by Kyle@theHeathertoft

I spent months researching the wobble, and read in a few places that some breeders have bred Spider to Spider and found that an unusual number of eggs just fail.

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It literally took me months and it involved a lot of hearesay and crap. To my knowledge it's never been officially tested or anything, either.

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These two statements seem conflicting to me. :confused:

I've also never heard any breeder state that they found an unusual number of eggs failing from spider to spider. Instead, I've heard them say that they get spiders and normals from that breeding, but not visual supers.

It's been theorized many times here that it may be a lethal gene and those that are supers simply don't even survive enough to become eggs.

I'm in the camp that there is no super form of the spider - lethal or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by seeya205

I guess it is possible! We would need someone to breed spider x spider and then breed several of the babies to normals to see what happens! I would assume at least one of the big breeders have tried with no luck!

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I'm sure that if there was a super - Kevin McCurley (who imported the first spider, from whom all spiders are descended) bred enough spider to spider in the early days to figure out pretty quickly that there is no super.

On top of that, there have been multitudes of people that have come before some of you who also said "someone should breed spider to spider and see".

In other words, more than enough breeders over MANY years have tried the breeding. It's not a new concept. To date - no one has produced a super spider.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

On top of that, there have been multitudes of people that have come before some of you who also said "someone should breed spider to spider and see".

In other words, more than enough breeders over MANY years have tried the breeding. It's not a new concept. To date - no one has produced a super spider.

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Exactly, I have only been on this forum for a year and change, and this topic has been played out a hundred times.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm sure that if there was a super - Kevin McCurley (who imported the first spider, from whom all spiders are descended) bred enough spider to spider in the early days to figure out pretty quickly that there is no super.

On top of that, there have been multitudes of people that have come before some of you who also said "someone should breed spider to spider and see".

In other words, more than enough breeders over MANY years have tried the breeding. It's not a new concept. To date - no one has produced a super spider.

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I think its pretty obvious there is no super spider, but my question is, is it lethal or is it a more complicated gene than make it only exist in the het form. someonewho had access to a ultrasound could see if eggs start or not.

I just think it would be nice to have an answer to the question what do i get when I bred spider x spider. is it 33% normal 66% spider, 50/50, 75/25?

i found this to be helpful
http://www.ballpython.ca/genetics.html

well this tread was not started to ask the question of a supper form of a spider and not even if there was a homozygous that just looked like a normal spider but the Question was is it going to be worth breeding to spiders or is it going to kill off to many of the young?
i want to breed
spider het axanthic x spider het axanthic
to hopefully end up with more axanthic spiders. i know i can breed a normal het to a spider het and possible end up with one but i wanted to up my chances by having both parents be spider.
THATS WHAT THIS POST STARTED AS. so this really isnt just an other post about supper spider or not. see?

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Originally Posted by Steveoo

well this tread was not started to ask the question of a supper form of a spider and not even if there was a homozygous that just looked like a normal spider but the Question was is it going to be worth breeding to spiders or is it going to kill off to many of the young?
i want to breed
spider het axanthic x spider het axanthic
to hopefully end up with more axanthic spiders. i know i can breed a normal het to a spider het and possible end up with one but i wanted to up my chances by having both parents be spider.
THATS WHAT THIS POST STARTED AS. so this really isnt just an other post about supper spider or not. see?

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yeah we see but this is what happens with a spider x spider question :rofl: and the real answer is going to be..... breed them and see how it goes. i say they will be fine, IMO, because you have people breeding "spider based" balls, like bees and such, all the time and they seem to be doing ok. IMO.

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Originally Posted by Steveoo

well this tread was not started to ask the question of a supper form of a spider and not even if there was a homozygous that just looked like a normal spider but the Question was is it going to be worth breeding to spiders or is it going to kill off to many of the young?
i want to breed
spider het axanthic x spider het axanthic
to hopefully end up with more axanthic spiders. i know i can breed a normal het to a spider het and possible end up with one but i wanted to up my chances by having both parents be spider.
THATS WHAT THIS POST STARTED AS. so this really isnt just an other post about supper spider or not. see?

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well your answer is then, no one can answer right now that but god.

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Originally Posted by Steveoo

well this tread was not started to ask the question of a supper form of a spider and not even if there was a homozygous that just looked like a normal spider but the Question was is it going to be worth breeding to spiders or is it going to kill off to many of the young? i want to breed
spider het axanthic x spider het axanthic
to hopefully end up with more axanthic spiders. i know i can breed a normal het to a spider het and possible end up with one but i wanted to up my chances by having both parents be spider.
THATS WHAT THIS POST STARTED AS. so this really isnt just an other post about supper spider or not. see?

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I am personally unaware of any reports of offspring from spider to spider breedings having failure to thrive.

I believe that they hatch and thrive at the same rate as any other breeding.

haha yeah iv read lots of people seeming to not have much trouble. but that last post of mine was just more aimed at the person complaining about this thread, just because a side topic was brought up dosent make this the same as all the others just asking the question of the supper form or what ever. =]