Business ethics question

OK... Situation goes as follows:

You buy a proven breeder morph female.
The previous owner and buyer are unaware of the female being gravid.
A month after receiving the animal, she lays an average sized clutch.

What do you do?

Happened to me last year, the guy called me and offered me a male black pastel from the clutch that included 2.1 black pastels and 1.0 normal after the clutch hatched.
I was very happy with his offer.
The female only bred a couple of times and I sold her, my loss.

She's yours. What she produces is yours. What you do with those babies is yours to decide. If no provisions were made such a scenario ensue, then the deal was finished when payment was accepted.

I would say that if neither is aware that the snake is gravid, then the buyer has all claims to offspring. However, I also think it would also be a nice gesture to at least notify the seller that the snake was gravid and at least offer some of the offspring back. You never know, the seller may return the favor when you get ready to purchase another snake and come up a few dollars short. Just my opinion...

I think the same. Rightfully the buyer owns the female.. and that includes any eggs inside her, her follicles for future eggs, and the poop in her gut.

But if it happened to me, I'd probably offer something back to the seller, to make it feel more fair to ME. But I wouldn't think I HAD to. Keeping the whole clutch should be well within the rights of the buyer.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

and the poop in her gut.

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Hehe, that made me laugh. If the seller is making any demands, maybe you can send him some of that...

You paid for her, she's yours. So are all the offspring she produces, what you decide to do with them is up to you. End of story.

The seller has absolutely no rights to the offspring whatsoever.

Thats my opinion...

But its always nice to be nice.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

She's yours. What she produces is yours. What you do with those babies is yours to decide. If no provisions were made such a scenario ensue, then the deal was finished when payment was accepted.

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x2 this is my opinion, Its not like you buy a car from someone, trade it in on a new one and the guy you bought the old car from wants to drive your new car around

Boy, I'd be kicking myself so hard if I unknowingly sold a gravid female!

I agree though, once she is in the buyers hands, she and all her offspring are technically the buyers.

If I were the buyer, I would probably tell the seller what had happened and offer the seller some of the clutch or at least some info about what happened and an update. This could also make the relationship better between you and the seller, assuming the seller seems rather nice.

100% agreed, anything the female produces after she's been purchased belongs to the buyer.
The seller knew that they had put the female with males, so they had to know there was a chance the female was gravid.

I had a hard time getting my pieds and het pieds to breed--tried 2 years with no luck. I decided to sell one of my het pied females. I sold it to a nice lady--she called me like 6 weeks later--Hey--that het pied you said was not gravid laid eggs!!--She had 4 or 5 eggs and ended up with a very pied--as a seller--I was THRILLED for my customer--I thought the whole thing was funny and super ironic-the one I decide to sell has eggs and produces a pied for my customer---she was a really nice lady and I was happy for her. Seller has 0% right to anything at all.

I don't agree with most responses here. Yes the transaction is yours, but it's really about the 'intent' and 'spirit' of the transaction. Did the seller 'intend' on giving you an animal that was gravid? Would the seller have behaved diffrently had they known this information beforehand, yada, yada, yada...

If you go to the bank and cash a check, and the teller gives you too much money, that in and of itself, doesn't allow you to keep it. It would not be the bank's actual intent, and to knowingly take the money and keep it doesn't alleviate you from the fact that you have retained money improperly. - Albiet most would, and banks have tried to collect in these situations, and often win in court. I know this is probably a bad example because of the regulations imposed on banks, violation of public trust and so on, the point is:

I realize that neither of you knew, and you have every right to keep the clutch and move on...I just wanted to share a differing view point. Congrats though:gj:

just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I don't agree with most responses here. Yes the transaction is yours, but it's really about the 'intent' and 'spirit' of the transaction. Did the seller 'intend' on giving you an animal that was gravid? Would the seller have behaved diffrently had they known this information beforehand, yada, yada, yada...

If you go to the bank and cash a check, and the teller gives you too much money, that in and of itself, doesn't allow you to keep it. It would not be the bank's actual intent, and to knowingly take the money and keep it doesn't alleviate you from the fact that you have retained money improperly. - Albiet most would, and banks have tried to collect in these situations, and often win in court. I know this is probably a bad example because of the regulations imposed on banks, violation of public trust and so on, the point is:

I realize that neither of you knew, and you have every right to keep the clutch and move on...I just wanted to share a differing view point. Congrats though:gj:

just my 2 cents

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that not the same at all, the seller didnt make a mistake and send and extra snake or mean to send a pastel and end up sending a banana. its more like they walked into the bank cashed a check and the teller gave them a misprinted bill thats worth 5 times the face value. do you have to give that bill back too? same thing goes if you sell your house and the buyer remodels and finds an original van gogh stashed between the walls its theirs to keep.

if this happened to me i would offer the seller some of the offspring but i wouldnt feel at all like i had to

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

If you go to the bank and cash a check, and the teller gives you too much money, that in and of itself, doesn't allow you to keep it. It would not be the bank's actual intent, and to knowingly take the money and keep it doesn't alleviate you from the fact that you have retained money improperly. - Albiet most would, and banks have tried to collect in these situations, and often win in court. I know this is probably a bad example because of the regulations imposed on banks, violation of public trust and so on, the point is:

I realize that neither of you knew, and you have every right to keep the clutch and move on...I just wanted to share a differing view point. Congrats though:gj:

just my 2 cents

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Thats a totally different scenario thats comparative to theft, the seller knows if he or she has put a male in with the female or not, and then decides to sell the female,

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Muffin's

I don't agree with most responses here. Yes the transaction is yours, but it's really about the 'intent' and 'spirit' of the transaction. Did the seller 'intend' on giving you an animal that was gravid? Would the seller have behaved diffrently had they known this information beforehand, yada, yada, yada...

If you go to the bank and cash a check, and the teller gives you too much money, that in and of itself, doesn't allow you to keep it. It would not be the bank's actual intent, and to knowingly take the money and keep it doesn't alleviate you from the fact that you have retained money improperly. - Albiet most would, and banks have tried to collect in these situations, and often win in court. I know this is probably a bad example because of the regulations imposed on banks, violation of public trust and so on, the point is:

I realize that neither of you knew, and you have every right to keep the clutch and move on...I just wanted to share a differing view point. Congrats though:gj:

just my 2 cents

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Your scenario does not apply at all. When you go into a bank to cash a check you are not buying or selling anything. But lets assume the same person buys a soda with a 10 and gets 18 dollars and change back. Clearly the teller thinks that the buyer paid with a 20. In this case the buyer has at least a moral obligation to alert the clerk to the error. Again this is not whats going on here. The seller and buyer agreed on a price for a female proven breeder. The seller presumably knew the snake might be gravid as the seller must have introduced the snake to a male. My family has always been in the horse racing business. Let me tell you that when you sell a horse that you think is worth one thing and it turns out to be worth a lot lot more, you get nothing but a good reputation. The seller knew the risks of selling, gambled and lost. The buyer got a good deal. Thats it.

Buyer definitely has claims. It's the seller's responsibility to know if they were trying to breed her and she had a sucessful lock ect ect. If they sell her when pregnant it's their loss and the buyers keeps all babies produced.

Of course it is the buyer who owns the snake. But if the seller happened to be a pleasant person to deal with, or is a friend, or the buyer is just feeling nice then why not let the seller have a choice of one of the babies?

Now if I had bought from a very nice seller, or someone I knew, I would offer them a baby or two.

On the flip side, if the seller was a pain to deal with or not a very nice person, I would simply never mention it.

:) I guess this means if you are selling gravid females to me you should be nice! lol!!


But no, the seller is not legally entitled to any of the babies.

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Same thing goes if you sell your house and the buyer remodels and finds an original van gogh stashed between the walls its theirs to keep.

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Actually , something very similar to this happend in the States a few years back, except it was cash instead of a Van Gogh.
The original homeowner found out about it because the new home owner was bragging about finding money in the walls during a reno. Old homeowner confronted new homeowner and tried to work something out (i.e. 50/50)
New homeowner told old homeowner to suck an egg.
Old homeowner took new homeowner to court and....
Got 100%.
Same deal here; as the new owner, be nice. Karma can be cruel, and she will come for you.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Actually , something very similar to this happend in the States a few years back, except it was cash instead of a Van Gogh.
The original homeowner found out about it because the new home owner was bragging about finding money in the walls during a reno. Old homeowner confronted new homeowner and tried to work something out (i.e. 50/50)
New homeowner told old homeowner to suck an egg.
Old homeowner took new homeowner to court and....
Got 100%.
Same deal here; as the new owner, be nice. Karma can be cruel, and she will come for you.

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Wow that is a pretty amazing story. Though it is kind of strange that the old home owner would get to keep 100%. Doesn't really make sense since it isn't their property. Though the new home owner is at fault for openly bragging about what they had found..

Thanks to everyone who have voted and posted so far! And thanks to those who do in the future.

The poll confirms my belief and the post also match my thoughts about "it's nice to be nice."

Well, to give a little more detail, I bought a ghost breeder female that was breed to 2 males, a butter het ghost and a mojave granite. I already bought the butter het ghost so it really only gained me a year (assuming the female would have produced). A mojave granite het ghost would be nice too!

My plans...
I have already notified the buyer and she is kicking herself, but being nothing but cordiale. Once the eggs hatch, what I chose to do will depend what is produced. I doubt she wants a bunch of 100% het ghost males males if that is produced. If 1 or 2 butter ghosts are produced I would offer to do a trade for something that I didn't have but is a good deal for her. If I hit awesome odds, I will just send something. Seems fair to me...

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My plans...
I have already notified the buyer and she is kicking herself, but being nothing but cordiale. Once the eggs hatch, what I chose to do will depend what is produced. I doubt she wants a bunch of 100% het ghost males males if that is produced. If 1 or 2 butter ghosts are produced I would offer to do a trade for something that I didn't have but is a good deal for her. If I hit awesome odds, I will just send something. Seems fair to me...

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Depending on the pairing, I would do the same. If it was something like a black pastel/cinnamon/pastel/etc to a normal, I would just keep most of them, offer a baby or 2, and sell the rest depending on the pairing. But if it was something like Axanthic Spider x Het Axanthic, I would obviously notify the seller and offer up a trade/send back any axanthic spiders if any axanthic spiders popped out (Just using this as an example, I could have gone ALOT crazier)

One of my friends actually had this happen to them. She bought a proven het albino girl, and she laid 7 eggs 2 weeks later. 3 albinos and the rest hets. She offered to send back two of the albinos as a nice gesture, but the seller actually BOUGHT one of the albinos. She included 2 hets with the albino.

Like others have said; You bought her, shes yours, anything that comes out of her is yours. It's just a nice gesture to offer one of the offspring, although it is not needed at all.

I was recently talking to someone that had this happen to her. She mis-sexed a snake, thought it was a male. I saw them lock up and asked her about it, she said "Oh yeah, they're both males but they're always trying to lock up with each other!" Well she sold one that happened to be the female, the buyer got eggs and the lady just said "Oh well, my bad! Good for him though!" and that was it!

If it happened to me, I would be nice and probly offer the seller something, depending on how my transaction went. Congrats though!

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

that not the same at all, the seller didnt make a mistake and send and extra snake or mean to send a pastel and end up sending a banana. its more like they walked into the bank cashed a check and the teller gave them a misprinted bill thats worth 5 times the face value. do you have to give that bill back too? same thing goes if you sell your house and the buyer remodels and finds an original van gogh stashed between the walls its theirs to keep.

if this happened to me i would offer the seller some of the offspring but i wouldnt feel at all like i had to

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I should have thought of a better example - thanks!

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

Thats a totally different scenario thats comparative to theft, the seller knows if he or she has put a male in with the female or not, and then decides to sell the female,

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I didn't realize the seller knew...I guess if I'd thought about it, but I guess I didn't take into account the there was a 'known element of risk' that the female could have been gravid...changes the intent fore sure...

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Your scenario does not apply at all. When you go into a bank to cash a check you are not buying or selling anything. But lets assume the same person buys a soda with a 10 and gets 18 dollars and change back. Clearly the teller thinks that the buyer paid with a 20. In this case the buyer has at least a moral obligation to alert the clerk to the error. Again this is not whats going on here. The seller and buyer agreed on a price for a female proven breeder. The seller presumably knew the snake might be gravid as the seller must have introduced the snake to a male. My family has always been in the horse racing business. Let me tell you that when you sell a horse that you think is worth one thing and it turns out to be worth a lot lot more, you get nothing but a good reputation. The seller knew the risks of selling, gambled and lost. The buyer got a good deal. Thats it.

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you're right...mine didn't parallel the same way. I also didn't take into account that it would be the seller who would have known if he had attempted to breed the animal...good point

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Wow that is a pretty amazing story. Though it is kind of strange that the old home owner would get to keep 100%. Doesn't really make sense since it isn't their property. Though the new home owner is at fault for openly bragging about what they had found..

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that's usally how these things go, depending on the state and cirumstance...

This is exactly the reason that I have not sold a few of the extra females that I have yet. I often have females that are bred but don't start developing follicles until late in the season (some just starting to develop now for me). I have some decently high dollar stuff and it would kill me if I put all of the time into raising and feeding a female and it laid eggs right after I sold it to someone. The bottom line is that the seller took a chance selling her to you. If they wanted to be sure the snake was not going to lay they should have palpated her throughout the season or just not sold her until later when it was more definite that she was not gravid. Good to hear that the seller is not trying to demand anything from you. Good luck. I hope you get a few Butter ghosts. They are really nice snakes.

After taking three [Texas] law courses, I can tell you legally [in Texas], since there was no deception, the buyer is the legal owner of the offspring. It is up to the seller to know what he/she is selling and it's value. Legally speaking of course. I would say, that ethically, you can inform the seller of clutch, but there is no legal obligation to inform him/her, or give him/her any money or babies from the clutch.

I for one, however, would offer one or two babies from the clutch [depending on the size of the clutch and space restraints, etc] to the previous seller. Even if the seller tries to sue there is no case [at least in Texas].

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. The legal "advice" stated in this post is based on Texas law and precedents from Texas law cases and laws and precedents may be different where you, the reader, live.

Thanks MaverickGTR for providing legal insight for us Texas folks!

I am split on how a scenario of this nature should be treated. I believe that what the buyer purchased and any offspring should be the sole property of the buyer.

However, if this were to happen to me personally, my conscious would not allow me to keep quiet and I would notify the former owner and offer a piece of the pie.

Glad my tuition is helping someone lol

I would tell the seller that the female they sold me laid eggs and that after they hatch they can have a couple if they would like. That's just me. I'd feel terrible if I even tried to hide it for a minute after I found out.

I'm wondering, as I do from time to time, just how widespread this willingness to disclose a windfall really is.

Do you guys return wrongly given change?

Most of us are drivethru veterans. What happens when the mistake is IN your favor? Do you go back?

If you don't return the extra change and you don't go tell them they gave you 3 extra burgers, why?

Why be so all over the place about being public if you purchase a snake that you later find to be gravid?

Is it overwhelming altruism or is the real basis a tad closer to home, something that could happen to anyone of us who puts 2 snakes together?

Could it be, and I really don't mean to single out anyone or point any fingers or anything of that nature, but could it be, the reason that so many have said they, "could not" (of which I am HIGHLY skeptical when push comes to shove, again, just human nature not anyone in particular) keep what they had in fact legitimately purchased, be because if it happened to them, if they were out, had lost, did not benefit from, reap the harvest of, they would want something to sooth the feeling of missing out or loss that seeing someone else benefit by only being a well timed purchase but not having done any of the work to get the babies.

I wonder if deep down that doesn't have a lot to do with things.

For me, depending on who the seller was and how I felt about them, I could easily keep all the babies. I could also just as easily give them all away, but maybe not any to the seller. But all this "couldn't" keep them, well, it may be my lack, but "couldn't" isn't part of my equation on what to do in this scenario.

I would return extra change if I discover it before I completely leave, or it's a larger amount.
As for the extra burger, I keep that. They can't resell it, they would just have to throw it away anyhow, you know. Besides, they have shorted me so many times, I would consider it my due. lol

However, that's a completely different situation. The seller knew it was a female animal which is potentially capable of producing offspring every year. They KNEW that they paired her up. If they were not willing to wait to make sure that she wasn't gravid--absolutely sure--before they sold her, then of course they knew that they might be selling a gravid animal. I don't see this as any different from your buying a female that ISN'T gravid, and then breeding it and winding up with offspring just a few months later. In fact, maybe you had plans for that female, sold as being not gravid, and now they were interfered with because she turned out to be gravid. Now you can't pair her with YOUR male.

They sold a female that they had paired up with their male. They're giving you the result along with her, and they KNOW that. I wouldn't feel guilty over receiving the animal and getting offspring from it. Obviously they wanted to sell her...if they wanted her offspring, they wouldn't have sold her.

It's not ALL roses for the buyer. What if the buyer was planning to pair the female with a high-end animal, and instead it lays eggs sired by the seller's low-end animal? They've lost out on the potential from her for that season, and the clutch they do get is only a minor compensation for it.

So, to simply things--really, the animal and anything it produces belongs to the buyer, free and clear, without obligation, and certainly without guilt.

I could keep the babies if I didn't like the breeder. But it sounds to me like the op likes the breeder at least a little and I tried to post what I would do in the op's situation. If I liked the breeder I would feel obligated by my own upbringing and whatnot to inform the seller. And I would at least offer them a baby or two depending on if I have the room, time and money for raising a clutch til they are big enough to sell, I might even offer up the whole clutch. I also put myself in the breeder's shoes. What if I sold a female I had tried breeding, but figured that maybe it didn't take or something? What if there was a mix up and I sold the wrong female? I'd at least want to know that she did have a clutch even if I didn't get anything from it. I'm just one of those curious people that likes to know just for the sake of knowing.

I'd definitely tell the seller and split the clutch with them in picking teams fashion (as it seems to be the most fair way of doing things, from lending breeders to mutual investment).

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I would return extra change if I discover it before I completely leave, or it's a larger amount.
As for the extra burger, I keep that. They can't resell it, they would just have to throw it away anyhow, you know. Besides, they have shorted me so many times, I would consider it my due. lol

However, that's a completely different situation. The seller knew it was a female animal which is potentially capable of producing offspring every year. They KNEW that they paired her up. If they were not willing to wait to make sure that she wasn't gravid--absolutely sure--before they sold her, then of course they knew that they might be selling a gravid animal. I don't see this as any different from your buying a female that ISN'T gravid, and then breeding it and winding up with offspring just a few months later. In fact, maybe you had plans for that female, sold as being not gravid, and now they were interfered with because she turned out to be gravid. Now you can't pair her with YOUR male.

They sold a female that they had paired up with their male. They're giving you the result along with her, and they KNOW that. I wouldn't feel guilty over receiving the animal and getting offspring from it. Obviously they wanted to sell her...if they wanted her offspring, they wouldn't have sold her.

It's not ALL roses for the buyer. What if the buyer was planning to pair the female with a high-end animal, and instead it lays eggs sired by the seller's low-end animal? They've lost out on the potential from her for that season, and the clutch they do get is only a minor compensation for it.

So, to simply things--really, the animal and anything it produces belongs to the buyer, free and clear, without obligation, and certainly without guilt.

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This exactly.

I would happily inform the seller that the female gave a clutch, and let them know what hatches, and possibly a discount on any offspring they would purchase back, but "they" sold a female knowing all of the above. They knew the potential and sold it along with the female when she got to her new home.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

This exactly.

I would happily inform the seller that the female gave a clutch, and let them know what hatches, and possibly a discount on any offspring they would purchase back, but "they" sold a female knowing all of the above. They knew the potential and sold it along with the female when she got to her new home.

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Agreed

Under normal business law the buyer would keep the offspring. The buyer has no duty to inform the seller of the situation, and even if informed the seller has no rights to them.

It's no different than a guy who sells his family horse for $10,000 only to find out later that it is a rare breed and valued at over $1,000,000. He is at a loss for being ignorant of all the facts.

Buyer keeps the goods. It's the seller's duty to make sure the female that's being sold isn't gravid, especially if they don't want to end up kicking themselves when the female produces a clutch that's the prize morph they were attempting to create..

They all yours Steve :D To be honest, my opinion on this is that you should know if there is a chance of your snake being gravid and if you are willing to sell it rather than give her time to lay it's just too darn bad. I wouldn't offer to split the clutch or even give one baby up. If I sold a gravid female and was offered a baby I would refuse because those aren't my babies to take. The only exception I would make, would be with a friend.

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Originally Posted by maverickgtr

I could keep the babies if I didn't like the breeder. But it sounds to me like the op likes the breeder at least a little and I tried to post what I would do in the op's situation. If I liked the breeder I would feel obligated by my own upbringing and whatnot to inform the seller. And I would at least offer them a baby or two depending on if I have the room, time and money for raising a clutch til they are big enough to sell, I might even offer up the whole clutch.

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Now this REALLY gets to me, why would whether or not you 'like' the seller have anything at all to do with it? Do you have two different sets of moral codes? One for people you like and one for people you don't like?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Now this REALLY gets to me, why would whether or not you 'like' the seller have anything at all to do with it? Do you have two different sets of moral codes? One for people you like and one for people you don't like?

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I saw that door, sitting there all open and inviting like.

I just walked on by.

But now that you've kicked it down, I'm amazed at how little thought about what's right goes into the thought process of many and how much the determine their actions on how much they like or dislike someone.

Eh, nothing you or I say or write is going to make much difference.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I saw that door, sitting there all open and inviting like.

I just walked on by.

But now that you've kicked it down, I'm amazed at how little thought about what's right goes into the thought process of many and how much the determine their actions on how much they like or dislike someone.

Eh, nothing you or I say or write is going to make much difference.

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I suppose you are right, morality should be retained no matter how you view the other party. However since morality is relative and is defined by the individual, one's morals may actually be based on their views of other people. I mean look at the Nazi party, entirely moral in their minds to exterminate people because they didnt like them.

It was only a matter of time before Godwin's Law got involved here.

Dang it, how do I get these worms back in this can??? They're getting all over the place.

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Do you guys return wrongly given change?

Most of us are drivethru veterans. What happens when the mistake is IN your favor? Do you go back?

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Actually yes, I do.

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If you don't return the extra change and you don't go tell them they gave you 3 extra burgers, why?

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I return extra change, actually, and there was a day where they gave me extra food on an order. I was in a drive thru...found it before I left the parking lot...I went inside and showed them the receipt and pointed out that I got more than I paid for...and they smiled and told me it was their mistake, and to enjoy it because they can't touch it once it's left their hands and been placed in mine.

But they DID thank me for my honesty.

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In fact, maybe you had plans for that female, sold as being not gravid, and now they were interfered with because she turned out to be gravid. Now you can't pair her with YOUR male.

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This was actually what I thought of when I read the original post, since I kindof want to get a mature female to breed my big male to and would be VERY upset if I bought a female who then laid eggs. :P

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Now this REALLY gets to me, why would whether or not you 'like' the seller have anything at all to do with it? Do you have two different sets of moral codes? One for people you like and one for people you don't like?

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If someone hadn't already gone there, I was gonna. Sorry to say. XD

all i can say is i sold a i didnt know she was gravid BRB and the buyer was nice enough to call me and gave me some of the babys, so what goes around comes around, and one day it will happen to me and i will do the same as was done for me.
steve

In good business ethics if you sale a gravid animal its not the new owners responsibility to give the seller anything if you wanted a cut then why'd you sale a gravid animal that is just poor ethics.

lance

What you decide is ultimately your decision. I would at least notify the seller. I kinda agree with the, it's nice to offer them a baby from the clutch. If there is a really nice baby that you don't want, I'd offer it to the seller.
They may or may not accept it, and if it was something they'd like they might feel greatful and return the favor. :)
Congratulations on your little extra surprise.

I think the nice answer would be to offer the seller an animal or two.

But really, the seller sort fo HAD to be aware that she was possibly gravid, right? Either s/he sold her too quickly after s/he bought her or s/he was the one breeding her. I don't think there's any moral obligation to give the seller anything unless you just feel like being very very nice.

And really, the seller shouldn't be selling an animal that could be gravid without warning the buyer. Not everyone is ready for unexpected eggs!!