Another one for maternal incubation...

It's been a while since I posted updates on our snakes. My husband, the kids, and I have been on a debate on whether to try to breed our pastel and spider. I was all against it, everybody else was for it - so, I lost the vote. Again.

My husband's friends have been egging him on because of the kind of morphs we have. So, they put the two together every other week starting last December. By January, nothing was happening and the spider (who is usually a really good eater) stopped eating, so I put a stop to the whole operation.

Curly, the pastel, never did show signs of ovulation or anything, so we figured she was too young - she was only 1500g at 3 years old last Christmas. Everything went back to normal until about 5 weeks ago when she went through a shed. Curly stopped eating and I was getting antsy after weeks and weeks of her refusing food.

Well, last Wednesday, we tried to feed her again and got a surprise - she had eggs! She tried to bite my husband, so we left her alone trying to figure out what to do next. Since we don't plan to do any other breeding besides this one, we've decided to do maternal incubation before we tried to breed them last year. I read up a lot on it from this site and on some books and it felt like that's the route for us.

Today is Friday - 2 days into the thing - and we are ready to be co-parents. We think. We prepared a plastic shoebox with a hole for her to get in and out of, and put the set-up into a sterilite container to get the humidity better controlled. It's running steady at 80% with temperature in the shoebox flunctuating between 86 and 87F and temperature outside the shoebox around 80F. So, we attempted the move. Man, she's gone from docile kids' pet python to nightmare momma overnight! We had to do the towel maneuver!

While we were moving her, we were able to see the eggs and there are 5 of them - candled nice and pretty. And since we were able to get her uncoiled from her eggs for a little bit, we figured to try to feed her. And she ate! Yep, she did. So then we put her in the shoebox and she went and curled right around her eggs.

It's a great relief... for now. But, I'm still biting my nails - I was half ready to beg Mike C for his incubator. But now that she fed, I think we're gonna be okay. I have to say, I wasn't liking this idea of breeding, but now, I'm kinda excited! This is going to be a very long summer.

I know you're gonna want pics. So here goes:

Eggs:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...curly_egg2.jpg

Swallowing her food down (I didn't take a picture of her while the rat wasn't swallowed yet because I had only the flashlight on to give her a safe feeling):
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...egg_eating.jpg

Back to her job:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l.../curly_egg.jpg

Hope this all works out and gives the maternal incubation crowd a success story.

Congrats!! Please be sure to keep us posted on the progress.

Good luck! Bumble bees are awesome!

Good luck. The eggs already look a little dried out though. They should be nice and plump with no dimpling until later in the cycle.
If they don't start to plump up I woulld get an incubator and have it on stand by just in case.


Gavin

Congrats on the eggs, but not sure you need to worry about feeding her if she is going to be sitting on eggs (seriously, think about that one). She can be off feed for half a year or more without concern.

Most people incubate so that they can get their snakes eating again, but maternally incubating means that you delay that process for at least two more months.

Good luck with them. :)

Bruce

Hope the new mommy does a good job! Congrats!

Yeah, they're still a bit dimpled but they're not as dimply as yesterday, so hopefully the increased humidity in the box is gonna work out. I'm thinking of misting tomorrow if they're still dimply. Curly is really not liking it when we open the tub though. I opened it today to change the water and her head poked out of the shoe box ready to strike! Good thing I had the towel handy. So, I'm thinking I probably should change the water every 2-3 days now instead of daily. What do y'all think?

Yeah, we got an igloo that I'm fixing into a bator just in case we need to evac the eggs. I probably can't get it stabilized until mid-week, so I hope everything is good 'til then.

Oh, and I just realized that since Curly ate, she might poop on the eggs! Didn't think of that. I'm gonna have to figure out what to do in that case...

congrats on the eggs bumblebee are great i would incubate them myself so the momma can get some rest but my buddy has done it that way with no problems so good luck

She may leave the eggs to defecate, but if you are maternally incubating, just relax and let her do her job, stop feeding her. :)

She is a snake, her system is designed to deal with this process and she can go without feed.

Bruce

PS: Some snakes, even when off the eggs, simply do not eat till within 7 days of their clutches hatching. Nature kicks in and circumvents our attempts to get them on feed again. It is natural.

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement guys! The 2 eggs that I can see are not dimply like yesterday anymore! Yeay. Any advice on whether to keep changing the water daily or leave it for 3 days at a stretch?

IT'S ONLY DAY 9. It's been a VERY long 9 days...

How in the world do you guys wait 60 days????????????????????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

Any advice on whether to keep changing the water daily or leave it for 3 days at a stretch?

---

Ball pythons do not need water changed daily, every 3 days or so is perfectly fine :gj:

Heh,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

IT'S ONLY DAY 9. It's been a VERY long 9 days...

How in the world do you guys wait 60 days????????????????????

---

Well putting them in an incubator that doesn't need feeding and watering helps. :P :bolt:

I use a wireless temp probe which means I don't need to look at the incubator to keep track so I only really do a weekly check on the eggs for candling, problems etc.

Having to see them everyday while checking on mama would drive me cookoo. :rolleye2:

Whats mama's temperament like while she is doing this and how often does she leave the eggs to drink or feed?


dr del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Heh,



Well putting them in an incubator that doesn't need feeding and watering helps. :P :bolt:

I use a wireless temp probe which means I don't need to look at the incubator to keep track so I only really do a weekly check on the eggs for candling, problems etc.

Having to see them everyday while checking on mama would drive me cookoo. :rolleye2:

Whats mama's temperament like while she is doing this and how often does she leave the eggs to drink or feed?


dr del

---

Psycho mama is what she is right now. Have to be very careful changing the water dish coz if her head is peeking out the hole, then she's gonna tag and you're it. Fortunately, nobody has been bitten yet. We've been changing the water only every 3 days and besides that and the daily temp/humidity/smell check which we do without opening the tub, we've been leaving her pretty much alone.

The water dish is right next to the hole of her "egg hide" so she just extends her neck out the hole and drinks.

We fed her on day 2, so we're not gonna try again until day 12. Which would be the time we plan on re-candling, visually checking the eggs, etc.

From what we can see (we can only see the top 2 eggs within her coils, the eggs are white and lost its dimpling around day 4). There is no smell, not even poop smell, so she hasn't pooped yet, we think. But, we won't really know for sure until we take her out 3 days from now...

THREE DAYS FROM NOW SOUNDS SOOOOOO FAR AWAAAAAY! I can't think of 51 days from now. That's just crazily far away. Not sure if the incubator would change things. It would still be FAR AWAY!!!

I feel like I'm having a 3rd child...

Any and all advice on care for both mom and eggs are all completely welcome...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

Psycho mama is what she is right now. Have to be very careful changing the water dish coz if her head is peeking out the hole, then she's gonna tag and you're it. Fortunately, nobody has been bitten yet. We've been changing the water only every 3 days and besides that and the daily temp/humidity/smell check which we do without opening the tub, we've been leaving her pretty much alone.

The water dish is right next to the hole of her "egg hide" so she just extends her neck out the hole and drinks.

We fed her on day 2, so we're not gonna try again until day 12. Which would be the time we plan on re-candling, visually checking the eggs, etc.

From what we can see (we can only see the top 2 eggs within her coils, the eggs are white and lost its dimpling around day 4). There is no smell, not even poop smell, so she hasn't pooped yet, we think. But, we won't really know for sure until we take her out 3 days from now...

THREE DAYS FROM NOW SOUNDS SOOOOOO FAR AWAAAAAY! I can't think of 51 days from now. That's just crazily far away. Not sure if the incubator would change things. It would still be FAR AWAY!!!

I feel like I'm having a 3rd child...

Any and all advice on care for both mom and eggs are all completely welcome...

---

Congrats on the clutch! Maternal incubation is definitely a rewarding experience, but I would caution you to not remove her from the clutch or feed her any more meals until she's finished her brooding task.

Getting back to feeding on regular sized meals can sometimes make them lose interest in brooding. They fast during this time and it gives them a concave belly perfect for protecting the eggs. If you fill the belly, she may stop doing what she needs to do. If you really must feed her anything, make sure it's something very SMALL so that it doesn't making brooding uncomfortable for her.

When I let my female do this last year, she fasted for many months. I did offer her a meal a couple weeks into incubation but she wanted nothing to do with it and I didn't offer again until her eggs had pipped and babies were crawling around her. After that, she started chowing down on rats again and regained her weight in no time. This year, I've got two females maternally incubating and even though I have an incubator on standby, I'm afraid that moving either female will kick them out of mommy mode so I'm only opening their tubs every few days to give them fresh water and, if their coils are loose enough, get a quick glimpse of the tops of eggs.

Hope it helps and good luck!

Why are you feeding her while she is incubating?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Why are you feeding her while she is incubating?

---

Very good question LadyOhh! In my research - books and in this forum, the #1 disadvantage to maternal incubation is that the mamma snake uses tons of energy and use up tons of fat to incubate and end up losing up to 1/3 of her weight in the process.

I was reading this one thread here (if I find the thread, I'll post it, right now I can't seem to find it) that was linked by other threads about maternal incubation and how she tried to feed mamma snake but she won't eat. So, I figured to try to feed my mamma snake too while I was moving her to a better "egg environment". And she ate... so I figured to just keep her 10-day feeding schedule that she has been on for the past year.

But, it seems like that is not the right route, so I'm going to just keep my every-3-day watering schedule and that's it.... for the next FIFTY-ONE days! I still can't believe how far away that is!

I got the make-shift cooler-turned-incubator just in case.

Here's the thread I was referring to:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=33496
There's a different thread that Quiet Tempest posted (it might be on a different forum) on this same snake that mentioned her trying to feed the mamma. I can't find it though.

And here's an excerpt from a book showing the mamma snake eating while incubating:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...0&postcount=33

... which was one of the sources of my initial idea to go with maternal incubation and try feeding at the same time.

I do know of other keepers who maternally incubate and offer food to their girls, but if you're going to feed them I would only use small feeder animals (mouse rather than rat) otherwise it's likely to make things uncomfortable or awkward for mom while brooding her clutch.

Personally, I'd worry that returning to regular feeds would throw a female out of brooding mode and she'd lose interest in her clutch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anatess

Here's the thread I was referring to:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=33496
There's a different thread that Quiet Tempest posted (it might be on a different forum) on this same snake that mentioned her trying to feed the mamma. I can't find it though.

And here's an excerpt from a book showing the mamma snake eating while incubating:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...0&postcount=33

... which was one of the sources of my initial idea to go with maternal incubation and try feeding at the same time.

---

I didn't realize that 2006 thread existed. I just finished reading the 20+ pages and some of the opinions there were a bit... well.. conflicting would be one word for it.. :rolleyes: I love seeing images of brooding mothers, though, and eggs hatching within mother's coils is just awesome. Thanks for that link. :)

There are a few pics of females maternally incubating and maternally incubated eggs hatching on RC Reptiles' Collection page. I'm a sucker for those sorts of images. Figured I'd share the link with anyone else who enjoys them.
http://www.rcreptiles.com/collection.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I didn't realize that 2006 thread existed. I just finished reading the 20+ pages and some of the opinions there were a bit... well.. conflicting would be one word for it.. :rolleyes: I love seeing images of brooding mothers, though, and eggs hatching within mother's coils is just awesome. Thanks for that link. :)

There are a few pics of females maternally incubating and maternally incubated eggs hatching on RC Reptiles' Collection page. I'm a sucker for those sorts of images. Figured I'd share the link with anyone else who enjoys them.
http://www.rcreptiles.com/collection.html

---

Oh my goodness... sorry Quiet Tempest! I don't know why I thought it was your snake in that link. It is Rapture's snake!

Although, I've enjoyed reading your maternal incubation thread as well!

Thank you for that link! Yeah, I found a liking for maternally incubating snake pictures. I've been searching for more of them on the internet. :)

Here's a link to my thread from last year ;)

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=95885

Good luck on taking that road less traveled. :gj:

It does amaze me that one of the main reasons we like to keep snakes because they have interesting behaviors. Then when we have a chance to actually witness and keep records on what is probably the most interesting behavior of all snakes, we go the safe route and set 'em up in an incubator. I understand not wanting to take the risk on a clutch of spider het lavender pied x het lavender pied, but why not do something a little different with a clutch of pastels or spiders?

It's funny how we keep something because of our interest in their behaviors, but then set them up in racks on newsprint, feed F/T, and incubate artificially. :8:

Just imagine if everything goes good you'll have done something most BP "experts" have never done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garweft

Good luck on taking that road less traveled. :gj:

It does amaze me that one of the main reasons we like to keep snakes because they have interesting behaviors. Then when we have a chance to actually witness and keep records on what is probably the most interesting behavior of all snakes, we go the safe route and set 'em up in an incubator. I understand not wanting to take the risk on a clutch of spider het lavender pied x het lavender pied, but why not do something a little different with a clutch of pastels or spiders?

It's funny how we keep something because of our interest in their behaviors, but then set them up in racks on newsprint, feed F/T, and incubate artificially. :8:

Just imagine if everything goes good you'll have done something most BP "experts" have never done.

---

Garweft, your comment made me trust my instincts to see how this all goes.

We went ahead and fed mamma snake on schedule. We went back and forth on it - my husband and I - and finally decided to go ahead and feed her. It gave me a chance to candle the eggs, check for poop, mold, etc. And it gave my husband a chance to check mamma snake's health. Everything looks good although mamma is down to 1400grams.

We offered a slightly smaller ASF rat than she's used to. She went for the rat in 2 seconds flat. We put her back in the tub after she ate and she went straight to the eggs and coiled again.

Everything is fine except I noticed that one of the eggs is squooshed like she had her coil on top of it the whole time. It has good fat veins. I tried to press it a bit to see if it re-shapes but it looks like it's stuck just like that.

Admittedly, I'm really not as worried about the eggs than I am about mamma snake but it would be really cool if all 5 of these eggs hatch out fine.

THIRTY-EIGHT MORE DAYS. Sooooooo looooonnngggg....

Because mom does put the squeeze on the eggs from time to time, they can sometimes end up looking a bit misshapen during incubation. One of the eggs from my clutch last year had a permanent dent but it, and the rest, hatched out perfectly healthy babies. :)

how about an update?