Maternally Incubating Again =)

Since I had good luck with it last year, I intend to maternally incubate again this year. The only difference this time around is that I'm not using the 40g breeder and lay box. These girls are in my rack in Sterilite tubs. :)


Dewshine on May 16....
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/795/may16d.jpg

Dewshine on May 17....
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9214/may17.jpg


I'm not sure how many eggs she's got in there. I'm just going to leave her alone for now. She'll uncoil or move away from them for a drink at some point and maybe I'll get a count then. When I last palpated her I think there were 5 follicles so I'm going to guess there are that many eggs in the pile. She was bred earlier this year by my normal but a friend loaned me his pastel over the past couple of months and she locked with him a few times as well.



Ailynn on May 20....
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5323/cimg5352.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6814/cimg5351.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2407/cimg5354.jpg

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5483/cimg5353q.jpg


Ailynn is my 5 year old daughter's snake and she laid her clutch earlier today. I believe she's holding 5 eggs (possibly 6?) but I'm not going to pester her to get a full count. I'm sure I'll find out what she's got all in due time. So far both of these girls are guarding their eggs beautifully and from what I can see of the eggs, they're doing well too. The pairing for Ailynn was basically the same as with Dewshine - normal early on and pastel just before ovulation. I really hope the pastel sealed the deal. Had I known that I was going to get to borrow my friend's pastel, I'd have just used him.

Last year I was able to candle Dewshine's eggs while she was coiled around them and I may try to candle these in a few days. If I do, I'll try to get some more pics.



Kyriel, my het pied female, has 5 big follicles growing and is still locking up with Gabriel, my het pied male. I'm very anxious to get a clutch from her. I want very much to have a piebald of my own and even better if it's one I produced, myself. I keep peeking in on her hoping to see her ovulating but nothing yet. ;) I'll be sure to get pics if I do.

Good Luck again! :gj:

you have better nerves then I do... Good luck!!!!

Sweet congrats :gj:

I do have an incubator up and running just in case, but if this year is anything like last I shouldn't have any problems. My only concern would be the girls losing interest in brooding but they're both doing exactly what they're supposed to and I'm trying to avoid disturbing them too much. :)

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6408/cimg5446.jpg

This is a pic of Kyriel, my het pied. She's starting to glow and has been staying coiled in the cool side of their tub so I'm hopeful that she'll be ovulating soon. I palpated her and her follicles are huge now. They feel very much like eggs already and if she wasn't sticking to the cool side and still locking fairly regularly with the het pied male, I'd say I'd missed her ovulation. I tried to get a decent shot of her bulge, but she just refuses to cooperate. You may just have to take my word for it.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8956/cimg5451.jpg



I also got a couple more shots of the girls already incubating their clutches.

Ailynn.. just 8 days brooding
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4918/cimg5454.jpg


Dewshine.. 11 days brooding
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4075/cimg5456.jpg


I have candled both of these clutches but no pics because I only have so many hands and the mothers aren't particularly fond of having me bothering them or their eggs right now. Both clutches have big healthy veins and I don't anticipate having any problems. I'm happy with the two clutches already on the ground but I'm excited about the clutch the het pieds should give me. I've been wanting a pied of my own for a long time now. :)

Congrats!
Good luck and keep us posted!

Got more pics and tried to get a decent shot of egg candling. Moms weren't thrilled with me checking in on them, of course, so I didn't linger for long. Sorry the pics are a bit blurry.


Ailynn 11 days in...
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8407/cimg5464.jpg
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3740/cimg5463.jpg


Dewshine 14 days in...
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2062/cimg5465.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/381/cimg5467m.jpg

They are coming along well :gj:

I love the last pic,..its like she's having an ultrasound and seeing the beginning of one of her babies for the first time. :D
I hope everything works out like last year.

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Originally Posted by bubblz

I love the last pic,..its like she's having an ultrasound and seeing the beginning of one of her babies for the first time. :D
I hope everything works out like last year.

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I thought for sure that I was about to get tagged while I was trying to get that last pic. LOL She never hissed or acted aggressive in any way but she watched my every movement like a hawk while I had her tub open. :P

Congrats and good luck

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1540/kyrielovy.jpg

My het pied project seems to be coming to fruition. :) Looking forward to having a third clutch of eggs and to the possibility of pied(s) in there!

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I thought for sure that I was about to get tagged while I was trying to get that last pic. LOL She never hissed or acted aggressive in any way but she watched my every movement like a hawk while I had her tub open. :P

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Haha as I was lookin at the candling pics I was thinking "ohhh wow...braver than I, that's for sure!" I'd have covered their head with a cloth I think (at the very least lol), but I'm a wuss and am not lookin forward to getting bit.

Good luck with the pied project! :gj:

YouTube - candling Ailynn clutch.mpg

The clip is grainy but I got to peek at a little worm in one of the eggs tonight. :) This is one of Ailynn's eggs so it's just over 2 weeks old right now.

That looks soooo cool. Good luck obtaining your pied lol

Got video of the other female with eggs as well. She's on Day 20 now.

YouTube - Dewshine's Clutch at Day 20

cool video, you can see it moving.

Very cool. Congrats!

That is kewl, thanks for sharing.

way to go there everything looks really good :gj::gj:

Just updating with more pics:

Taken on June 14th..

Ailynn at 25 Days
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3391/cimg5533.jpg

Video -
YouTube - AilynnClutchDay25.mpg


Dewshine at 28 Days
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/785/cimg5535.jpg

Video -
YouTube - DewshineClutchDay28.mpg

Thanks for the update, they seem to be doing great :)

i love it they look great!!!!!!!:gj:

They are looking good :gj:

That's awesome! Does she still put up the weight every year for you?

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

That's awesome! Does she still put up the weight every year for you?

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This is only my second year breeding balls, but I didn't have any trouble getting her back to her normal size within a few weeks of her eggs hatching last year. I don't anticipate any problems with her or any of the other females this year. :)

Cool vids. Can't wait to see what the babies look like! I hope you get a few pastels out of the first two clutches. :)

I neglected to mention in my last post here about an incident with Dewshine's clutch. For whatever reason, one of the eggs from her clutch (the weird snowflakey eggs) was rolled out when I checked on her the other day. She loosened her coils when I opened the tub and I was able to carefully place it back with the other eggs. I did candle it because I was afraid that something might have happened to it after having rolled. It was still moving around inside so I closed things up and left her alone. I came back later that night and the same egg was rolled out. I actually pulled Dewshine off of the eggs and held her with one hand while I put the roll-away-egg closer to its sibling eggs with the other. When I was confident that all four of the eggs were sitting snug together, I placed Dewshine back in the tub. She immediately coiled around them and I made sure that her coils held the problematic egg in place before I closed the tub again. I haven't had any further trouble with roll outs. The egg I was so worried about is actually the egg featured in Dewshine's vid above.

What good Mommys...they are keeping those eggs looking nice and healthy. Not going to ever breed, but it seems like maternal incubating would be the the natural thing to do...seems like you wouldnt have to worry as much. I always see the pics of the eggs with dents, mildew and all sorts of other prob, but these eggs look so healthy...I wonder why more people wouldnt do it.

Earlier tonight I offered both of these girls a rat pup just to see if they had any interest whatsoever now and while Ailynn didn't show any real interest, Dewshine snatched her meal and swallowed it before I could find the camera for a pic.


Dewshine at 48 days
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4439/cimg5628.jpg

Ailynn at 45 days
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/50/cimg5634a.jpg


I would have gotten new candling video but the eggs have started denting and the babies are taking up more room so it's kind of hard to really capture anything besides a veiny egg. The eggs feel paper-thin and soft now. Hope to see baby heads within those coils soon and get some baby pics up! :D

Thannks for the update!!...Looks like your gonna have a bunch of babies squirming around with-in the next few weeks....Good luck and enjoy it...

What were the pairings again?

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the pairing for ailynn was basically the same as with dewshine - normal early on and pastel just before ovulation. I really hope the pastel sealed the deal. Had i known that i was going to get to borrow my friend's pastel, i'd have just used him.

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:) good luck!

Glad to see the eggs are doing well! After lots of research and reading this thread I'm convinced to try maternal incubation when I do decide to breed :D

I dont know... It's nice and all but you really need to be sure everything in her area is proper. Higher humidity than usual, make sure she doesnt lay on top of the heat tape, etc (this is assuming the same general rules apply for maternal incubation as do for artificial incubation). I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs.

Personally I'd rather incubate in an incubator, the only real flaw I see to that method (assuming nothing goes wrong) is that you could be doing psychological damage to the female.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I dont know... It's nice and all but you really need to be sure everything in her area is proper. Higher humidity than usual, make sure she doesnt lay on top of the heat tape, etc (this is assuming the same general rules apply for maternal incubation as do for artificial incubation). I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs.

Personally I'd rather incubate in an incubator, the only real flaw I see to that method (assuming nothing goes wrong) is that you could be doing psychological damage to the female.

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I'm not sure what you're saying about psychological damage. That's what their nature is meant to do.

Tempest, just wanted to mention that my maternally incubating pastel has been eating every 10 days since she laid (her normal eating schedule). I don't know what that means but I've been watching those eggs and they seem to be developing like normal. The cool thing is the mother has not lost any weight and even gained a little - about 40 grams. So, I guess I'll find out when these eggs finally hatch if my decision to continue feeding was okay. I'm on day 44 now!

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Originally Posted by anatess

I'm not sure what you're saying about psychological damage. That's what their nature is meant to do.

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Oh, no I wasnt talking about the Maternal Incubation, the "method" I was speaking of was putting the eggs in an incubator. You have to remove them from the female and she's already hard wired to take care of those eggs. Seems like it would cause at least some psychological damage there.

Oh cool!!! Those moms did a better job than I did this year! Congrats! :gj: I can't wait to see those babies!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I dont know... It's nice and all but you really need to be sure everything in her area is proper. Higher humidity than usual, make sure she doesnt lay on top of the heat tape, etc (this is assuming the same general rules apply for maternal incubation as do for artificial incubation). I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs.

Personally I'd rather incubate in an incubator, the only real flaw I see to that method (assuming nothing goes wrong) is that you could be doing psychological damage to the female.

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When I did this last year, I did provide my female with a lay box since whe was being housed in a 40g breeder tank. I misted the sphagnum moss lining the box regularly for the first few weeks but it seemed largely unnecessary after the first month and stopped doing so.

The humidity is no different for these two now than before they became gravid. They're both housed in tubs in my rack system this year with cypress mulch as substrate (but they've pushed it all aside and are sitting directly on the plastic) and I've done nothing extra. I believe that the humidity in my tubs is currently around 70%.

Both females laid their clutches in the back of their tubs, which puts them directly over the heat tape but I've seen no issue with this. They picked the ideal spot for their clutch and who am I to argue with them? ;) As I understand it from other breeders, they can move the clutch if need be though I've never seen mine do so - at least not more than an inch or so. I've read that in the wild, they leave their eggs in the den to go bask and return to brood when their bodies have warmed up. In captivity, they don't need to. They just tighten or loosen their coils to hold the necessary heat and humidity for their eggs. I just check in periodically to see that everyone is doing well. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anatess

I'm not sure what you're saying about psychological damage. That's what their nature is meant to do.

Tempest, just wanted to mention that my maternally incubating pastel has been eating every 10 days since she laid (her normal eating schedule). I don't know what that means but I've been watching those eggs and they seem to be developing like normal. The cool thing is the mother has not lost any weight and even gained a little - about 40 grams. So, I guess I'll find out when these eggs finally hatch if my decision to continue feeding was okay. I'm on day 44 now!

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Last year I had offered my female a mouse while she was maternally incubating and she wanted nothing to do with it. After reading so many people say that females wouldn't eat anything while they were incubating, I figured this was to be expected (I found out later that this isn't really the case with most females). She had actually stopped eating late January/early February, laid her eggs in May, and didn't feed again until the eggs started hatching in July. I figured this year would be no different but was pleasantly surprised. :P I should have tried offering food earlier and will keep this in mind for future maternally incubated clutches.

I didn't notice any real weight loss with my female last year. She was skinny, sure, but to go so long without feeding I thought she would look terrible.

As for psychological damage... I have read that moms left to maternally incubate are easier to get back on feed after laying compared to moms whose eggs have been taken from them. Not sure where I originally read about that, though. Sorry.

Do the moms help with the hatching? Cant wait to see it.

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Originally Posted by PYMOM

Do the moms help with the hatching? Cant wait to see it.

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When they start feeling the eggs pip, they loosen their coils to let the babies crawl out. That's about all the help that can be offered. :)

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

As for psychological damage... I have read that moms left to maternally incubate are easier to get back on feed after laying compared to moms whose eggs have been taken from them. Not sure where I originally read about that, though. Sorry.

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Oh, really? Thats pretty interesting. I assumed that it would be the only major downfall in using an incubator. That makes sense, though.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

When they start feeling the eggs pip, they loosen their coils to let the babies crawl out. That's about all the help that can be offered. :)

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Tempest, sorry to be hijacking your thread a bit, but I was wondering what I should do when my pastel eggs pip. They are in a small box with mama which is in a bigger plastic container. So, in the small box, there's hardly any room for eggs and mama, no more than an inch on each of the 2 sides and about 3 inches on each of the other 2 sides (the box is rectangular). The mama can get out of the box anytime (she usually gets her body halfway out to drink) but I'm not sure if babies would know to get out. So, when the eggs pip, when do I take the mom away from the eggs? I'm just wondering if the way I got mine set up if the babies would get crushed under her!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

When I did this last year, I did provide my female with a lay box since whe was being housed in a 40g breeder tank. I misted the sphagnum moss lining the box regularly for the first few weeks but it seemed largely unnecessary after the first month and stopped doing so.

The humidity is no different for these two now than before they became gravid. They're both housed in tubs in my rack system this year with cypress mulch as substrate (but they've pushed it all aside and are sitting directly on the plastic) and I've done nothing extra. I believe that the humidity in my tubs is currently around 70%.

Both females laid their clutches in the back of their tubs, which puts them directly over the heat tape but I've seen no issue with this. They picked the ideal spot for their clutch and who am I to argue with them? ;) As I understand it from other breeders, they can move the clutch if need be though I've never seen mine do so - at least not more than an inch or so. I've read that in the wild, they leave their eggs in the den to go bask and return to brood when their bodies have warmed up. In captivity, they don't need to. They just tighten or loosen their coils to hold the necessary heat and humidity for their eggs. I just check in periodically to see that everyone is doing well. ;)

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That's such good info! :gj: And now I'm even more convinced

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Originally Posted by anatess

Tempest, sorry to be hijacking your thread a bit, but I was wondering what I should do when my pastel eggs pip. They are in a small box with mama which is in a bigger plastic container. So, in the small box, there's hardly any room for eggs and mama, no more than an inch on each of the 2 sides and about 3 inches on each of the other 2 sides (the box is rectangular). The mama can get out of the box anytime (she usually gets her body halfway out to drink) but I'm not sure if babies would know to get out. So, when the eggs pip, when do I take the mom away from the eggs? I'm just wondering if the way I got mine set up if the babies would get crushed under her!

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I don't mind at all. :)

Last year I kept my ball in a 40g breeder tank and gave her a 31qt tub to use as a lay box. I cut a hole in the top so she could come and go as she pleased.

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3293/cimg2623.jpg

When the eggs started pipping and babies started leaving the eggs, they just cruised around the lay box. One or two of them did find the hole in the lid and were roaming about in the main tank. I was worried about the mom squishing babies that were still in their eggs but kept a close eye on them. She never squished any of the babies though I can see how it could be possible. As they left their eggs, I just moved them to their own tubs and tossed the empty eggs. The mom left the box a few times to drink and once to eat but otherwise stayed with them while they hatched out and while they were exploring the laybox. I think watching her with her newly hatched babies was the best part of the whole process even if it was short lived.

any updates? has the eggs hatched?

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Originally Posted by qinw

any updates? has the eggs hatched?

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Not yet, but could be any day now. :) I'm guessing that the first clutch will start hatching on Friday and the second by Monday. We'll see.

hi bro.. i intend to do maternally incubating too if i had a chance to breed my ball.. may i ask wat is inside a lay box? when shld i put the lay box in the main tank? wat size is suitable for a lay box? is lay box a must? sorry if i ask too much.. but is my first time.. better be safe than sorry.. :)

QT:

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"I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs."

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Actually, the exact opposite is true. Ball pythons are one of the few snakes that cannot alter the temps or humidity of their environment for the time that they are "babysitting" their eggs.

i can not wait to see ur results from the maternal incubation I'm going to take pics of lucy either sunday or monday and see if I cant get some candling pics for everyone