Help...Strange looking eggs! Pictures!

This is my first year breeding and this is my second clutch of the year. This clutch consisted of 6 eggs. They were laid on April 25th. I have a few questions about these eggs.

The two eggs that I am concerned with, and you will see in the pictures, were kicked out of the coil when I found her/them. The four plump, normal looking eggs were coiled.

The eggs could have been laid up to 24 hours before I found them.

My main concern is the seriously dimpled/caved and opaque-windowed eggs you will see in the pictures.

The two discolored/dimpled/caved in eggs DO have veins just like the normal looking ones. The eggs were dimpled like they are now when I found them. The 4 that were coiled have plumped up considerably since I put them in the incubator. The other two have not. However, they still have good looking veins like the rest as far as I can tell.

But the two eggs in question are going from mostly white, to having these large opaque areas on the shell as well. They just look discolored compared to most normal eggs I have seen, and compared to my other clutch.

My temps. are shown in the pictures. The 89.2 temp was being taken from the tub with the eggs in question.

It is definitely not low humidity...humidity around 90%.

Here are the pics....any info/advice/ideas?? Thanks in advance.

http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/...101_0905-1.jpg
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/...3/101_0912.jpg
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/...3/101_0907.jpg
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/...3/101_0909.jpg
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/...3/101_0910.jpg

They look like they are going bad. May be to wet or they may just be that the egg is dieing.. it happens..

It does seem pretty wet. Although I haven't got any eggs yet, my girl is being stubborn, so I'm not experienced yet, but too wet is just as big of a problem as too dry. I'm not sure what your substrate is, but you shouldn't be able to squeeze water out of it. It looks like you could, maybe you know? But like he said, they might just be bad eggs :(

P.S. the temps look fine..

They may just be bad eggs but that egg box looks way too wet to me...

I was under the impression that even 100% humidity was not too high? And my substrate was moist...but I could not squeeze any water out of it....I don't think...have incubated 100's of bearded dragon eggs with this same vermiculite/water mixture with great success. But maybe it is...if this is the case...what do you suggest? Just make up new tubs with less-moist vermiculite? The humidity stays around 90% within the entire incubator, not just in the tubs.

The condensation is because the temps are different inside the egg tub and outside the egg tub in the incubator. I would check your moisture content as suggested before and then put your incubator in a room that is warmer (closer but not over your "temp" 88-89) or a room that has less air movement.

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Originally Posted by BaierBalls

I was under the impression that even 100% humidity was not too high? And my substrate was moist...but I could not squeeze any water out of it....I don't think...have incubated 100's of bearded dragon eggs with this same vermiculite/water mixture with great success. But maybe it is...if this is the case...what do you suggest? Just make up new tubs with less-moist vermiculite? The humidity stays around 90% within the entire incubator, not just in the tubs.

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I measure it out. 5 parts vermuclite to 1 part water.

If you squeeze the vermiculite and get water out it's too wet. You're better off too dry then too wet in my opinion. You can recover from too dry but can't if they are too wet.

They look too wet to me. I had one last year that got a weird spot like the one on the right, and a spot like the one of the left (but not as big). I thought my substrate was fine too, but I added in a lot of dry substrate anyway and the eggs improved. I also moved some of the substrate away from my eggs so that more air could get around them.

Here's what mine looked like: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=95059

I keep my hatchrite drenched so the humidity is 100% but the eggs are ona plastic grate (substrateless) so they do not come in contact with the water.

As for the eggs. Watch them and only remove them if they completely colapse or begin to stink. Id give them a chance at least.

If it is too wet, take the eggs out, do not rotate them, and add more vermiculite......no water.....mix well....place eggs back.......the dry vermiculite will absorb the water, and therefore, lowering the overall humidity.

Jason

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Originally Posted by BaierBalls

I was under the impression that even 100% humidity was not too high? And my substrate was moist...but I could not squeeze any water out of it....I don't think...have incubated 100's of bearded dragon eggs with this same vermiculite/water mixture with great success. But maybe it is...if this is the case...what do you suggest? Just make up new tubs with less-moist vermiculite? The humidity stays around 90% within the entire incubator, not just in the tubs.

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Really high humidity is good, but a lot of moisture touching the eggs is bad.

This is where substratless method comes in as the best alternative. Not worrying about mixing or too wet.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

This is where substratless method comes in as the best alternative. Not worrying about mixing or too wet.

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That's why I use it.. I can mix as wet as I want to and not worry about it ;)

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I keep my hatchrite drenched so the humidity is 100% but the eggs are ona plastic grate (substrateless) so they do not come in contact with the water.

As for the eggs. Watch them and only remove them if they completely colapse or begin to stink. Id give them a chance at least.

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x2

I think your main reason for the moisture levels is you are using a cement block with a screen lid keeping the tubs out of the water at the bottom.

You DO NOT need to keep the humidity up in the incubator if your using the vermiculite. Youve added too much moisture in the tubs and the bator. Drain the water out of the bottom and should help if not fix your problem.

Edit- Forgot to say that when taking temps from inside the egg tub you are causing more condensation inside the tubs as the outside air is warmer than inside the tubs. Thus causing the tubs to sweat, resulting in wet/sweaty eggs. I always recommend measuring the air of the bator as the eggs will heat up to the surrounding air.

If your girl kicked them out and did not coil them I would bet my left leg that they will never survive. I have never heard of an egg not volunteerily incubated by the mother being fertile, If anyone has I would love to hear of it.

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

If your girl kicked them out and did not coil them I would bet my left leg that they will never survive. I have never heard of an egg not volunteerily incubated by the mother being fertile, If anyone has I would love to hear of it.

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Where you read that. i got 2 that were roll outs not in coils. One is on day 40 and other is day 33 and both have baby snakes moving in them.

That statement is false is so many ways.

To me it looks like the eggs are sweating out. The area of the eggs where they look wet is moisture escaping the eggs. Causing them to dimple in because they are loosing moisture. Get some liquid band aid and paint that area to keep the moisture in. Most of the moisture on the side of the tubs is coming from the water in the bottom of the incubator. I placed a tub of water in the bottom of the incubator last year to keep the humidity up. Moisture started forming on the side of the tubs and side of the incubator so I took the water out of the incubator. The moisture went away and the eggs hatched with no problems. The eggs might have hatched with the water tub in there but I didn't want to chance it.
Trey

I have a kick-out incubating right now. It was laid on the 25th, and it's plump, white, and looks fine.

Generally, a dead egg would be starting to cave at this point. This one has gained weight, so it's alive.

The eggs are now is significantly drier vermiculite. Going to cut back on the moisture. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for every ones input.

The eggs are now is significantly drier vermiculite. Going to cut back on the moisture. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for every ones input.

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

If your girl kicked them out and did not coil them I would bet my left leg that they will never survive. I have never heard of an egg not volunteerily incubated by the mother being fertile, If anyone has I would love to hear of it.

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Boy are you gonna miss that leg :D happens often. I have 3 rollouts in the bator this year that looks fine.

I would take the eggs totally out of the vermiculte. Just lay a piece of egg crate on top the vermiculite and then place the eggs on top of that. That way you won't have to worry about it anymore. I think it might be too late for the top 2 eggs in your pic but good luck.

Is it not good to have any condensation on the inside of the tub? I replaced the "too-wet" vermiculite with dry vermiculite last night, but because of the humidity in my incubator, there is still condensation that forms on the inside walls of the tubs. It is a very small amount though.

Those of you that use substrateless incubation, and just use soaked vermiculite underneath your grate...I don't see how you would get no condensation inside the tub?

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Originally Posted by BaierBalls

Is it not good to have any condensation on the inside of the tub? I replaced the "too-wet" vermiculite with dry vermiculite last night, but because of the humidity in my incubator, there is still condensation that forms on the inside walls of the tubs. It is a very small amount though.

Those of you that use substrateless incubation, and just use soaked vermiculite underneath your grate...I don't see how you would get no condensation inside the tub?

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Temp fluctuation is a huge factor as well. The eggs are cooler than the surrounding air temp. Thus causing condensation.

You can look on my site and my Live Egg cam on day 40 and see the tubs are dry on the sites and lid.

SAME WEIGHT vermiculite/water = approx 95% humidity

has always served me well...

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Temp fluctuation is a huge factor as well. The eggs are cooler than the surrounding air temp. Thus causing condensation.

You can look on my site and my Live Egg cam on day 40 and see the tubs are dry on the sites and lid.

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It creates just a slight film of condensation, not enough to creat droplets.

So..any condensation on inside of tub = too wet?

I have plenty of condensation on the inside of my incubator--it's not a problem. I'm doing substratless incubation this year.

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Originally Posted by richsballpythons

this is where substratless method comes in as the best alternative. Not worrying about mixing or too wet.

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+1

I lost my very first clutch last year to this same issue. My water to vermiculite mixture was almost perfect just a little too wet and it made all the eggs rot :tears: IN the future all of my eggs will be incubated on a grate so theres no risks. Also if any sort of bacteria or chemicals somehow get on the substrate the risks are even higher. Lastly if your bator is set up well you shouldnt have to worry about this but sometimes you can have hotspots in your sbstrate and unless you lift the eggs and visually inspect the bottom you can not tell they are being burned. They bottom will begin to become brown and by that time its too late.....

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Originally Posted by BaierBalls

It creates just a slight film of condensation, not enough to creat droplets.

So..any condensation on inside of tub = too wet?

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The condensation has nothing to do with it being too wet. It forms because there is a slight difference in temp inside your egg boxes compared to outside of them. I think unless your incubator is perfect you are going to have condensation. It's not a problem. All of my clutches get condensation on the tubs at some point. I use the substrateless incubation method. I also stick a pencil under one side of the tub. This makes the tub a little unlevel which causes the condensation to roll off of the top and down the sides instead of it dripping on the eggs.

I appreciate everyone's help on this issue. These eggs are on dry vermiculite now, but it is still quite humid throughout the incubator. I think I over did the water in the vermiculite mixture. I've mixed this stuff up many times...but first time I've incubated ball eggs like this. Just too much water I believe.

They still both have veins at this point, so I'm keeping some hope for them. If I lose them...lesson learned!

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Originally Posted by BaierBalls

I appreciate everyone's help on this issue. These eggs are on dry vermiculite now, but it is still quite humid throughout the incubator. I think I over did the water in the vermiculite mixture. I've mixed this stuff up many times...but first time I've incubated ball eggs like this. Just too much water I believe.

They still both have veins at this point, so I'm keeping some hope for them. If I lose them...lesson learned!

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Sometimes our failures teach us more than our successes. I hope they all hatch and you have beautiful babies.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Where you read that. i got 2 that were roll outs not in coils. One is on day 40 and other is day 33 and both have baby snakes moving in them.

That statement is false is so many ways.

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Thats cool :gj: and my quote did say I would love to hear about it. And your not the only one in this post incubating rollouts, and I dont blame you I do to. But everyone is still incubating and quick to say Im wrong so update me when the snakes have hatched. In my eyes they're was a reason your momma snake didnt adjust her coil to nurture those eggs. I think the main reason would be no heartbeat. Hey maybe theyre picky and would kick out irregular beating eggs? Third reason could be momma snake is stupid or is working on population control. Maybe come day 40 those are planned meals for nestbound momma. Im not sure but again (and Ive never talked to G.Graziani, or BB or even my buddy next to muddy waters) Ive never heard of good eggs not being covered by a brooding mom.

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

Thats cool :gj: and my quote did say I would love to hear about it. And your not the only one in this post incubating rollouts, and I dont blame you I do to. But everyone is still incubating and quick to say Im wrong so update me when the snakes have hatched. In my eyes they're was a reason your momma snake didnt adjust her coil to nurture those eggs. I think the main reason would be no heartbeat. Hey maybe theyre picky and would kick out irregular beating eggs? Third reason could be momma snake is stupid or is working on population control. Maybe come day 40 those are planned meals for nestbound momma. Im not sure but again (and Ive never talked to G.Graziani, or BB or even my buddy next to muddy waters) Ive never heard of good eggs not being covered by a brooding mom.

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Then you have MUCH to learn grasshopper.

I have had roll outs about Every year and they ALL have hatched out.

And for a female to kick a egg out because theres no heart beat is just non sense. Theres no heart or any beat of anykind in the eggs on the day their laid. It happens to all or most females sooner or later and they WILL incubate just fine if Showing veins.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Then you have MUCH to learn grasshopper.

I have had roll outs about Every year and they ALL have hatched out.

And for a female to kick a egg out because theres no heart beat is just non sense. Theres no heart or any beat of anykind in the eggs on the day their laid. It happens to all or most females sooner or later and they WILL incubate just fine if Showing veins.

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There has got to be some reasoning for eggs not being incubated. It sounds like you have a lot of info and should start logging it down. Do you think you that your girls planned on eating those eggs that she was not going to incubate. Or do you think she planned on just letting it go with ambient temp/ taking turns with It etc. Maybe population control? DO you have enough info to make a hypothesis? This is good stuff, this is what I was looking for. Are the snakes that hatched out of the stray eggs healthy? healthy as hatchlings, etc.? In regards to the heartbeat thing If a ballpython can sense temperature differentiations of 1/200th degree I think they can sense a fertile embryo after it leaves its body for more air. Let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

There has got to be some reasoning for eggs not being incubated. It sounds like you have a lot of info and should start logging it down. Do you think you that your girls planned on eating those eggs that she was not going to incubate. Or do you think she planned on just letting it go with ambient temp/ taking turns with It etc. Maybe population control? DO you have enough info to make a hypothesis? This is good stuff, this is what I was looking for. Are the snakes that hatched out of the stray eggs healthy? healthy as hatchlings, etc.? In regards to the heartbeat thing If a ballpython can sense temperature differentiations of 1/200th degree I think they can sense a fertile embryo after it leaves its body for more air. Let me know what you think.

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Yes one of my roll out eggs that hatched in 2007 laid a 5 egg clutch this season.

And i do not maternal incubate my eggs at all. Once laid they are removed to the incubator as soon as the female has finished laying them.

And well ball pythons dont eat eggs so idk where you keep getting these weird assumptions from.

Good luck with thosee eggs. I have a few clutches that should hatch next week. Can;t wait to see who the sire is. I haven't got a clue. I threw everything I had at my females this year except the albino, he got a girl all to himself lol.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

And well ball pythons dont eat eggs so idk where you keep getting these weird assumptions from.

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What weird assumptions? If you were in the middle of a savannah in the ground/mound with nothing around for an acre and you just layed a clutch of infertile eggs and no rodent was in your burrow you would eat your eggs too. Granted this wouldnt happen in captivity, again Im speaking not in captivity.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Yes one of my roll out eggs that hatched in 2007 laid a 5 egg clutch this season.

And i do not maternal incubate my eggs at all.

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Its starting to sound like your roll outs arent rejects. If you dont maternal incubate at all. How long after the lay are you splitting them up? Maybe she didnt have a chance to regroup? Ive had snakes lay in 30 minutes on the other hand Ive had snakes take 6 hours and regather a stray (fertile egg during the process)

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

Its starting to sound like your roll outs arent rejects. If you dont maternal incubate at all. How long after the lay are you splitting them up? Maybe she didnt have a chance to regroup? Ive had snakes lay in 30 minutes on the other hand Ive had snakes take 6 hours and regather a stray (fertile egg during the process)

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They are taken from the female once they are found. Usually the night after work or in the morning before work so it could be hours before i find them.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

They are taken from the female once they are found. Usually the night after work or in the morning before work so it could be hours before i find them.

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Gotcha so there is time with the mother cool. That is interesting ive never known of it, Im gonna have to start a thread on the subject because its a great topic.

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

Thats cool :gj: and my quote did say I would love to hear about it. And your not the only one in this post incubating rollouts, and I dont blame you I do to. But everyone is still incubating and quick to say Im wrong so update me when the snakes have hatched. In my eyes they're was a reason your momma snake didnt adjust her coil to nurture those eggs. I think the main reason would be no heartbeat. Hey maybe theyre picky and would kick out irregular beating eggs? Third reason could be momma snake is stupid or is working on population control. Maybe come day 40 those are planned meals for nestbound momma. Im not sure but again (and Ive never talked to G.Graziani, or BB or even my buddy next to muddy waters) Ive never heard of good eggs not being covered by a brooding mom.

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I personally think these two got left out simply because she decided to lay her eggs in a hide that was not tall enough for her to coil all the eggs easily. This was her first time breeding. I think she laid them, attempted to coil them and there was simply not enough room in the hide for her to coil completely around all 6 eggs, and two rolled out.

I took it as another "first time breeding lesson learned"...take out the smaller hide when egg laying is near!

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Originally Posted by BaierBalls

Is it not good to have any condensation on the inside of the tub? I replaced the "too-wet" vermiculite with dry vermiculite last night, but because of the humidity in my incubator, there is still condensation that forms on the inside walls of the tubs. It is a very small amount though.

Those of you that use substrateless incubation, and just use soaked vermiculite underneath your grate...I don't see how you would get no condensation inside the tub?

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I'm a little late to this post but here's what mine look like. The humidity should be in the egg tub only and not your incubator. My incubator runs around 30% humidity but my egg tubs run 100% humidity. As you can see my substrate is soaked and even has water on top. I also want to say that my incubator is a freezer converted and has fans to circulate the air flow and contol any hot spots.

[IMG]http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/...s/148_4851.jpg[/IMG]

Gavin