Sad discovery.

Well I went downstairs this morning to water, spot clean, check temps, and mist cages.

I made a very sad discovery. Ting my new ratsnake was dead:tears::tears:. I just got him wednesday.


I don't know what happened. His temps were within the rangers I researched. He had good humidty, daily mistings and cypress to burrow in and a humid hide. He had 4 other hides to. New water daily.

Wednesday night and thursday morning he had been stationary with his mouth open. But his mouth looked healthy and he had no wheezing or labored breathing. He favored the cool side of the cage, but I assumed it was because his species likes it cool. Plus I had covered the glass front in hopes that it would help in acclimate. I attributed the open mouth to an uncomfortable snake as did the breeder.

He seemed better yesterday. No open mouth. It makes me wonder if the light brown substance in the container he came in was just poop or something else. I didn't think to look or even mention it I just assumed it was.

I feel pretty shaken. Was it because of me? IS it my fault this poor snake is dead? Do I even have any buisness being in this hobby? Did I kill this poor little snake?


I researched ratsnakes so much for a month before I bought him. I thought I was so ready. What if something happens to opera now? I love snakes, I thought I was doing really well. But what if I am some snake angel of death.

What if my BP is suffering right now to. I mean she seems fine her temps below the cypress and humidity are good.

I'm really upset, I wish I knew what I did wrong. Poor little guy. I'm sorry little dude.:tears:

Don't be so hard on yourself. Somtimes these things just happen for no particular reason. I'm sure Opera will be just fine. I am truly sorry for your loss.

wow being so new and gaping the whole time I would think that he was sick to begin with. I am so sorry for your loss...loosing any pet is so hard!! Don't give up it sounds as though you were doing everything right!!

I appreciate it. I guess I'll email the breeder today and see what he has to say.

I researched RI, I didn't see or hear any signs of it. I dunno what it was.

Sorry for your loss.
I saw the picture of Ting earlier this week. Very awesome.
I would contact the person you got him from. At least bto let them know what happened.

Sorry for your lose. Anybody thats that hard on themself defanitly belongs in this hobby it shows you realy care, so keep your head up. These things just happen somtimes:(

Sorry about your loss. You should get a necropsy done to know what really happened.

Sorry for your loss. The thing is, sometimes its just nature. Not every offspring comes out healthy, and its only natural for some to die. Unfortuneatly it was yours that died. Dont assume it was your fault though. It may have just been born with a defect.

So sorry for your loss!

I think Hulizack's suggestion to get a necropsy done is a very good one. Knowing why Ting died will give you some peace of mind. Even if you do find out it was your fault, you will at least feel better about your ability to prevent the same thing in the future.

I also agree with Michelle (BPElizabeth) that since it happened so soon after you got him, and the open mouth thing started even sooner, that the snake was most likely already sick when it arrived.

I would definitely contact the person you got him from, immediately so that he is aware what happened, and again after you get the necropsy results back. It is possible that you will be offered a replacement snake or a refund. However, I think the more important reason is to let him know to look for any possible issues on his end so they can be corrected.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I think Hulizack's suggestion to get a necropsy done is a very good one. Knowing why Ting died will give you some peace of mind. Even if you do find out it was your fault, you will at least feel better about your ability to prevent the same thing in the future.

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

Sorry about your loss. You should get a necropsy done to know what really happened.

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By chance, have either of you had a necropsy performed on any of your animals?

And I'm sorry for your loss of Ting, Seru.

R.I.P sorry for your loss. I would like to kno what was wrong with it.:confused::confused:

Sounds like you got a sick snake. Sorry to hear about your loss. I've lost a snake like this too. Got the snake from another breeder, this being a 1500 gram female ball. Noticed the snake wasn't flicking it's tongue at all. Made note of that. Two days later she was open mouth beathing. Got a vet appointment for 2 days later. Got a bunch of Baytril. Went home, got up the next morning to check on the snake and she was dead. She just went down hill so fast. Vet couldn't believe it when I called to let him know. He said she wasn't that sick or he would have injected directly into the air sac.

Sorry for your loss!
Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by Hulihzack

Sorry about your loss. You should get a necropsy done to know what really happened.

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That was my first thought after the shock. There's a reptile vet not to far from here. About half an hour. I should have taken him yesterday. But being a newbie and talking to the breeder. We both kinda assumed it was a defensive thing. I told myself he he was still doing it sunday and didn't eat. We'd go first thing.

I waited to long and it kills me.


How much is a necropsy? I contacted the breeder to let them know but they are off on saturday.

Sorry to DP

Just talked to a local herp vet, $70 for the initial, $130 for each tissue sample sent away. Sadly thats not money I have, atleast for the tissue sent away. I just bought a new water heater and had to pay damages from the old one. as well as alot of money going to dig my parents out of financial trouble.

I noticed though that on his underside he had a long black line on his white belly that seem indented as did part of his body.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

What if my BP is suffering right now to. I mean she seems fine her temps below the cypress and humidity are good.

I'm really upset, I wish I knew what I did wrong. Poor little guy. I'm sorry little dude.:tears:

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Joey - I'm really sorry about your loss! Have you contacted the breeder to see what sort of health guarantee they offer? Especially since you JUST got him?

I also wanted to note - you want to know the temp on TOP of the cypress, where your BP is actually laying, not what it is UNDER the substrate. Be sure to be measuring there, because it may be too cool on top if you're measuring below.

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Originally Posted by CA cowgirl

By chance, have either of you had a necropsy performed on any of your animals?

And I'm sorry for your loss of Ting, Seru.

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I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this question? I've never had a necropsy done, but I've also never had an animal die that required one. I absolutely would get one though, if I had an unexpected death.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Joey - I'm really sorry about your loss! Have you contacted the breeder to see what sort of health guarantee they offer? Especially since you JUST got him?

I also wanted to note - you want to know the temp on TOP of the cypress, where your BP is actually laying, not what it is UNDER the substrate. Be sure to be measuring there, because it may be too cool on top if you're measuring below.

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They are off friday and saturday. But I emailed and left a voicemail.


See everyone is telling different things on where to check temps! :P

to get it 90-93 on top of my half inch of cypress I have to heat the bottom of the tank to like 110*. And people tell me thats no good the bottom needs to be in range.


I get so confused. I need to stop using cypress it's to insulating.


EDIT: And it's a little less than a half inch thick to boot! She's pretty good at moving it out of her way it seems. MAybe I should turn it up again.

Any breeder would cover this. Only been 3 days and most offer 5-7 day health guarantee. Personally i would ask for refund and go elsewhere. It does happen but until you find out why dont accept another from that person till then.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

They are off friday and saturday. But I emailed and left a voicemail.


See everyone is telling different things on where to check temps! :P

to get it 90-93 on top of my half inch of cypress I have to heat the bottom of the tank to like 110*. And people tell me thats no good the bottom needs to be in range.


I get so confused. I need to stop using cypress it's to insulating.


EDIT: And it's a little less than a half inch thick to boot! She's pretty good at moving it out of her way it seems. MAybe I should turn it up again.

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And you need to always measure temps on the bottom. Thats the hottest spot of the cage and needs to be optimal encase snake were to come in contact with it. the bottom should be the recommended temps for the snake not the surface of the substrate.

I am running low 80's on the top of both sides of the substrate. And low ninties on the bottom of the basking spot. Usually 92-94. 90 at night (The drop is Not on purpose)


This company is the only one I know thats sells coxi, but your right rich. I just don't feel comfortable ordering from them again right now. They are a big reputable company but maybe I should just get a couple corns from BHB.


It hurts for me to be mean and tell them I want a refund not a replacement though. They were always nice to me on the phone.

Your temps could of sped up whtat ever was wrong with him. Too hot can cause stress which is a bad thing when you have a sick snake.

Rats,Corns,Kings i always keep 82-84F warm side max Cool sides can be 72-77 no problems.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Joey - I'm really sorry about your loss! Have you contacted the breeder to see what sort of health guarantee they offer? Especially since you JUST got him?

I also wanted to note - you want to know the temp on TOP of the cypress, where your BP is actually laying, not what it is UNDER the substrate. Be sure to be measuring there, because it may be too cool on top if you're measuring below.

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I have to respond on this.

This is how burns are created. Snakes will move the bedding away when moving around. And if the top is 90 but the bottom is over 100 due to the insulating substrate, we have a problem now. You need to know the bottom(hottest spot) your snake can get to. And if the top isnt the same temp then THIN out tbe bedding or change bedding's to achieve your temps.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Your temps could of sped up whtat ever was wrong with him. Too hot can cause stress which is a bad thing when you have a sick snake.

Rats,Corns,Kings i always keep 82-84F warm side max Cool sides can be 72-77 no problems.

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The coxi was on a seperate set up. The temps on the bottom of his substrate never went over 83. His temps were always in the range for that species.He did have a cool side of 68-72, which I read was fine for asian rats and which the breeder said was good.


His Hot spot was on the same thermostat as my BP's cool spot.


And her hot spot was hers alone not his.

Edit: I check the bottom of the cage and the top of the substrate with my temp gun 3 times a day usually.

You called PE as soon as you discovered the gaping mouth - correct? I mean he started showing signs of distress the evening you got him.............

Even with refrigerating the corpse, you are pushing the time window to get an accurate necropsy if you don't pull the trigger Monday.

Let us know how this is resolved..........

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You called PE as soon as you discovered the gaping mouth - correct? I mean he started showing signs of distress the evening you got him.............

Even with refrigerating the corpse, you are pushing the time window to get an accurate necropsy if you don't pull the trigger Monday.

Let us know how this is resolved..........

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Yes I called them first thing the next morning to let them know. Which was thursday morning the morning after I got Him. I think I emailed them wednesday night about it but there office was closed.


I want to get a necropsy done but money is an issue here. So many unforseen things got thrown on my shoulder last month.


I'll make sure to keep everyone updated. I hope they give me a refund.

I'm so sorry for your loss...:sniff: Ting was a beautiful lil guy too! :hug:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this question? I've never had a necropsy done, but I've also never had an animal die that required one. I absolutely would get one though, if I had an unexpected death.

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My reasons for asking are: what needs to be done to ensure an accurate necropsy? Skiploder shares some insight that the animal must be evaluated in a short window. Specifics I don't know. Thus asking my question to those that suggested it might've drawn the answer. No sense asking the questions if they haven't had a necropsy done to any of their critters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You called PE as soon as you discovered the gaping mouth - correct? I mean he started showing signs of distress the evening you got him.............

Even with refrigerating the corpse, you are pushing the time window to get an accurate necropsy if you don't pull the trigger Monday.

Let us know how this is resolved..........

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And Seru's answer here is also why I asked, to find out what the cost should be as cost can be prohibitive to some people. I hope this helps you understand the relevancy of my question. :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Sorry to DP

Just talked to a local herp vet, $70 for the initial, $130 for each tissue sample sent away. Sadly thats not money I have, atleast for the tissue sent away. I just bought a new water heater and had to pay damages from the old one. as well as alot of money going to dig my parents out of financial trouble.

I noticed though that on his underside he had a long black line on his white belly that seem indented as did part of his body.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CA cowgirl

My reasons for asking are: what needs to be done to ensure an accurate necropsy? Skiploder shares some insight that the animal must be evaluated in a short window. Specifics I don't know. Thus asking my question to those that suggested it might've drawn the answer. No sense asking the questions if they haven't had a necropsy done to any of their critters.



And Seru's answer here is also why I asked, to find out what the cost should be as cost can be prohibitive to some people. I hope this helps you understand the relevancy of my question. :sweeet:

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Three to four days max - even with refrigeration (no freezing).

I think Seru notified the seller within a reasonable amount of time - and the seller is, by all accounts, a reputable one. I am still interested in seeing how they make this right.

I am a little jittery. But I wanna have faith. I think the guys at PE will do right by me. I don't expect my shipping back but I'd like a refund. Atleast something. I understand mistakes happen, in such a big operation your bound to accidentally send a sick snake.


Still this incident has made me a little crazy. I am super jittery over my abilities as a keeper. I just hope I am doing right by them. I'm really trying my best.

I'm really sorry for your loss, I hope you feel better soon.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

I have to respond on this.

This is how burns are created. Snakes will move the bedding away when moving around. And if the top is 90 but the bottom is over 100 due to the insulating substrate, we have a problem now. You need to know the bottom(hottest spot) your snake can get to. And if the top isnt the same temp then THIN out tbe bedding or change bedding's to achieve your temps.

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I will respectfully disagree - I've always measured the temps on top of the substrate and none of mine have burrowed to get beneath it, nor have I ever had a burn.

Lots of ways to successfully keep our critters! :)

Ah I'm so sorry, losing a loved pet is so sad, best of luck.

Sorry for your loss :(

OK, a few things in this thread I want to respond to.

Measuring temps: I think that ideally you should know what the temp is both above and below the substrate. The snake is most likely to spend most of its time on top of the substrate, so of course you should know the temps there. But, there is also the chance of it burrowing down into the substrate, or just pushing the substrate aside. If your temps under the substrate are too hot, this could result in a burn.

If there is a big difference between the 2 temps, such that the temp on top is too cool yet the temp underneath could burn, and you can't get it so both temps are acceptable, then you need to do something about it. Either use a thinner layer of substrate or switch substrates, or possibly raise the ambient temp which may raise the temp on top of the substrate. This is one of the reasons that I like newspaper as a substrate...it doesn't insulate a whole lot, so I don't have an issue.

Necropsies: A necropsy is a good idea if an animal dies for unknown reasons. Probably most of the time you will find out that it was something non-contagious and non-preventable, and in that case all you will gain is the peace of mind of knowing. But in other cases, you may gain information that will be useful in keeping the rest of your collection healthy.

To get a necropsy done, you should get the animal's body to the vet ASAP. Refrigerate it until then. Do not freeze. I don't know exactly how long you have, but just based on what I see with things like chicken meat in my refrigerator, I would guess that Skiploder's comment of 3-4 days as a maximum is probably accurate.

The cost of a necropsy is going to vary widely, just like all vet services. Since I have never needed one, I have never thought to ask how much one would cost. I'd guess it might be comparable to an office visit, since I think it would represent a roughly comparable amount of the vet's time. Obviously any tissue samples that are sent out for lab work are going to increase the cost.

I'm really sorry for your loss, I hope you feel better soon.

Well I got my refund today. The breeder didn't seem to know what went wrong either. Said something in shipping must have occurred.


Sad to say I don't think I'll ever know how ting died, money is to tight what with the water heater breaking and my mom needing financial help. It ate up the emergency money I normally like to have stashed around. I ended up missing my window on the necropsy. If I had payed for it I wouldn't have had money for ramen and gas to get to and from work this week.

To all of you who wanted to know how this happen believe me I am there with you. It wasn't an easy decision to make. But I need to get to work.

I do think if I ever have another snake that gapes like that again though I'm not hesitating to make a bee line for the vet.


I'll clean out the cage tomorrow, It will be a sad affair. I didn't have the poor little guy very long but he was a snake that I had dreamed of owning.


I nearly took them up on the offer to replace him, but the wound hadn't healed I didn't feel comfortable yet.


My confidence as a snake keeper is riddled with what seems like a 100 bullets. I am doubting myself and every move I make now. My friend told me to get back on the horse. He's seen me doing my research every night, and staying home to make sure temps are just right instead of going out.


But I wonder if I am just to dumb or lucky to get it right. Still maybe he is right. Maybe those empty cages would look could with a couple of corns in them. Or maybe I'll save that money up for Boaphile rack for my BP, so I could add another this summer.


I wanna be a good keeper. I'm praying for wisdom and confidence.


P.S. Don't let my experience sour anyone on Thai Red Mountain snakes or Pro Exotics. Someday I wanna do business with them again. But not until this wound heals. I'll own a coxi again one day, God willing he will be healthy and long lived. And I'll be able to provide for him what I was unable to for ting.

R.I.P Little Dude

You cant blame yourself for this. Everything you have said leads me to believe you were doing everything the right way. It must have been some freak accident. Possibly during the shipping process. There is no way to know. Like another poster said, these things do sometimes just happen. Dont let it discourage you. The truth is, if everything with the husbandry was correct, the snake may have just been compromised in some way. It may not have lived a long healthy life anyway. There is no way to know but you cant always assume that you could have prevented it. I lost a new BP years ago when I brought he and a female home as hatchlings. They showed no signs of being sick. They both ate very well and within 2 weeks the male was dead. I had the female treated for various things as a safeguard. She was found to be dehydrated but that was the only sign of illness. She is now 7 years old but I still wish the male had lived. He was my favorite of 2.

Some animals fail to thrive. Some fail to show true signs of illness. Some are unable to get through mild stresses. Etc etc.. You will get another at some point. Once you have many reptiles if you lose one you cant let it burdon you when you have so many others to take care of. When you see your other pets thriving and happy you will realise its worth it to always keep these animals as pets.

Thanks foschi that lifts my spirits.

I won't let the stop me from doing something thats made me so happy. I guess my friend was right about getting back on the horse after I fall off.

I agree the best way to get over the lost or at least lessen it in pack on you is to aquire an new friend. I know when I had one I had rescued years ago ( par of a pair ) I found the one a home and with in a month the other snake had died out of the blue. it was active at night ate sleep and bitten me the night before and igot up inthe morning it seemed fine came home a couple hours later and it was dead. Mom and I could only gues ( back then befoer i knew much about snakes period ) that it died from being left behind. Now asw I look backI am shocked they had not died a lot sooner than when I gotten them. I was keeping the snakes ( 4 at the time ) in acedar cage on pine shaving and below the temp requirements ( mainly at room temp and my room gets cool during the winter. as low as 45 degrees ).. I had kept them for almost 3 years when I had been asked if I would be willing to give one up to a person I knew son.


I soon aquired 3 more ball python rescue and then slim ( red tail boa) from under a porch hte 3 other snakes were ball pythons. I lost one with in 3 day was in su poor shape and theother I fatten up ( by then I gotten net access and was learnnig more basic(proper care) and am not up to 18 snakes and they mainly bps lol..I am loving every minute of it even the bite are fun now for me ( onlyif I cna get the dang reflex acion under control before i end up ripping some poor bp head off as i yank my hand back.

It's good to see that Pro Exotics is living up to their stellar reputation. I think most of us would have been suprised if they hadn't.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

It's good to see that Pro Exotics is living up to their stellar reputation. I think most of us would have been suprised if they hadn't.

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Yeah I was sad to turn them down on there replacement offer. I just need some time to get my confidence back I guess. Work with a corn or two and keep on with my BP.