Worst news ever :-(

My friend's first ball python, an '09 spider female from J Kobylka, died last night. As far as we could tell it was 100% healthy when we got her in. The hot spot was 90, the cool spot 75, the ambient temperature was 80. She was misted every day, the humidity bounced around from 70% to 45% right before misting. My friend loved this animal and her care was meticulous, this really shouldn't have happened.

She was showing obvious signs of an RI for the past week or so, so my friend took her to the vet 3 days ago and spent over 400 bucks for tests and the medicine. My friend was told to soak her for 20 minutes every day and inject the antibiotics every 72 hours. The next day she got a call from the vet who said the anti-biotic was the right one and the snake's future looked good.

Last night while soaking her, the snake started convulsing, wheezing, and emptying the contents of its stomach. She went limp and stopped breathing, but came back again. My friend made me come over because she was so traumatized. I told her I'd read about another person's snake doing the same thing because of constipation, but I wasn't sure because I hadn't seen it happen. I left and a few hours later, the snake was dead.

She only had her for about 6 months. I feel so guilty because I encouraged her to get a snake in the first place and introduced her to ball pythons. RIP Spiffy :'-(

Has your friend contacted Justin?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Has your friend contacted Justin?

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No, I actually just found out about 10 minutes ago myself.

6 months after a sale I wouldnt expect a breeder to offer up any compensation.

She said it had an RI that was more than likely induced under her care.

Terrible news to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Ash

No, I actually just found out about 10 minutes ago myself.

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Well I should have been more specific I meant did she contacted him at all during the whole situation to get Justin's advice?

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

6 months after a sale I wouldnt expect a breeder to offer up any compensation.

She said it had an RI that was more than likely induced under her care.

Terrible news to say the least.

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To be clear I wasn't suggesting any form of compensation was due, especially after 6 months. I am just curious to know if she attempted to contact the breeder at any point when she noticed something was 'off'.

I agree that is Terrible news and I send my condolences to your friend. I've lost snakes before, it isn't any fun.

Oh I'm so sorry to hear this! Is she interested at all in getting a necropsy done to find out the cause of her death? I wonder if she was having a negative reaction to the prescribed treatment?

:(

That's a horrible thing for anyone to go through.

Are they going to have a necropsy done?

Only things I can think of is to ask about what the anti-biotic was and how was it injected. Just in case it was supposed to be intramuscular but when your friend injected they either hit a vein or went through to the body cavity or internal organ ( not as far fetched as you think with a tiny 09 :weirdface ).

Only other question is what temp was the water she used for soaking?


dr del

Sounds as if it was an Aminoglycoside, which in my experience is well tolerated, but can lead to renal toxicity if not well hydrated. It is however now supposed to be used on animals under a year of age.

SOUNDS to me as if the animal was too far along and essentially drowned in its own fluids, or was able to inhale some water while soaking due to being weak.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Oh I'm so sorry to hear this! Is she interested at all in getting a necropsy done to find out the cause of her death? I wonder if she was having a negative reaction to the prescribed treatment?

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I'm so sorry to hear of your friends loss.

I can tell you from my experience that spiders sometimes have a harder time dealing with RI. I think it's due to the neurological problems they have.

Snakes have a slow metabolism, and it sounds like he just didn't have enough time on the antibiotic for it to start helping.

OMg....that is terrible....I am so sorry that happened to her.

Can you find out exactly what this vet prescribed and exactly what the vet said to do? $400 and the snake dies. This is no surprise to Big Gunns at all. Although sometimes you can do everything right and for whatever reason the snake doesn't make it.....usually they will if treated correctly.

If the vet called and said that the meds were right, it looks like he/she did a culture which is a very good thing. BG would like to hear all the facts so he can get to the bottom of this. BG hates this kind of thing after an animal goes to the vet and then dies quickly. It happens all the time.:taz:

So sorry to hear! Sounds like it was either too late to be treated, or the treatment wasn't optimal for the snake, what did the vet give?

Either way, I'm so sorry to hear that it ended badly even when you and your friend tried to do everything to help.:(

Necropsy!

I would also suggest a necropsy. They are not extremely expensive for just the visual which is always the starting point.(my vet charges $45 with out cultures or samles sent off) If it was something big like fluid in the lungs or "constapation" this is visible with out testing.

Wow Ash, I'm sorry to hear about this!

Sounds like your vet was right to do the culture and prescribe the antibiotic. Like others have said, snakes have a very slow metabolism and sometimes the medication doesn't even have time to make a big impact before it succums to the illness.

One thing that has me baffled is the vet recommendation that she soak the snake for 20 mins daily. From my expeirence (not vet school) this is illogical and bad advice. RI is dangerous because it inhibits the snakes ability to breath. Putting the snake into the tub of water while it has RI, is extremely dangerous and exacerbates the problem. The fact that the snake died during one these sessions does not surprise me!

Ash if you or your friend wish to call and talk through all that happened, please do. My cell: 706-599-4850

Justin

A snake soaking in water doesn't have its breathing inhibited. The increased humidity and hydration helps thin the mucous secretions so they can be expelled.

But a snake with an RI that goes into convulsions and dies suddenly--I would have a necropsy done. You want to make sure it wasn't something nastier than just a bacterial RI.

Wow, I am really sorry. I am beside myself right now.:(
I recently was planning on adding to my collection, but I had a male that I had to move to the QT room, from what I thought was an RI. So I cancelled my purchase from JKR, I would have been heart struck if it would have been me. I do hope your friend doesn't give up on this beautiful hobby of ours, and she can find peace in all of this.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

A snake soaking in water doesn't have its breathing inhibited. The increased humidity and hydration helps thin the mucous secretions so they can be expelled.

But a snake with an RI that goes into convulsions and dies suddenly--I would have a necropsy done. You want to make sure it wasn't something nastier than just a bacterial RI.

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I'm not sure I understand how putting snake in the water would help break down it's mucus, especially for 20 minutes at a time. In fact my vets have actually recommended temporarily removing water bowls for RIs...

If they want the mucus to break down with the aid of moisture you would need to raise the humidity, not soak them. IDK about your snakes but mine don't react well to being placed in water they didn't willingly crawl into.

I am not a vet or a vet student, but I have had my share of RIs and I'm actually dealing with 1 right now due to my Albino pushing himself a little too far from breeding. These conditions just don't sound like a normal RI or advice that I would expect my vet to give me.

Stories like this are heart breakers. Everytime I hear of a story about vets and ball pythons dieing, I really just wonder to myself if these vets actually know anything.

In this case, I would have to say that soaking the snake in luke-warm water owuld be a good thing (as long as you monitored the snakes head to keep it above the water) because like someone above me said, it would have thinned out the mucus.

but yeah you should have a necropsy done.... You already payed $400, whats another $40? Find out why the poor thing died, and try your best to never let it happen again. It's really the only thing that can be done from here.

This really upsets me. Hearing about any animals suffering like that just rips me apart inside.

I hope you get through this, and eventually get back into the hobby. :please:

Sadness :'( So sorry.

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

Wow Ash, I'm sorry to hear about this!

Sounds like your vet was right to do the culture and prescribe the antibiotic. Like others have said, snakes have a very slow metabolism and sometimes the medication doesn't even have time to make a big impact before it succums to the illness.

One thing that has me baffled is the vet recommendation that she soak the snake for 20 mins daily. From my expeirence (not vet school) this is illogical and bad advice. RI is dangerous because it inhibits the snakes ability to breath. Putting the snake into the tub of water while it has RI, is extremely dangerous and exacerbates the problem. The fact that the snake died during one these sessions does not surprise me!

Ash if you or your friend wish to call and talk through all that happened, please do. My cell: 706-599-4850

Justin

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Ah...BG was just on his way back here to say something similar.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

A snake soaking in water doesn't have its breathing inhibited. The increased humidity and hydration helps thin the mucous secretions so they can be expelled.

But a snake with an RI that goes into convulsions and dies suddenly--I would have a necropsy done. You want to make sure it wasn't something nastier than just a bacterial RI.

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Big Gunns is gonna take a wild guess(not really he's pretty sure)on what happened to this snake. It drowned. If you're drowning you'll start "convulsing" all around. You'll also try and expel everything from your insides just like this snake did.

The Vet probably said to soak it to make sure it was well hydrated, but will a smaller snake, you need to keep an eye on them....especially a sick one...and even more especially a stupid Spider. They don't know what's up or down sometimes.

BG suspects that this animal drowned. NO...he's pretty sure that's what happened. It may have had an RI, but what happened when it was being soaked tells BG it drowned.(or suffocated because it could not breath correctly in the water...same thing really)

I am so sorry for your friend's loss. I hope this doesn't turn her off our hobby.

sorry to hear of your friends snake!

I could be wrong, but I thought that a snake with RI should be treated and put on higher temps and to be kept pretty dry. Im no expert or vet though.

Very sad news :( Sorry to hear this and my heart goes out to your friend :(

To answer everybody's questions (I'm not gonna go through and quote cuz there were so many)

- My friend went into credit card debt to try to save its life. I've spoken to her about a necropsy already and she doesn't think it's worth it. Either way it's dead now.

- The medicine prescribed was "25 mg per ml amikacin" and the prescribed dose was 1.5 cc's every 72 hours. The snake didn't even make it to her second dose. It died at around 2 AM, the day the next dose was supposed to be administered. The first dose was given by the vet tech in the lower portion of the snake's body, the vet tech said to do it there to avoid hitting hearts/lungs etc, although she said the needle was very short and it would be hard to do.

- The vet did a culture, a blood test, another test where she looks at a sample of the mucus under a microscope. She told us to soak in warm water every day for 20 minutes, raise the heat in the enclosure and give the meds. (I was under the impression that RI's are caused in part by low humidity, so it seemed logical to me to soak. Also the antibiotics would do less harm to the snake if it were well hydrated.) She had called back the next day regarding the blood test and it was good news, she said the bacterial infection was only in the lungs and hadn't spread, and that the amikacin was a good choice of medicine to fight it off.

- We didn't get in touch with Justin while this was happening because we figured all he could tell us was to go to the vet, and we'd already made an appointment. Also, we are confident he had nothing to do with the illness. I for one am certain that it was healthy when it got to her house. After about two months of having the snake, we let her spider come into contact with my snakes for a photo, and my snakes are still 100% healthy, which tells me that her snake wasn't sick back then. Either that or I'm extremely lucky.

Thanks, everybody, for your sympathy. This was really traumatic for her, she was very shaken by it. :-(

What's interesting to me is that the snake only missed two meals before it died. I always thought that if a snake was even slightly distressed, it would go off the feed. If it had stopped eating earlier, we might have taken it to the vet sooner and this all could have been nipped in the bud. It's awfully frustrating.

On second thought, I might pay for the necropsy myself. I'm a little curious as to what happened, because it makes no sense to me that given it's care, it would have died. Depends on how much it costs, though.

Never easy to lose a loved animal. I hope this doesn't discourage a love of reptiles for her.


Like the others I'd encorage a necropsy. Atleast she's have answers.


I didn't know certain morphs had unique problems. Anywhere I can go to learn more?

Big Gunns sees a problem. Let's see who else caught it. Looks to BG that at least one mistake was made.

"The first dose was given by the vet tech in the lower portion of the snake's body, the vet tech said to do it there to avoid hitting hearts/lungs etc"

Injections are to be given in the first 1/3 of the body or the kidneys will filter the medicine and make it ineffective. Unfortunately the injections didn't have much of a chance because of this vet mistake. :(

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

"The first dose was given by the vet tech in the lower portion of the snake's body, the vet tech said to do it there to avoid hitting hearts/lungs etc"

Injections are to be given in the first 1/3 of the body or the kidneys will filter the medicine and make it ineffective. Unfortunately the injections didn't have much of a chance because of this vet mistake. :(

Justin

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You see...this is how you tell who the pros are. Justin got it.:gj: It's BG's understanding that giving a shot in the lower portion is harmful to the snake(good vet told him). Although BG still believes why it died, giving the shot there didn't do it any favors.

i'm very sorry for your friend and for you to keep the faith and tell your friend to keep on truckin get another snake later when she gets over the tragic loss

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Big Gunns sees a problem. Let's see who else caught it. Looks to BG that at least one mistake was made.

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Ok I'm Not an expert... not even vet tech but from My research I know that amikacin for humans should be dosed in 15 mg/kg/day dose if she give her 1.5 cc 25mg/ml that's give us 37mg on the single dose.... for one kilo!! and i don't think that that poor spider was that big...
In side effect of this drug You can read:

.....Other manifestations of neurotoxicity may include numbness, skin tingling, muscle twitching, and convulsions.....

.....Patients developing cochlear damage may not have symptoms during therapy to warn them of developing eighth-nerve toxicity, and total or partial irreversible bilateral deafness may occur after the drug has been discontinued. Aminoglycoside-induced ototoxicity is usually irreversible.

Aminoglycosides are potentially nephrotoxic. The risk of nephrotoxicity is greater in patients with impaired renal function and in those who receive high doses or prolonged therapy.

Neuromuscular blockade and respiratory paralysis have been reported following parenteral injection,

And That's are human warning....

Maybe I'm wrong... Hope I'm wrong... But for me looks like vet make a mistake....


I'm really sorry about Your friend lose I know the feeling... I know from autopsy... :(

Sorry to hear about this. Let us know if the cause of death is found out.

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

Ok I'm Not an expert... not even vet tech but from My research I know that amikacin for humans should be dosed in 15 mg/kg/day dose if she give her 1.5 cc 25mg/ml that's give us 37mg on the single dose.... for one kilo!! and i don't think that that poor spider was that big...
In side effect of this drug You can read:

.....Other manifestations of neurotoxicity may include numbness, skin tingling, muscle twitching, and convulsions.....

.....Patients developing cochlear damage may not have symptoms during therapy to warn them of developing eighth-nerve toxicity, and total or partial irreversible bilateral deafness may occur after the drug has been discontinued. Aminoglycoside-induced ototoxicity is usually irreversible.

Aminoglycosides are potentially nephrotoxic. The risk of nephrotoxicity is greater in patients with impaired renal function and in those who receive high doses or prolonged therapy.

Neuromuscular blockade and respiratory paralysis have been reported following parenteral injection,

And That's are human warning....

Maybe I'm wrong... Hope I'm wrong... But for me looks like vet make a mistake....


I'm really sorry about Your friend lose I know the feeling... I know from autopsy... :(

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You are right. I've been going off the assumption that Ash meant to put .15cc, which is still more than most vets recommend.

Justin

Thank you guys so much for letting me know about the side effects of this medicine and the thing about the dangers of injecting into the lower portion of the body. If the drug was that strong and her kidneys were likely to filter it out, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it caused kidney failure, or something of the like. I think I was right about what I told you, my friend was reading straight off the bottle while I typed it out. I'm going to go back to the vet with this information and see if I can get her to refund the money. I'll post an update when things develop.

Correction: I misunderstood her, there were 1.5 ml in the whole bottle. The prescribed dose was 0.03 cc's once ever 72 hours for 2 weeks. Sorry! I knew that sounded a bit funky.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Correction: I misunderstood her, there were 1.5 ml in the whole bottle. The prescribed dose was 0.03 cc's once ever 72 hours for 2 weeks. Sorry! I knew that sounded a bit funky.

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That sounds more like a correct dosage then. Still have the issue with giving the shot in the wrong location and the soaking. Talking to you a bit ago, sounds like you're going to take this up further with the vet. Let us know how it goes from here.

Justin

I'm really sorry about your friends BP, thats really sad, I hope she is ok...Is she thinking about getting another one?

How upsetting! It's always hard to lose a pet, especially after the time and care to take it to the vet, and treat it. I've lost a couple even after the good, hard fight efforts of the vet and me. :tears::tears:

I, like the others, hopes this hasn't turned her away from the hobby of keeping these wonderful animals!! When her heart has healed, it would be good for her to get another pet.

But, I'm a little concerned.......Ambient cool side was only 80*? Doesn't that strike others as a wee bit cool for a ball? Especially for an '09??? Borderline, I admit, but (especially with an RI) chances are good the snake got too cool, for too long as temps always normally fluctuate a bit over time. I'd personally prefer having it a bit warmer to start with, so if it should cool down, it's not too cold.
( But like I said...IMO )

Condolences to your friend!

The reptile vets I've had (all three of them) also recommend soaking for a snake with an RI, if it shows any signs of dehydration. Following their advice, I haven't lost a one. The snakes always appear to feel better afterward.

I also absorbed a passing comment that the positioning of an injection isn't actually as important as they used to think it was--in other words, injecting into the back half of the snake isn't seriously riskier than injecting into the front half.
I do not think the vet is to blame for this loss.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Correction: I misunderstood her, there were 1.5 ml in the whole bottle. The prescribed dose was 0.03 cc's once ever 72 hours for 2 weeks. Sorry! I knew that sounded a bit funky.

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Doses should have been for 3 weeks. Injections should have been about 1/3 the way down the animal (from the head) and in the side under the skin. Otherwise it will be flushed out of the body.

Not to bring up an old thread, but let BG ask everyone this. If the snake was a human that was placed in the water and started "convulsing"(would be thrashing in a human) in the water. Then when you brought the human out of the water they started spitting up their guts....what would you think happened? This snake probably got water in it's lungs and basically drowned. It may not have happened right away, but that's what BG believes happened.

For anyone that has accidentally got liquid in a snakes lungs instead of it's stomach will tell you. They will start "convulsing" all around and try to expel it from their lungs. If they can't...they'll die within a few hours.

Small snakes are kinda dumb(Spiders are the dumbest) when it's comes to being soaked. Be careful everyone.

BG has said it before...and he'll say it again. Make sure you find a qualified Vet when your snake is sick. Although this Vet wasn't the worst, there were mistakes made. If you'd like to know, BG doesn't really like the idea of soaking a sick baby ball. Maybe an adult boa for a leeetle while, but not a baby ball.

If the snake is dehydrated like Wing said....maybe...but not otherwise.


Sorry to bring this back up Justin. It just needed a leeetle more of BG's expertise.:gj:

There is new research that shows that injection site is not as important as we used to believe, most young vets don’t even worry about the whole bottom third issue, which older vets always warn about.

Soaking is the fastest way to hydrate a dehydrated snake, snakes do not have a large subcutaneous layer like dogs and cats do so SQ fluids are not effective, and veins are very hard to hit let alone place a catheter in so I.V's are virtually impossible for a general vet to do on a snake that size. There are some zoo vets and exotic specialist that can do it however they are very expensive and hard to find.

Amikacin can cause renal failure but it is also a great drug that most reptile RI's are susceptible to, that dose however was correct and should not have caused any further problems unless the renal function was compromised in the first place.

I am very sorry for your loss however I don’t believe the vet is at fault in anyway. It just sucks that it was your friend’s snake that didn’t pull through with a decent treatment plan. If you would like to research anything I said feel free to look up the info on www.vin.com if you have vet or a tech that can get you access.

When I had a vet visit for an RI in my Kingsnake, he had told me to soak the snake every other day to help with the RI. He also did say warm bath, not hot water. So I don't think soaking could have been bad for the snake, but the snake could have gotten some water in the lungs.

Though, since the snake was showing signs 1-2 weeks before the vet visit, it could have quickly turned into pneumonia during that time since reptiles go downhill quickly from being sick. The mucus in the lungs could have made the snake try to spit everything up but it couldn't so the snake drowned in the mucus in the lungs.

Just my thought on it, but I doubt it was pneumonia that could've killed the snake.

I think it depends on what "a soak" means. There is a big difference between a 1/2 inch of water that the snake sits in or enough that the snake needs to "swim"...

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Originally Posted by David Green

I think it depends on what "a soak" means. There is a big difference between a 1/2 inch of water that the snake sits in or enough that the snake needs to "swim"...

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BG meant to put this in his post. How deep was the water it was soaking in?

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Originally Posted by boasandballs

Doses should have been for 3 weeks. Injections should have been about 1/3 the way down the animal (from the head) and in the side under the skin. Otherwise it will be flushed out of the body.

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This is not entirely true. Some medications need to be injected IM (intermuscularly) or IC (inside the actual body cavity)

Good explanation Ed!

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

This is not entirely true. Some medications need to be injected IM (intermuscularly) or IC (inside the actual body cavity)

Good explanation Ed!

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I'm Lynn
Thanks anyways. :)

Im really sorry for your friend's lost. But after reading all of the details, Im inclining to what BG had explained. The administration of the drug may be an issue, but it wont easily affect or rather even kill the snake that fast. Plus the fact that spiders do have some equilibrium issues sometimes, it can be a contributing factor to a snake soaking in water, w/ difficulties in breathing.