Providing heat?

I was reading my copy of The Savannah Monitor Lizard and I got to the section where it talks about heating. I was shocked to see it said to never use a heat sorce that does not also provide light. I continued reading and could not find any explination as to why. My entire life I've used a CHE/UTH combination to provide heat for all of my reptiles, and another source for the light depending on the reps needs. I use the CHE for the basking heat, and combined with a UTH the overall heat gradiant has always been in the proper range. Heck I've used this set up on my iguanas thier whole lives and they both are 7 years old next month hehe, fit and healthy according to thier doc.

Does anyone know why they would say to never use a heat source that doesn't also provide a light?

Thanks for the help!

I have never heard that, nor would I have any explanation as to why. I do use under the tank heat mats, but they are running with thermostats, just like how you would have it with snakes. As well, I do have heat and UV lights running also.

Sounds like we have the same set up. Good makes me feel better. I've been keep reptiles for 20 years and this is the first I've ever read about that!

Thanks Bsash!

There is no way to get proper basking temps for monitors with UTHs...

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Originally Posted by Gregg Madden

There is no way to get proper basking temps for monitors with UTHs...

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he's not trying to.....he is using the UTH to create substrate temp and help with ambient...


His basking is provided by a CHE.

I'm not trying to get a basking spot with the under the tank heat mat, just need a little one to keep the substrate a little warmer. All of my basking and UV is through lights.

The idea of not heating the soil substrate is that if the monitor wants to thermoregulate and provide itself with cooler temperatures it can dig down.

Monitors are basking animals, no kind of regular heater is needed.

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Originally Posted by allergenic

Monitors are basking animals, no kind of regular heater is needed.

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:gj:
If you have your monitors set up properly with a good basking area in a proper caging unit, you will not need to heat up the substrate from the bottom with a UTH or heat mat to get proper ambient air temps...

And like allergenic said, you want the ground to be cool... This is how they thermoregulate... They need many different gradients to regulate their body temperature throughout the day...

What is your cage set-up???

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Originally Posted by Gregg Madden

:gj:
If you have your monitors set up properly with a good basking area in a proper caging unit, you will not need to heat up the substrate from the bottom with a UTH or heat mat to get proper ambient air temps...

And like allergenic said, you want the ground to be cool... This is how they thermoregulate... They need many different gradients to regulate their body temperature throughout the day...

What is your cage set-up???

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I run heat pads on my ackie setup because if I don't, in the winter my foot deep substrate will reach temps in the 50's regardless that the ambient is in the 80's-90's. Heat generated by lights or overhead sources only force heat downward about 6 inches into moist soil. Since ideal temps for most lizards is no lower than 70's....I would say that giving them such cold substrate is a bad idea....and yes they seek it out if given a chance.

I didn't intend to cause any confusion here, I just wonder if anyone knew why the book would say what is does.

As far as my set up, it just depends on which reptile. My iguanas and BPs have a UTH to help keep the ambiant temp up at night. For all my reptiles I use CHE to provide the basking spot heat and over all temp. For lights I use different repti glo depending on each individual needs.

the set up I have for my Savannah is a 3x3x3 foot enclosure made of wood with a light bar and 2 CHE with about 19in of substrate. The enclosure is smaller because he's not quite a foot in size yet.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I run heat pads on my ackie setup because if I don't, in the winter my foot deep substrate will reach temps in the 50's regardless that the ambient is in the 80's-90's.

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Not sure how your substrate temps can be so low... Where are your cages set up... Something is not adding up...

When I had my animals set up in the basement, I had to build a room in the basement so the ambient air in the room where the cages were never got lower than 80 degrees...

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Originally Posted by Gregg Madden

Not sure how your substrate temps can be so low... Where are your cages set up... Something is not adding up...

When I had my animals set up in the basement, I had to build a room in the basement so the ambient air in the room where the cages were never got lower than 80 degrees...

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My snake building is set to 76 degrees. The floor, on a cold night, will get down into the low 60s.

So if the enclosure was set directly on the floor, I could easily see how those temps could get that low.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

I run heat pads on my ackie setup because if I don't, in the winter my foot deep substrate will reach temps in the 50's regardless that the ambient is in the 80's-90's. Heat generated by lights or overhead sources only force heat downward about 6 inches into moist soil. Since ideal temps for most lizards is no lower than 70's....I would say that giving them such cold substrate is a bad idea....and yes they seek it out if given a chance.

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This is the same reason I use the under the tank heat mat. I understand the regulation of temperatures, but I would just think that the soil is way too cold. Either way, the temps I keep the under the tank heat mats on is 75, so it isn't really hot, just enough to keep the dirt at 75 as well.

I do keep my cages on the floor, I don't have anything big enough to put them on, but they are also inside in my bed room. I think that my problem is that I have central air. So when the heat is running, its warm, but when it goes off, it is right back to cold again. Also my house is pretty old so it is probably poorly insulated too.

Ok here's a new one to me too, from the same book. The book says when providing a basking area THE SURFACE under the basking spot should reach 145 degrees. Umm what?! even the hottest heat rocks I've ever seen never reach 120 degrees, and we all know never to use heat rocks for our reptiles, always over head heat. 145 degree basking area seems insanely hot for any reptile. I mean if you think about the natural habitat for a savannah the hottest recorded temp was only like 125 degrees and the tree branches, dirt or whatever they may be laying on would be cooler than that. So if I provide a basking area with 95-100 degrees would that be sufficant?

Thanks as always for the info.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

Ok here's a new one to me too, from the same book. The book says when providing a basking area THE SURFACE under the basking spot should reach 145 degrees. Umm what?!

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That's correct.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

even the hottest heat rocks I've ever seen never reach 120 degrees, and we all know never to use heat rocks for our reptiles, always over head heat.

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Yes, that's correct also. Belly heat is not the same as basking heat.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

145 degree basking area seems insanely hot for any reptile. I mean if you think about the natural habitat for a savannah the hottest recorded temp was only like 125 degrees

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You are confusing air ("ambient") temps and surface temps.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

and the tree branches, dirt or whatever they may be laying on would be cooler than that.

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They will actually be hotter, as they are directly in the sun. Have you ever walked on pavement in your bare feet in the middle of summer? It may only be 90 degrees out (lower than our body temp), but the pavement is scalding.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

So if I provide a basking area with 95-100 degrees would that be sufficant?

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No, it will cause your monitor to be unable to properly metabolize its meals, and become sick and lethargic.

Monitors need at least a 130 to 140 degree hot spot... They will bask in these areas for short periods of time through out the day...

Even other reptiles use very hot basking spots...

I have caught garters, corns, milks, pines, and other colubrids basking in temps well into the 90's and sometimes in the 100 degree range... I always bring a temp gun when I go herping...

These high basking spots are very important for digestion and for metabolism functions...

Many care sheets you read on the internet are shakey at best... Many are full of out dated, regurgitated info, and lots of misconceptions...

Here's what the book says, I'm quoting it so I may get in trouble for it, "...and hot spots with surface temperatures up to 145 degrees F."*

Now am I miss reading that? Is it not saying to have the surface in the basking part of the enclosure at 145 degrees? So I guess my confusion comes in when a heat rock get to 120 degrees but the basking area platform gets to 145 degrees. Heat rocks are bad because they burn, but the wood platform under my basking spot is at 145 degree should burn them too right?
So what is the best way to provide those high heats? I was going to use a 150 watt CHE in the basking area. With out any heat source set up now the ambiant air temp is 78 degrees all around. I haven't set up the basking area yet because I'm trying to get all this info squared.

I'm just trying to get all this information straight before I got and buy a monitor. I want what's best for him/her obviously. There's just so much conflicting information out there.

*The Savannah Monitor Lizard, The truth about Varanus Exanthematicus

I keep my basking spots at 120 degrees, I use huge artificial aquarium trees and rocks that are easy enough for my Savannah monitor to climb. The only reason I don't use real wood and rocks is because it cuts down on the chance that I will get mites. I have had a mite free house for the past 6 years and plan on keeping it that way. Honestly, the last time I had mites was because of a real log that I bought from a pet store, not any of my animals.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

Here's what the book says, I'm quoting it so I may get in trouble for it, "...and hot spots with surface temperatures up to 145 degrees F."*

Now am I miss reading that? Is it not saying to have the surface in the basking part of the enclosure at 145 degrees? So I guess my confusion comes in when a heat rock get to 120 degrees but the basking area platform gets to 145 degrees. Heat rocks are bad because they burn, but the wood platform under my basking spot is at 145 degree should burn them too right?
So what is the best way to provide those high heats? I was going to use a 150 watt CHE in the basking area. With out any heat source set up now the ambiant air temp is 78 degrees all around. I haven't set up the basking area yet because I'm trying to get all this info squared.

I'm just trying to get all this information straight before I got and buy a monitor. I want what's best for him/her obviously. There's just so much conflicting information out there.

*The Savannah Monitor Lizard, The truth about Varanus Exanthematicus

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I keep my surface temperature at 120 degrees, I honestly can't tell you why a heat rock is any different, I wish I could. What I can tell you is that I have never had a burn from my basking spot, but have had them from heat rocks.

When I rescued my Nile monitor, he/ she had such a bad burn from a heat rock that I have to keep all of his/ her temps on the low side or it really irritates the scar on its belly, and tail. My vet told me to keep his/ her basking spots at no more that 100 degrees. I guess it could also vary on how sensitive your animal is, or if it has any weak spots such as scars like my Nile monitor.

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Originally Posted by Gregg Madden

Not sure how your substrate temps can be so low... Where are your cages set up... Something is not adding up...

When I had my animals set up in the basement, I had to build a room in the basement so the ambient air in the room where the cages were never got lower than 80 degrees...

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you answered your own question

your solution was to build an entire room....and heat the air which in turn heated surrounding matter (Ie: convection/conduction)

My solution is just using pin point heat and allowing conduction to take its place....

I took a look at my BP, Bearded dragon and Iguana set-ups they are all pretty close to the same with slight variations. I think with my current set up I'll actually achieve better temps than I though. Allergenic made me second guess some things and I'll agree with him to a point. The ambiant air is about 95-98 but the basking surface, according to the digi thermo my mom uses to cook with, was 109 for my BP and his set up is alittle different. I'll keep tweaking with the Monitor set up before I get him and hopefully it'll work out. Thanks everyone for all the help!

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

I took a look at my BP, Bearded dragon and Iguana set-ups they are all pretty close to the same with slight variations. I think with my current set up I'll actually achieve better temps than I though. Allergenic made me second guess some things and I'll agree with him to a point. The ambiant air is about 95-98 but the basking surface, according to the digi thermo my mom uses to cook with, was 109 for my BP and his set up is alittle different. I'll keep tweaking with the Monitor set up before I get him and hopefully it'll work out. Thanks everyone for all the help!

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your iguana needs much more humidity and temps than the other 2 so hopefully their set ups are not very similar...

I know it was just a general statement so I didn't have to type all day hehe, he's well taken care of, he'll be 7 years old next month, well alittle older, but I'll have had him 7 years next month.

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Originally Posted by Jhussey

I took a look at my BP, Bearded dragon and Iguana set-ups they are all pretty close to the same with slight variations.....
The ambiant air is about 95-98 but the basking surface, according to the digi thermo my mom uses to cook with, was 109 for my BP and his set up is alittle different.

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This is one of the major problems with the advice given by the pet industry. There is a misconception that all lizards can be kept in the same manner, at the same heats.

There is a guy on these boards named Dave/Crocdoc, who lives in Australia. He has commented on the forums that when he goes out in the bush to observe monitors, he notices that during the absolute hottest part of the day, monitors are active when not many other reptiles are. Bearded dragons are generally under cover.

So the idea that a bearded dragon, which will make use of a lower temp basking area and will even mouth gape at higher temps, is at all indicative of the temps a monitor needs to be kept at, is simply misinformation fed by the companies who want to sell 100W Zoo Med basking bulbs.

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

you answered your own question

your solution was to build an entire room....and heat the air which in turn heated surrounding matter (Ie: convection/conduction)

My solution is just using pin point heat and allowing conduction to take its place....

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Yeah but they still need the cooler substrate temps to thermoregulate...

I feel many people get into monitors without knowing how to properly house them through no falt of their own... There is a ton of misinformation out there and too many people who think it is ok to house them in AGAs... LOL

Another solution to help raise substrate temps without using a heat mat is to get the cage off the floor...

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Originally Posted by Gregg Madden

Yeah but they still need the cooler substrate temps to thermoregulate...

I feel many people get into monitors without knowing how to properly house them through no falt of their own... There is a ton of misinformation out there and too many people who think it is ok to house them in AGAs... LOL

Another solution to help raise substrate temps without using a heat mat is to get the cage off the floor...

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that works as long as your ambient of the room is high enough to give desired needs....

a heat mat will give you whatever temp you set it at.

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Originally Posted by Gregg Madden

Another solution to help raise substrate temps without using a heat mat is to get the cage off the floor...

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Cinderblocks. Circle gets the square.