Difference between lesser platinum & butter

Hi,

Can some help me out please with these questions.

what is the difference between a lesser platinum & a butter? or are they the same morph with just a different name?

What lines of lessers are there?
What lines of butters are there?

Thanks

You just opened a can of worms....

My personal opinion is the same as many others. They are the same allele but a different line, similar to Black Pastels and Cinnamons. They each have similar characteristics and and combos, but the Super is the same. While still having some differences.

I own the butter in AZ and rabernet owns the lesser in GA. lol...sorry couldn't resist

It is really what you like best.....as they pretty much do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by hEireann Pythons

or are they the same morph with just a different name?

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I have to believe they are the same morph with different names until proven otherwise.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I have to believe they are the same morph with different names until proven otherwise.

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I can tell you right now the chances of that actually happening any time in the near future are slim to none, though it is something I would be completely fascinated with if people actually began to do genetic mapping of Python regius. I do believe they are the same mutation though, as they are impossible to visually distinguish. By this, I mean that any variations in the two mutations can be accounted for by variations in the colour and pattern of the wild-type. Where you can definitively see that some of the other members of the BEL complex are different mutations on the same allele (mojaves, russo hets, phantoms), you simply cannot distinguish between butters and lessers, which is enough to lead me to believe they are the same mutation on the same allele.

I believe that they are the same thing - just like pastels are pastels, just different lines.

I doubt anyone could pick the butters from the lessers if they were all mixed together in the same tub. Many people describe butters as being brighter colored, but my lesser is one of the brightest that I've seen, and most butters I've seen at shows are consistently darker than lessers at the same show. Perhaps just a coincidence.

I probably will pick up a butter at some point and see for myself if there's much difference.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I probably will pick up a butter at some point and see for myself if there's much difference.

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But how do you know the snake u picked up was a Butter, and not a Lesser? :oops:

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Originally Posted by Rasmus Skaaning

But how do you know the snake u picked up was a Butter, and not a Lesser? :oops:

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The snake that I have now? He's a lesser - because that's what the breeder said he is and he's a trusted member here! :D

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Originally Posted by Rasmus Skaaning

But how do you know the snake u picked up was a Butter, and not a Lesser? :oops:

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same way you know if your pastel is a lemon or w/e line, ask the breeder.

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Originally Posted by hEireann Pythons

Hi,

Can some help me out please with these questions.

what is the difference between a lesser platinum & a butter? or are they the same morph with just a different name?

What lines of lessers are there?
What lines of butters are there?

Thanks

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Since nowadays with all the mislabeled animals out there, BG will give you a one word answer that best describes the difference. NAME!!!!!!!!!

I have a pair of lessers and like them better, but a pair of butters are definatley on my "want" list.
I believe they are the same snake but different lines....

They look very similar to me, but ask Ralph Davis if you want more accurate input. Both butter and lesser lines are his, and he told me that they are two distinct lines each with its own unique coloration. Now whether that means two lines like pastel/lemon pastel or two lines like black pastel/cinnamon...I don't know, but I'd probably get his input because he has been producing them for so long, and he may have noticed more distinctions than we have. Then again, by now, he may have just decided same-same.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The snake that I have now? He's a lesser - because that's what the breeder said he is and he's a trusted member here! :D

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yes i agree you have to trust the breeder :)

but what if the snake came from two BELs (mojavexlesser x butterxmojave o or any of the other combinations) ? :D

it soo hard to distinguish :tears:

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Originally Posted by GenePirate

They look very similar to me, but ask Ralph Davis if you want more accurate input. Both butter and lesser lines are his, and he told me that they are two distinct lines each with its own unique coloration. Now whether that means two lines like pastel/lemon pastel or two lines like black pastel/cinnamon...I don't know, but I'd probably get his input because he has been producing them for so long, and he may have noticed more distinctions than we have. Then again, by now, he may have just decided same-same.

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If BG is not mistaken.....and he very rarely(if ever) is.;) The Bells named the Butter. BG doesn't remember the Bells getting it from someone who named it....although it could be possible. BG even remembers Mark Bell asking BG what he thought the snake was on their poster behind their table years ago. It was a Butter. This was before there was a white snake and they were proven to do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Pedy9970

yes i agree you have to trust the breeder :)

but what if the snake came from two BELs (mojavexlesser x butterxmojave o or any of the other combinations) ? :D

it soo hard to distinguish :tears:

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Any case I've seen like that, the offspring were labelled as butter/lessers, as it is impossible to distinguish between the two. Those were from breedings of butter x lesser, but still it's the same idea.

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

If BG is not mistaken.....and he very rarely(if ever) is.;) The Bells named the Butter. BG doesn't remember the Bells getting it from someone who named it....although it could be possible. BG even remembers Mark Bell asking BG what he thought the snake was on their poster behind their table years ago. It was a Butter. This was before there was a white snake and they were proven to do the same thing.

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Yep. You're right. Just checked. Don't know how you do it. It's uncanny.

I too see no difference between the two, but I tend to like to call the lighter colors one butters because..... B comes before L. :D

1 year bump woot!

I remember the first ball python morph I ever wanted was an amazing butter at a convention. To this day I haven't seen a prettier example! I can't remember who had it, but it was just stunning. But like I said, since then I haven't seen a prettier butter, but I have seen consistently nice lessers, but it could be coincidence. Maybe I just like the lessers I see in my area, the breeders have some nice quality babies :)

They are very similar, I do think they are the same, but different lines. Subtle differences probably mostly caused by just the other genetics involved in the snakes and the mates chosen.. Two families can have the same red hair color, but they aren't going to look the same! Of course genetics in people are very different but that was just a bad example haha

I believe they are the same mutation, just selectively bred a bit differently. They do the same thing when it comes to being crossed with another lesser/butter and when mixed with a pied they usually make an all white pied. I know I shouldn't bring mojaves into this because it's already a bit complicated as it is, but mojaves do seem a bit different when it comes to when they're mixed with a pied, they usually have markings, and when mixed with another mojave the blue eyed lucy they produce is usually darker. However, you could consider them the same morph because they produce a blue eyed lucy, just a bit different.

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Originally Posted by Miko

However, you could consider them the same morph because they produce a blue eyed lucy, just a bit different.

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It makes them part of the same complex, not the same morph. mojave sits on the same locus as lesser/butter/russo/ect. however butter and lesser look the same by themselves and in every combo produced so far.

wow I learn something new everyday.....so I just bought a male butter that I am supposed to be getting in today. and I also just bought a female lesser that will be coming next week. but they are basically the same morph? so no point in breeding them together....and if I did they wouldn't be supers would they?:weirdface

hmm...ok while we're on this topic can someone please give some examples of what you would cross with a butter/lesser? if you crossed a butter/lesser X spider what would you get?....a butter bee? and a butter/lesser X pinstripe? now that I have one of each....I'm not sure what to breed each of them with.:confused:

I live down the street from the Bells, didn't realize they produced the Butter, cool! Thanks for the input!

Hi,

It would definately be a super - a blue eyed leucistic. That is the result of mating most of the combinations of genes in the BEL complex - but they can all look slightly different. The super mojave has colour on its head for example

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-lesser/

And this is a butter x spider;

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/butter-bee/

And this is a lesser bee - as you can see there is a lot of variation;

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/lesser-bee/

And this is a butter x pinstripe;

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ter-pinstripe/

And I personally love these two;

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/black-butter/

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...z/_MG_3953.jpg


dr del

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Originally Posted by tikigator

so no point in breeding them together....and if I did they wouldn't be supers would they?

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Lesser/Lesser = BEL
Butter/Butter = BEL
Lesser/Butter = BEL

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if you crossed a butter/lesser X spider what would you get?

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Lesserbee or Butterbee, both also the same thing

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butter/lesser X pinstripe?

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Kingpin

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

It would definately be a super - a blue eyed leucistic. That is the result of mating most of the combinations of genes in the BEL complex - but they can all look slightly different. The super mojave has colour on its head for example


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...z/_MG_3953.jpg


dr del

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Wow that website is awesome!! Thank you!! That last link of the group is unbelievable! I am excited that I have some female spiders and a pinstrip to breed with my male butter! And now that I have a female lesser I am try for a BEL! coooooool!!!! :banana:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Lesser/Lesser = BEL
Butter/Butter = BEL
Lesser/Butter = BEL


Lesserbee or Butterbee, both also the same thing


Kingpin

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Great clarification, many thanks!

Great thread :gj:

JK

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Originally Posted by tikigator

hmm...ok while we're on this topic can someone please give some examples of what you would cross with a butter/lesser? if you crossed a butter/lesser X spider what would you get?....a butter bee? and a butter/lesser X pinstripe? now that I have one of each....I'm not sure what to breed each of them with.:confused:

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Here's a couple examples.

Lesser X Butter ~ Notice how you can't tell them apart :P
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/PICT2694.jpg

Lesser X Bumblebee
(he pulls it off rather well I think)
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/PICT4599.jpg

Lesser X Yellowbelly
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/PICT3536.jpg

Lesser X Albino
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...o/PICT2813.jpg

There's lots of good choices to breed lessers and butters with :gj:

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the lesser is the darker one in this picture right?

Lesser X Butter ~ Notice how you can't tell them apart :P
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/PICT2694.jpg

Really?

Which one is this then?

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/909/elam04.jpg

Or this one?

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5...lelesser03.jpg

No cheating. :P


dr del

Without cheating I would call that a lesser, because of the darkness around the top of the back. But butters and lessers are the same!

These threads are confusing me! They seem to be going in circles (and I'm not just talking about my eyes) I have been trying to read these threads for about a week, after seeing a great looking snake on display. Since the tank wasn't marked I asked, and he said it was a butter...but when I looked at it again, it hardly had any black or even dark brown on it at all, I was a bit confused

From what I had noticed I prefer the lighter colored ones, and when I look at their titles they usually seem to be labeled lessers..

however the darker ones ones with more of a yellow tint/hue usually were labeled butters.. (I kept remembering what garlic butter toast looks like, bright color with some darkened tinge on it)

Mind you, this was going by my own kinda rule of thumb = observation + preference. Mabye I got it all backwards? :confused:

I guess maybe its easier just to call it all the same thing :D

Resurrecting an old thread, I know, but...
Here's my only issue with calling them the same:

Although breeding a lesser to a butter WILL give you a BEL, if you breed that BEL to a normal, you still have a 25% chance of producing a normal...which means the BEL you have is NOT a super.
If you produce a super butter BEL, you have 0% chance of producing a normal with it's offspring.

Compatible, and very similar- but not the same.

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Originally Posted by Christopher Pilgrim

Resurrecting an old thread, I know, but...
Here's my only issue with calling them the same:

Although breeding a lesser to a butter WILL give you a BEL, if you breed that BEL to a normal, you still have a 25% chance of producing a normal...which means the BEL you have is NOT a super.
If you produce a super butter BEL, you have 0% chance of producing a normal with it's offspring.

Compatible, and very similar- but not the same.

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Is this proven that a lesser/Butter BEL produces normals but a Lesser/Lesser or Butter/Butter BEL does not?

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Originally Posted by Christopher Pilgrim

Resurrecting an old thread, I know, but...
Here's my only issue with calling them the same:

Although breeding a lesser to a butter WILL give you a BEL, if you breed that BEL to a normal, you still have a 25% chance of producing a normal...which means the BEL you have is NOT a super.
If you produce a super butter BEL, you have 0% chance of producing a normal with it's offspring.

Compatible, and very similar- but not the same.

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This is incorrect. A BEL no matter how it is created will produce all morph babies, no normals.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This is incorrect. A BEL no matter how it is created will produce all morph babies, no normals.

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Right, a ButterXLesser BEL when bred to a normal would produce offspring with 50% chance of being butter and 50% chance of being lesser.

Ok I breed lesser x butter and get a Bel, and breed that Bel with a normal how can you tell what morphs the baby's will be when they hatch? If you cant tell the difference in the lesser or butter how do you lable them for sale?

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Originally Posted by Mastil

Ok I breed lesser x butter and get a Bel, and breed that Bel with a normal how can you tell what morphs the baby's will be when they hatch? If you cant tell the difference in the lesser or butter how do you lable them for sale?

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They're the same price so it really doesn't matter. I hope somone does it though because it's annoying when I try to explain to my friend what morphs are when I have to say "lesser" or "butter"...

And to correct the poster who resurrected this old thread, BEL x normal = no normals. I don't know where you got that from, but it is incorrect. The only way that a BEL x normal can produce a normal is if it's a split cluch, or retained sperm from previous breedings.

If you breed a butter/lesser bel to a normal, from everything I've heard so far, all of the offspring will be butter/lesser (not distinctly one or the other). Since you can't tell them apart, what you choose to label them as is up to you. Originally, butter and lesser looked distinct, but as continued breeding has been done, they're a lot less distinct now. Unlike Mojave/Lesser, there is nothing to suggest that butter and lesser aren't simply color-bred versions of the exact same mutation (lemon pastel and Graziani pastel would be another example of this).

Mojave and Mystic look extremely similar in some cases, but when you breed them, what you produce is different. A mystic potion does NOT look like super-mojave BEL. Therefore, it's obvious that mystic and mojave are different mutations. The same cannot be said of lesser and butter.

butter or lesser?
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/s...chago11/lb.jpg

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Originally Posted by chago11

butter or lesser?
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/s...chago11/lb.jpg

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I really couldn't tell you, I've produced lessers that look like both.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I really couldn't tell you, I've produced lessers that look like both.

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The right one is an RDR Lesser and the one on the left is a butter from Carson Phelps. I also beleive that they are the same just different lines like pastels have.

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Originally Posted by chago11

butter or lesser?
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/s...chago11/lb.jpg

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The pattern on the on on the right looks like my enchi "lesser", so I'd call it a lesser, but i have no idea