Long rant... school budget cuts.

I have to rant about something, and thought this might be a good place for it. ;) I'm a librarian with a Master's in Library/Information Science and a BA in English, and have been working at a public high school for the last 4 months (after being in the public library for years). I am only part-time right now, but was told there might be a full-time position for me in the fall. Yay.... right??

Well, unfortunately the school district is facing major budget cuts, and considering laying off 10% of their teachers... and of course that includes the librarian position, and there actually hasn't been an MLIS (professional librarian) at this school for over 10 years. Instead they're thinking of filling the position with a 60+ year-old English teacher, just so they don't have to lay him off. Okay, I understand all of that, and realize my position here was never secure. But then a teacher said something that shook me, just because it's so indicative of the problems with our educational system... she said they're cutting everything but science, math and special education - meaning they still don't care about English, foreign language, music/arts, and apparently libraries being run by real librarians.

Then we wonder why so many kids, and even adults, can't speak proper English?? :cool: And I'm referring mostly to native US-born (or raised) folks, who still can't compose a coherent sentence without numerous spelling & grammatical errors. We also wonder why kids aren't reading today, but how can they when their schools don't have proper libraries? People outside of the profession may not realize this, but librarians are specially trained with Master's degrees (required to even apply), and there is a reason for that... not just anybody can select/order books, catalog, advise readers, maintain a collection, etc etc.

So my question here is, why do they place so much importance on math & science, while ignoring the fact that our society is becoming LESS literate in recent years? And please don't blame this on immigration, because I work in a school that's comprised of at least 40% foreign-born students, and can tell you that is NOT the problem... in fact, some of my ESL students speak and write better English than the US-born kids. I'm not saying math & science aren't important, but how you speak, write and read is sooooo important in the real world. Isn't that still a priority in our schools? Not to mention the fine arts, which are basically non-existent in this district (very sad to me as I'm also a musician). Sorry for the long rant, but I just had to get this off my chest... anyone else agree or disagree? :oops:

Het Lolo, you for got to dpuble space aftre you peroids.

P.S. Note that I didn't complain about Special Ed not being cut, since I fully agree with keeping that budget healthy. :gj:

Just kidding! I feel you. They should deffinately be cutting spending in other places. I believe my children along with all other U.S. citizens deserve the best possible education.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Het Lolo, you for got to dpuble space aftre you peroids.

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LOL... you only have to do that in formal APA formatting. :D

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

LOL... you only have to do that in formal APA formatting. :D

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Did you like my typo spelling errors also?

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Did you like my typo spelling errors also?

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You know what's really sad? I didn't even notice at first, which shows how numb I've become to the errors... :weirdface

There is actually a vid on Youtube that has a bunch of miss spelled words and when you read it you don't even notice. It has something to do with our mind being programmed to speed read or something wierd like that.

who needs proper english when we have spell check....

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Originally Posted by dc1

who needs proper english when we have spell check....

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Too bad spell check doesn't catch grammatical errors, or misuse of words... how many people can't tell the difference between there/their/they're, your/you're, and so on. Drives me bonkers sometimes. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Too bad spell check doesn't catch grammatical errors, or misuse of words... how many people can't tell the difference between there/their/they're, your/you're, and so on. Drives me bonkers sometimes. :rolleye2:

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I'm real good at that stuff, I think your going bonkers,

...and how are all of those necessary sports programs doing?

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

There is actually a vid on Youtube that has a bunch of miss spelled words and when you read it you don't even notice. It has something to do with our mind being programmed to speed read or something wierd like that.

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Yeah, I got an email about that once... something about how you only need the consonants to read words, since we skim past vowels. Makes sense, when you consider some languages don't always use vowels in written form - like Hebrew and Arabic, for example.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I'm real good at that stuff, I think your going bonkers,

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:P:colbert:

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Originally Posted by BILLB OKC

...and how are all of those necessary sports programs doing?

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Ahem... I wasn't even going to mention that, but let's say the sports programs are still quite healthy. :rolleyes: I will also say that's a good thing, but I wish they placed as much importance on language & fine arts.

Oh, I also wanted to add that writing skills are even more important today, since we do so much communicating online... I only know most of you through your typing, so how do you think I judge a sentence like "I wuld of buyed that snake, but you're price is to high." :weirdface I'm going to think you either have a learning difficulty, English is your second language, or you are just plain dee-de-dee. Can't help it when I only know you from your writing, even though some people are simply bad typists. But try explaining that to a potential employer, when you email them a cover letter filled with errors!

I REALLY don't get why this country doesn't place a higher value on education and child care.

One thing that is exceptionally frustrating to me is the budget cuts that have occurred in gifted education, due to the no child left behind laws forcing schools to focus on the kids on the bottom end of the scale. While I think it is good for kids that need extra help to get it, especially those that are on the bubble to be pushed up over the edge, I think it is horrendous that it is being done at the cost of our best and brightest.

Then again, if you believe some of the conspiracy theories about how the government wants us all to become sheep, it is no surprise that gifted education is taking budget cuts.

Last spring I sat through a 2 hour meeting all about how eliminating the gifted education at my daughter's middle school was actually going to be better for the gifted students. :confused: Supposedly they were going to be incorporating the gifted stuff into every classroom. Well, I didn't buy it then, and I definitely don't buy it after having seen it in action for about half of a school year now. My daughter always used to love the stuff they did in the gifted classroom, because often it was the only time when she wasn't bored. Now she's just always bored.

I can answer your question about why the budget on stuff like science and math isn't getting cut, even though other extremely important subjects like English are. Maybe 20 years ago or so, there was quite a bit of concern at how far behind other nations the US was in our math and science education. So some efforts were made to fix that. But did we fix it by improving our education system? NO! We just sacrificed one part to make a different part slightly less horrible than it was.

:taz::rage::taz::rage::taz:

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Originally Posted by kc261

I REALLY don't get why this country doesn't place a higher value on education and child care.

One thing that is exceptionally frustrating to me is the budget cuts that have occurred in gifted education, due to the no child left behind laws forcing schools to focus on the kids on the bottom end of the scale. While I think it is good for kids that need extra help to get it, especially those that are on the bubble to be pushed up over the edge, I think it is horrendous that it is being done at the cost of our best and brightest.

Then again, if you believe some of the conspiracy theories about how the government wants us all to become sheep, it is no surprise that gifted education is taking budget cuts.

Last spring I sat through a 2 hour meeting all about how eliminating the gifted education at my daughter's middle school was actually going to be better for the gifted students. :confused: Supposedly they were going to be incorporating the gifted stuff into every classroom. Well, I didn't buy it then, and I definitely don't buy it after having seen it in action for about half of a school year now. My daughter always used to love the stuff they did in the gifted classroom, because often it was the only time when she wasn't bored. Now she's just always bored.

I can answer your question about why the budget on stuff like science and math isn't getting cut, even though other extremely important subjects like English are. Maybe 20 years ago or so, there was quite a bit of concern at how far behind other nations the US was in our math and science education. So some efforts were made to fix that. But did we fix it by improving our education system? NO! We just sacrificed one part to make a different part slightly less horrible than it was.

:taz::rage::taz::rage::taz:

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I'm all for the gifted classes! I was in GATE(Gifted and Talented Education) when I was in elementary school and it was so much fun. I was charting nautical maps in 4th and 5th grade.

I dont mean this in offense but libraries are a dying research source. Computers have books on them and much more info that could ever be put into a book.... sigh...

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Originally Posted by dc1

I dont mean this in offense but libraries are a dying research source. Computers have books on them and much more info that could ever be put into a book.... sigh...

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Ummmmmm... who do you think chooses those digital books, catalogs them, recommends them to vendors, etc? Librarianship isn't dying hon, it's just changing. ;)

P.S. As a former public librarian, I can also tell you they're still extremely valuable to the community... especially in low-income areas, where we're their only access to computers and social programs. Remember, libraries have computers now - LOL.

It's about votes.

You will lose votes if you cut sports. You will lose votes if you cut science, even though the voters generally don't have a clue what science is.

How many people have been inside a library in the last year? How many students talk to their parents about the resources available there?

Librarians are much akin to mice. I don't mean that in a bad way. You're smart but generally quiet. You don't hang out with the "popular" kids or teachers, you tend to be found with others like you, those who pursue intellectual not physical endeavors.

It's about perception and popularity mixed in with a bit of ignorance.

If Johnny's dad, or Joanie's, sees his kid making a touchdown or cheering in front of a crowd, sinking a basket or digging hard for that match point, they feel proud and want those programs to continue so they CAN feel proud.

Sherman and Ophilia, the top performing students, are never seen in such light and therefore the programs that allow them to be all THEY can be, are not as important.

It pretty much sucks.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I'm all for the gifted classes! I was in GATE(Gifted and Talented Education) when I was in elementary school and it was so much fun. I was charting nautical maps in 4th and 5th grade.

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Me too... I loved GATE! :gj: Eventually my parents put me into private schools, though, since the GATE programs were suffering even back then (1980s).

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How many people have been inside a library in the last year? How many students talk to their parents about the resources available there?

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Twice a week and earlier int he month I picked up a book that she had ordered via interlibrary loan.

Well to give you an example, My first year of High School was my 2nd year in the US. I did not speak any English what so ever when I arrived. Both of my ESOL English teachers said I shouldn't be in ESOL classes, but in regular classes but they didn't want to move me because I was already half way through the year, and also because I asked them not to, I had friends who were in regular English classes and they had HORRIBLE grammar, I knew before hand that I wasn't gonna learn anything in regular English classes.

They actually wanted me to join AP English classes for the next school year. But I was kinda depressed during those years and I refused to go to AP, but still, they moved me to regular English classes. Now the next school year as far as English classes went, It was CAKE compared to ESOL English. I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THIS. People had horrible grammar. The classes were lame. I did not learn anything that I already knew from ESOL. I actually regretted not joined AP classes.

I don't understand why people in the US are not very interested in their own language. The schools show this. The average English speaking Immigrant that went to school can write English better than the average American.

I'm with you 110%. The education system is really going down the toilet. It wasn't fantastic when I was in school, and in some areas, it just keeps getting worse. If there is one thing that should not be skimped on in budgeting, it's education; but it is, every single year.

My husband moved here from Sweden, and he was very surprised when I explained to him that people didn't realize he wasn't a native speaker, because their English was worse than his.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm with you 110%. The education system is really going down the toilet. It wasn't fantastic when I was in school, and in some areas, it just keeps getting worse. If there is one thing that should not be skimped on in budgeting, it's education; but it is, every single year.

My husband moved here from Sweden, and he was very surprised when I explained to him that people didn't realize he wasn't a native speaker, because their English was worse than his.

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People don't realize I'm wasn't born American unless they play close attention to my accent, and my first language is Spanish. It really is no joke when an Immigrant realizes he understands English better than the very Americans in the US. It is kind of sad. But it is true.

My BF's mom is a special ed teacher, and boy oh boy those budget cuts are taking a toll on her. Sometimes she's the last one to leave the school, even after the janitor has left! It's crazy. We go over to see her and she's correcting papers. Yet, the other special ed teacher has TWO assistants and hardly ever stays after school gets out, and hardly ever takes work home.

I didn't know all that about the libraries though. That makes me sad! I love reading, and my favorite subject in school was English. I found it fun and semi easy, but loved to be challenged. I'd like to think I speak fine, I can get my words mixed up sometimes. I think that's mainly me not thinking about how I'm going to say something before I say it. I try to read to expand my vocabulary, because I hate sounding dumb! I heard that reading will help expand your vocab and will help you form sentences better... If it's true, no wonder so many people have crappy english since all you read now-a-days is txts and computer screens.

Hope things get better down there Lolo... They're not much better up here. :(

well our school is having big budget cuts. If this vote does not pass here in march......I will loose my job. Not a biggie to me because I will be there anyways to volunteer. But PE goes away and the music program goes away. We already lost our art program. Ugh.... there will be no field trips unless parents kick in money for it. The reptile show I did...was paid for by myself....and thankfully a mining company (crazy) kicked in the printing of colored booklets for the kids. We will only be keeping football and cheer not because thats what gets the votes....but that is what brings in more money.

In AZ we just moved our ELL (english language learning) kids to a class together. I really thought it wasn't going to be a good idea for them but I have to say it is working really really well. They are learning more....and it is not holding the others back. Right now our Special Ed department is not being affected. And my hats off to anyone that does that...wow that is a HARD job.


As far as our library...we have an excellent one. We have many agencies here in the area that donated books and thousands of dollars for us to have great school library. As well as parents came together and donated gently used books. We also incorporated an Accelerated Reader program here and it is AMAZING. Really lets you gauge what level the children should be reading and if they are comprehending what they are reading.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If there is one thing that should not be skimped on in budgeting, it's education; but it is, every single year.

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I agree. But there are some serious flaws in our education system and how we approach things that throwing money at won't fix.

First is the lack of participation and active engagement of parents. Parents just don't seem to take much interest in their kids education. Many don't know their kid's teachers, don't know what the kids are learning, don't discuss what the kids are doing with them. It also seems in my experience that parents tend to blame teachers and not themselves and their kids. Several of my friends are teachers and the stories they tell of parents blaming them for their kid's failures while ignoring that the kid hasn't turned in any homework, doesn't come to tutoring, and flunks all his tests. That and parents and kids are too quick to settle for mediocrity. They just settle for passing instead of putting in extra effort and going for that B or A. And the parents just accept it.

The other thing I think is that money is mismanaged; especially towards sports. I grew up in TX where football is king and the HS I went to was a big time 5A powerhouse at the time. Every other year the football team got brand new astroturf in the stadium. All of my AP classes we didn't have textbooks. We got photocopies from the lone teacher edition that our teachers had. When my parents brought this up at a school board meeting they were told that there wasn't enough money to buy textbooks for the higher level classes and that the money had to be spent elsewhere. When they mentioned the astroturf they were told that it represented a sense of pride for the football team and was a necessary expense. They were shocked that pleasing football players was more important than providing textbooks for learning.

This isn't a knock against sports. They're very important and play a significant role. But they shouldn't trump education and learning IMO.

Sorry for the rant. But the insane money spent on sports and the increasing laxidasical attitude of parents towards their kids education makes me nuts!!

As for the OP I feel your pain. My aunt is a librarian at the school she teaches at and has her Master's in it just like you. It is sad that so many people don't appreciate a good book. And also sad that they can't even write a coherent sentence.

Just to play devil's advocate towards the math and science. Those are subjects that are universal. So I think that pushing them is extremely important in our world economy where people are very mobile. Math here is the same as math in Germany for instance. Whereas good english grammar isn't universal and won't do you much good on a global scale.

That being said, English skills shouldn't suffer though. And it is atrocious at how poorly so many people write and speak these days.

I always find this subject to be very interesting. First, you have the debate about parents vs. teachers for taking the blame for failing students. Next, you have the debate of sports vs. arts when it comes to budget cuts. Last, you have the debate of money management within the educational system.

When it comes to the academic success of the students, I feel that the blame chain goes parents, students, then teachers. If the student doesn't have proper motivation and support at home, they will not take education seriously. They will look at it as something they don't want to do and will not take it seriously. There is nothing the teacher can do about the students once they leave the classroom.

The education system has become a popularity contest when it comes to budget cuts. Math, science, english, and other core curriculum are viewed as necessary subjects and will never be eliminated. Sports are very popular, so they will be the last to be eliminated. The arts are considered electives, so they are 'logically' the primary choice for making cuts. My argument is that the arts inspire creativity, thought, innovation, and progress. Without those things our society will stagnate and fail to progress.

These issues do not only occur in grade school. There are now similar issues popping up in higher education. Just this week here in Vegas, it was announced that of the top 20 most expensive departments at UNLV, there is a potential that 7 to 10 of those departments could be eliminated. Click here to see the list of departments that could be eliminated. Now, this doesn't mean that a student wouldn't be able to go to another school to get degrees from those areas of study, but just the fact that some people think that the answer to solving educational budget problems is to teach fewer things is quite scary.

The future of our nation and world as a whole depends on the education we provide our kids. That includes the education they receive at home and at school. If we fail to educate our children, then our grandchildren will have no future.

I totally agree with you Brainman!!! It is really unfortunate that the US school system...at least the public school, is so far behind the power curve with other schools in the world. And we seem to sweep it under the rug and continue to allow our states to cut funding. It boggles my mind why cuts to education even happen. This is our future....these ppl are going to take care of us when we are old... UGH!!!!!! I also agree with the parents being the biggest part of the problem in most cases. I see it all too often with my classes. I had a parent tell me that they think homework is bolonga and it is the teachers responsibility to teach everything. (this was someone that worked in the shool system) You can totally tell which parent helps the kid with homework and which does not. Which parent helps practicing spelling .....and which does not. We have several kids in class that within a 3 week period are missing up to 30 assignments. :O We always run a missing assignment report...pull the assignments and send a packet home to their parents with their current failing grades. We maybe get 1/2 back. Now we know which kids to send it home to their parents and which to send to study hall to complete as the parents will not supervise and ensure they complete. This is only second grade....:O Oye if my child ever pulled that ....he would loose everything and be grounded for oh I dunno....the rest of his life!!!! lol

I would assume that laws prevent the cutting of Special education. I doubt that is even an option for them. I would assume that test scores that affect the School budget would come from Math and Science classes. I would assume that the School District is on the hook for pension benefits with this 60+ year old teacher and to retain you, an employee for a mere 4 months would not be cost effective. In a time that Municipalities are struggling to survive with falling revenue from residential Property taxes from homes having dropping reassessments and businesses closing right and left I find your viewpoint rather naive. I doubt that quality education is a serious consideration in any but the most affluent school districts in which private money can subsidize the local school budget. Simple survival is the order of the day.

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Originally Posted by brainman1000

When it comes to the academic success of the students, I feel that the blame chain goes parents, students, then teachers. If the student doesn't have proper motivation and support at home, they will not take education seriously. They will look at it as something they don't want to do and will not take it seriously. There is nothing the teacher can do about the students once they leave the classroom.

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Couldn't agree more!! It was because of my parents that I made it through a couple of classes in high school where I had terrible and lousy teachers.

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The education system has become a popularity contest when it comes to budget cuts. Math, science, english, and other core curriculum are viewed as necessary subjects and will never be eliminated. Sports are very popular, so they will be the last to be eliminated. The arts are considered electives, so they are 'logically' the primary choice for making cuts. My argument is that the arts inspire creativity, thought, innovation, and progress. Without those things our society will stagnate and fail to progress.

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On the flip side, sports build teamwork, leadership, discipline, hard work, can give a school a sense of pride (don't underestimate that one), and other skills that are necessary for a functional society. But I still think that too much $$$ is thrown at sports and too little at the arts and other programs.

All I can think is; hey America, how's that TRILLION dollar a year Military budget treating you.

If educating children in your own country was as important as being able to blow up children in other countries, you'd all be so educated that... uh... well it would be much harder to make fun of Americans.

No offence meant, of course :D.

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Originally Posted by MustBeSatan

All I can think is; hey America, how's that TRILLION dollar a year Military budget treating you.

If educating children in your own country was as important as being able to blow up children in other countries, you'd all be so educated that... uh... well it would be much harder to make fun of Americans.

No offence meant, of course :D.

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Ugh.....are you kidding me. Im just gonna leave this one for skiploader or disirkle. But I will leave you with the fact that my husband spent 24 years serving this country and giving you the right to say crap like that. I personally AM very very offended by that remark.

What's to be offended by? The amount we spend on our military is disgusting. It's not that we don't need one, it's just that we spend TOO MUCH on it. There's so much money, people are PLAYING with it--the military has heaps of equipment it does not and never will need. What it does need, it spends more than necessary on. It's bloated, wasteful, and it's a complete disgrace that it receives more money than education. Protecting the country is important--but it's equally as important as educating the country, not MORE so.

You can be in the military and still disagree with the budgeting choices. This country's priorities are SEVERELY broken.
The part that gets me is that virtually any person you ask will tell you they want more money to be put toward education. So why isn't it happening?

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Ugh.....are you kidding me. Im just gonna leave this one for skiploader or disirkle. But I will leave you with the fact that my husband spent 24 years serving this country and giving you the right to say crap like that. I personally AM very very offended by that remark.

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I'm not kidding you.

I'm not disrespecting anyone who serves in the military... But I don't see any need to spend $1,000,000,000,000+ dollars a year on a military. Somehow, I have a feeling some budget trimming could be done there without sacrificing anything in the way of national security.

Saying the US spends too much on their military is completely different from saying anything bad about anyone in the military, I hope you don't think I am grouping those two things together, because I'm really not.

My point is, while the US government pumps billions into military research and development, the public education system has to make massive cuts that include CRITICAL skills like English. Not to mention that something like 30 Million Americans live under the poverty line. How much sense does it make to continue spending millions on individual missiles, when children in your own country can't eat three meals a day?

In any case, I hope you see that I wasn't insulting anyone in the military.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

On the flip side, sports build teamwork, leadership, discipline, hard work, can give a school a sense of pride (don't underestimate that one), and other skills that are necessary for a functional society. But I still think that too much $$$ is thrown at sports and too little at the arts and other programs.

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That is very true. Sports do have their educational qualities, but whenever budget cuts are mentioned it is always the arts programs that are targeted first and not the sports programs. It's all about priorities.

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Originally Posted by MustBeSatan

All I can think is; hey America, how's that TRILLION dollar a year Military budget treating you.

If educating children in your own country was as important as being able to blow up children in other countries, you'd all be so educated that... uh... well it would be much harder to make fun of Americans.

No offence meant, of course :D.

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I actually have to agree with you. Again, it is all about priorities.

Really so this isn't offensive to anyone.....and I should go ....oh yea my hubby he does that.

Quote - "If educating children in your own country was as important as being able to blow up children in other countries"
No that should not be offensive at all.

I suppose the military should tell all of the companies that make this over inflated priced stuff that assists in trying to keep our soldiers safe to give them a discount???? Really ....so now the government should step in and mandate prices of other companies. Listen...raytheon and the other companies are not in it for the good of the US. They are in this to make money....and yes..they have competitors. You have NO IDEA what goes into making some of the equipment that the military buys and the endless testing that it has to go through. And just how much that testing costs. Why does the tests cost so much....because it takes so many analysts...and test engineers and etc. to make sure that the millions that the government is going to put into this piece of equipment will actually be worth it.

Are you suggesting they cut corners on testing and spending money that can diffuse an IED that will potentially save a soldiers life. Or better yet...maybe they should just scrap a system that will funnel all of the intel into one place so that it is shared by all agencies instead of having to go to 18 different places to get it. Better yet lets not come up with anything that will stop a nuclear warhead from hitting us when the crazies like Korea shoot them off.

UGh!!

Does the military spend allot...yes they do...but unless you want someone on our shores...we better remain cutting edge. Not to mention many enlisted are still severly underpaid. Would you go to Iraq and risk your life and leave your family for 15 months for 30K? Yea...I probably know the answer to that. So unless you really know what you are talking about and you have experience with what this money is really spent on ....and not just pulling something out of your butt.....I suggest you do your research.

Apples to oranges.

All of you who are complaining about how much we spend on the military versus how much we are spending on education are comparing apples to oranges.

The federal government funds the military - states fund education. Even if the federal government stopped funding the military, that money would not make it into the education system so quit your whining about military spending. Not all of us live in your special fantasy world where China, Russia, Iran and North Korea will stop hating us if we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Do some of us a favor before you go making bold statements about defense spending and education spending - figure out which is a federal and which is a state responsibility. It makes for a much more informed argument.

We've covered this ground before. While funding education should be a priority it should be a LOCAL and STATE priority according to the constitution. Some of you knuckleheads think that the only way out of our education and health care messes is at the teat of Uncle Sugar......

Oh and as old WingedWolf and I have established before, total government (State and Federal) spending on education is greater than defense - fact. Live with it and stop propagating bull crap for the sake of making a pointless point. Yes -several socialist and communist websites skew this data by presenting only the Federal spending - but as we have now established - that is an intellectually dishonest argument.

We need to fix the education system as badly as we need to fix the health care system - both are dysfunctional and both are, in large part, propagating their own problems. The problem is that the education system has not gotten better no matter how much money we've spent on it. The problem is waste and making sure the money spent on education makes it to the class room and not the administrative offices.

Example: I readily give at school fundraisers when I am guaranteed that this money goes directly to maintaining programs (like the library or the computer lab) or makes it directly to the classroom. I refuse to give another freaking penny to the California State education system until the schools are in better shape than the District offices.

Yes, our local schools have dilapidated equipment, shoddy facilities and are understaffed. On the other hand, the local District offices are nice, new and shiny - with new computers, copy machines and self-flushing toilets.

In California we have a problem. Entitlements are so high that infrastructure and education are going to take a massive hit. Until the citizens of the Republik of Kalifornia wake up to the fact that people like Lolo76 may lose their job at the expense of social experiments and administrative waste, things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Next year my kids will be going to private school. For a tad more than my tax dollars are currently being outlaid for public education - they will got to a school with a staffed library, sports curricula, a science and computer lab and each kid gets a laptop. Ask yourselves this: how can a private school, for almost the same amount of money per student, achieve this?

Laura - I hope everything turns out the best for you. We have met and I think that the kids in your District are going to miss out on having some one as intelligent, passionate and literary (for lack of a better word) helping to fuel their passion for literature. I really hope that their loss will be someone else's gain.

Well, that was a dig, yes--those things happen when you invade another country, no matter how good your reasons seem to be. Country gets invaded, kids get blown up. It's inevitable. Doesn't matter who, or what country. I do generally think the US should either poo or get off the pot--if we're going over to some other country to smack someone down, it should be without the kid gloves--full force with everything we've got, and over in a week. (If we went full force, it WOULD be over in a week). We'd get a terrible reputation, but our rep's not that great anyhow. This piddling around with a few dozen troops here and there is a waste of time, money, and lives.

As for the fancy equipment--the vast bulk of it's NOT EVEN BEING USED. It's in development for 10 years, and many a handful of guys ever get to use it, and it never winds up in the field. And most of it's geared toward putting people in places that people don't even have to go anymore.
And yes, the government does need to say "I'm sorry, that's too expensive, we're going to look for a contract with someone else if you don't lower your prices to something less than the cost of the Hubble Space Telescope".

The point is, EDUCATION IS JUST AS VALUABLE AS DEFENSE. It should have equal funding. If it did, the military could buy much fancier weapons for less money, because there would be plenty of people competing to build fancy weapons. Education does that.
Equal FEDERAL funding. The States clearly cannot afford it. Good education IS expensive. Yes, the system needs to be overhauled as well. All government-run systems appear to be increasingly corrupt.

Our founding fathers predicted that it would happen, so why is everyone so surprised?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, that was a dig, yes--those things happen when you invade another country, no matter how good your reasons seem to be. Country gets invaded, kids get blown up. It's inevitable. Doesn't matter who, or what country. I do generally think the US should either poo or get off the pot--if we're going over to some other country to smack someone down, it should be without the kid gloves--full force with everything we've got, and over in a week. (If we went full force, it WOULD be over in a week). We'd get a terrible reputation, but our rep's not that great anyhow. This piddling around with a few dozen troops here and there is a waste of time, money, and lives.

I totally agree with you on this. But we keep trying to fight a politically correct war with ppl that don't play like that.

As for the fancy equipment--the vast bulk of it's NOT EVEN BEING USED. It's in development for 10 years, and many a handful of guys ever get to use it, and it never winds up in the field. And most of it's geared toward putting people in places that people don't even have to go anymore.
And yes, the government does need to say "I'm sorry, that's too expensive, we're going to look for a contract with someone else if you don't lower your prices to something less than the cost of the Hubble Space Telescope".

I don't agree that this is totally true. Typically in the military things have to go through a five year testing plan. Unless it is for theater and then it is put through much more quickly. And that is great to say that is too expensive...but in reality...it is not cheaper anywhere else. Look the overhead alone that these companies have is crazy. Just for some of the clearances for employees is over 100K. That is why allot of the time they are looking for ppl with existing clearances. That isn't saying anything about employing high level engineers that can design and create these systems. Its not free and there is always another company that will pay more.

The point is, EDUCATION IS JUST AS VALUABLE AS DEFENSE. It should have equal funding. If it did, the military could buy much fancier weapons for less money, because there would be plenty of people competing to build fancy weapons. Education does that.
Equal FEDERAL funding. The States clearly cannot afford it. Good education IS expensive. Yes, the system needs to be overhauled as well. All government-run systems appear to be increasingly corrupt.


Again to agree with skiploader....you can throw all the money in the world at the education system....doesn't mean it is going to get better. I agree.....go down and take a look at your local district school offices.....they are usually very nice compared to the schools.

Our founding fathers predicted that it would happen, so why is everyone so surprised?

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So, how does this get fixed?

I'm curious to hear ideas.


You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. I doubt there is a way to fix our education system. It's too mired in bureaucracy.

Okay, I wrote a response but I deleted all but the following... I don't think me arguing with you guys about your military is productive lol.

I don't have all the facts and I won't claim to. My point was simple: The United States is the wealthiest country in the world. The money is there; there is just no excuse for a dismal school system. I know you guys and your army is like us and hockey; it's part of the culture and we're darn proud of it. But to me, allowing something as fundamental as an education system to decay while something like the military flourishes... It seems like priorities have gotten confused.

If anyone wants to flame me for my views on American military spending I'd be glad to go toe to toe on it, but lets do it in a thread about that, rather than in Lolo's thread. I apoligize for derailing the thread with my comment, the implications of which I did not consider.

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Originally Posted by singingtothewheat

So, how does this get fixed?

I'm curious to hear ideas.


You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. I doubt there is a way to fix our education system. It's too mired in bureaucracy.

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Believe it or not, one of the fixes really just does just come down to money.

It's proven in theory and in practice.

My four years in high school, not a single proposed piece of local legislature for school funding was voted down. I lived in a fairly affluent suburb in Texas. Pretty much all the funding came directly from property taxes.

My high school was recognized in my senior year as being the "best" public school academically in the entire state. We had a 99% graduation rate, and a 75-80% secondary education attendance rate.

The biggest difference between that school district and most other school districts is that we had well payed teachers, well-funded classes and supplies, well-funded arts and sports programs.. I could go on.

Give more money to the system, and you get better tools, better teachers, and more motivation for students.

There are lots of other little things that could be done, but the little things are surprisingly more difficult to change on the whole.

Edit:

To skiploader's complaint about money, as it relates to my public school experience.

All the legislature that was passed with regards to my school districts' funding were specific in what they were funding.. the new concert hall, chem lab etc. Skip is right that we have to make sure that money is going to do something useful.

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Originally Posted by singingtothewheat

So, how does this get fixed?

I'm curious to hear ideas.


You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. I doubt there is a way to fix our education system. It's too mired in bureaucracy.

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It doesn't.

We haven't even touched on the amount of unfunded (California anyway) teacher retirement pensions that are going to suck up more tax dollars ($43 billion). Other States have similar problems.

One way is to privatize the education system. Back out the tax dollars you pay on education (54% of the general fund in my state) or make the money spent on education pre-tax dollars and therefore a deduction applied to your taxable income.

Studies have shown that private school costs about 1/3 less (on average) than public school - but this does not take into account special needs kids.

The problem is that the infrastructure is not there for a immediate dissolution of the public education system. In the meantime - allow people who send their kids to private schools to claim that money as a deduction on their state tax return.

Or we could go the way of the voucher system..........Sweden and Hong Kong are two countries who have implemented this system with success. Problem is that the Public School Unions and the NEA are very powerful and politically influential and repeatedly block any attempts at either implementing a voucher system or reforming the public education system.

These are also the same unions who are draining State coffers for unsustainable pension packages. One wonders why they would be afraid of some private competition.........

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Believe it or not, one of the fixes really just does just come down to money.

It's proven in theory and in practice.

My four years in high school, not a single proposed piece of local legislature for school funding was voted down. I lived in a fairly affluent suburb in Texas. Pretty much all the funding came directly from property taxes.

My high school was recognized in my senior year as being the "best" public school academically in the entire state. We had a 99% graduation rate, and a 75-80% secondary education attendance rate.

The biggest difference between that school district and most other school districts is that we had well payed teachers, well-funded classes and supplies, well-funded arts and sports programs.. I could go on.

Give more money to the system, and you get better tools, better teachers, and more motivation for students.

There are lots of other little things that could be done, but the little things are surprisingly more difficult to change on the whole.

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California pays it's teachers more than any other state in the union and is ranked at or near the bottom in efficacy of education.

What's the use of throwing more money at the problem when only a percentage of it reaches the students? Do you have any idea how much of every dollar spent on education makes it to the classroom and the kids?

The only way to circumvent that is to target where the money goes - as apparently is the case in your District. In California, this is routinely blocked by the Unions. The Unions are actively throwing up roadblocks to account for the effective use of the monies collected.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

California pays it's teachers more than any other state in the union and is ranked at or near the bottom in efficacy of education.

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Cost of living in California is through the roof.. I think that offsets any strict dollar for dollar salary comparison. That's where comparisons get mucky.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

In California, this is routinely blocked by the Unions. The Unions are actively throwing up roadblocks to account for the effective use of the monies collected.

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That really sucks.

I hate Unions.

A friend of mine likes to claim that eventually all systems deliver the exact opposite of what the original design was intended to deliver. I think that Unions fit that quite well.