Snakes/Reptiles and their Emotions The argument

I once stumbled upon a threw with a poll Does your snake love you?
Alot of the responses where it's imposable for a reptile to you love you,they lack the brain power to do so,So if your theroy is that snakes/reptiles are creatures of instinct and don't give two [flips] who handle or care for them because they can only feel pleasure fear pain,That being said my theory is a snake in particular doesn't care who cares for it who provides for it that if say a ball python was with me for 10 years that we would have no connection what so ever that that snake could be passed from person to person care and it would not know the difference,i find it insane to think that a snake does not come accustom to one person or crave attention,


Discuss :confused: :rolleye2:

I can't quite make sense of your thread.

Can you please slow down your fingers, and clarify your post please? Thanks.

its a good point you bring up and i see it once in a while with one of my females ill go to handle to her tub and when i open the cage she comes right out if its one of my friends she stays where she is but they. lack the part of the brain that shows emotion. and i think its more of it knows its safe with the person who cares for it.

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Originally Posted by The_Argument

Discuss :confused: :rolleye2:

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I'm not sure about the rest of your message, but I definitely agree with your last two emoticons...

I don't think my snake shows affection so much as he acts very secure with me. He won't ever go over willingly to someone else when I'm holding him.

The latest proof of this (in my mind) is his second shed since I have had him. The first shed went beautifully but this one has been a real problem.

I soaked him for about 45 minutes a couple days ago... he did not like it, but it helped some of the shed work loose. After I let him out I tried to pull some of the shed off with a rag and he was not having it. He made it clear he wanted out of my hands.

I tried soaking him again yesterday, and again he didn't like it. This time when I pulled him out, however, he let me hold him and peel more shed off. It's like he realized that I wasn't going to hurt him, and that when I was finished he would feel better for letting me do it. So he didn't give me any trouble about pulling the shed off all the way up to within an inch of his head!

I seriously doubt he would have let anybody else do that.

Lol that was my thread :)

Yes, I believe that my snakes share no connection with me. At the most they recognize my smell and realize I am not going to eat them, but that is about it.

The main deciding factor in my opinion is the fact that ball pythons are not social animals like dogs, birds, rodents, stuff like that. If they were social, I would have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by The_Argument

I once stumbled upon a threw with a poll Does your snake love you?
Alot of the responses where it's imposable for a reptile to you love you,they lack the brain power to do so,So if your theroy is that snakes/reptiles are creatures of instinct and don't give two s@$# who handle or care for them because they can only feel pleasure fear pain,That being said my theory is a snake in particular doesn't care who cares for it who provides for it that if say a ball python was with me for 10 years that we would have no connection what so ever that that snake could be passed from person to person care and it would not know the difference,i find it insane to think that a snake does not come accustom to one person or crave attention,


Discuss :confused: :rolleye2:

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Don't fret. I shall translate, for I have just returned from a Bloodpython19 thread and can decipher these types of cryptic messages.

Translation into English:

I once stumbled upon a poll that was titled "Does your snake love you?"

A majority of the responses stated that it was impossible for a reptile to love you due to the lack of brain power. That particular theory is based on the argument that snakes are creatures of instinct and possesses no preference over who provides for it because they can only feel pleasure, fear, and pain.

However, I disagree. My theory is that a snake would care for who provides for it. It is insane to think that a snake I have spent 10 years with would not develop some sort of connection with me, and become accustomed to my interactions with it and crave my attention.

Please provide your own theories and your reasoning behind them. :confused::rolleye2:

Now, to shorten it up, I think this is what he really meant to say:

Although it has been stated over and over that snakes lack the ability to love me, I still want to believe it. I find it impossible that snakes can't feel this emotion, simply because I feel this emotion for my snake.

And to answer that... nothing wrong with pretending, or developing an attachment to your snake. However, realistically your snake doesn't share the same emotion you feel towards it.

:D

But my spider told me she loved me last nite!! and my pastel got super jelous! I dont believe this non sence!! :tears:

Bad troll is a bad troll.

My snakes (including the one I'm snake-sitting right now here) do not love me. One actively dislikes my presence. The other two do are neutral...they do not perceive me as a threat, nor am I anything that merits much attention. I'm pretty sure my Ball Python, Macchiato, views me as nothing more than the Largish Warm Perch/Branch I Sometimes Occupy That Makes Heartbeaty Sounds And Might Possibly Be A Large, Harmless Animal Of Some Kind.

And I am fine with that. ;)

I did not get my snakes with the desire or need for them to love me, or like me, or know I exist as an entity all my own. I love THEM, and name them, and sing to them even though they can't hear me (little Neheb, the charcoal Corn Snake I'm snake-sitting for, has his own theme song now: "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine...you make me happy, because you're gray...yer a snake an' can't hear me say I love you, but I sing it to you anyway!") and otherwise slather them with affection and consider it a major breakthrough when Bowline, my Pueblan Milk Snake, doesn't musk at the mere hint of my presence.

I am emotionally mature enough not to NEED my pets to love me. I love them unconditionally, and that means I require nothing more or less of them than for them to be content, comfortable and well-cared-for.

Anyone who gets a snake expecting it to love them is in for a shock, they aren't mammals and unlike a dog, who modifies it's behaviour (for good or ill) based on what it thinks it's human companion wants, my snakes will take no action to express affection...and likely can't feel affection as we know it.

However, being human, I felt an emotional response when I re-designed Macchiato's enclosure, gently set him inside it, and watched him look around, tongue-flick for two seconds, then zoom back into my hands and up my arm with a supprising ammount of speed.

I felt emotionally as if he were saying, "I like you." Intellectually, I know the truth: he was just opting for a familar perch/branch (MY ARM) than what had become an unfamilar place to be.

And, again, I'm totally okay with it being a very one-sided relationship. :)

I don't think they have emotions in that sense. They may seem to prefer certain people over others, but I imagine that's just because some people are more calm with snakes than others.

RockyTop that was great, even though you're a damn Vols fan:rofl:

Are you kidding me? My snakes love me so much, I've got to get their approval to sell them to someone else. They love me so much, a few of them have kissed me a number of times. Usually the blood stops flowing after 10-15 minutes. My snakes love me so much they leave little presents in their enclosures every once in awhile. How can you say your snakes don't love you?

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Are you kidding me? My snakes love me so much, I've got to get their approval to sell them to someone else. They love me so much, a few of them have kissed me a number of times. Usually the blood stops flowing after 10-15 minutes. My snakes love me so much they leave little presents in their enclosures every once in awhile. How can you say your snakes don't love you?

Jim Smith

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Once in a while?? Mine do it right after I clean their cages!:rofl:

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Originally Posted by MattU

RockyTop that was great, even though you're a damn Vols fan:rofl:

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lmao, well... we now have one of Saban's proteges at the helm, so maybe we will one day return to the greatness of 1998 (wow, doesn't seem like 12 years ago!)

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Originally Posted by Danounet

But my spider told me she loved me last nite!! and my pastel got super jelous! I dont believe this non sence!! :tears:

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LMAO :rofl:

I don't beleive that they have emotions, or form friendships / bonds with humans.

I think my snake loves me...and if plants can feel emotions why not snakes?

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Originally Posted by astral_dream_god

I think my snake loves me...and if plants can feel emotions why not snakes?

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Are you being sarcastic? Plants can't feel emotions.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Are you being sarcastic? Plants can't feel emotions.

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I digress

YouTube - Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Trailer

:D

snakes are not capable of that emotion...

I think its funny that people say snakes cannot experience emotion, since a snake is not a human being and you cannot really communicate with one it is almost impossible to really know whether they experience emotion or not...
They may have small brains but a large brain does not always equate to emotion, some human beings like sociopaths experience little to no emotion whatsoever, atleast what we would call emotion... A snake may experience something akin to emotion however their thoughts are incomprehensible to us, so no one can truly say. However I believe its possible for them to be somewhat emotional, I mean I like people that feed me, and clean up after me, and I am sure that snakes can equate humans with food, and they definitely can be tamed, which means they can learn, why cant they learn to prefer certain people then? After all they are smart enough to survive in the wild which is a very unfriendly place for them, this alone requires cunning to continue to exist in such an environment. They are smart enough to be afraid why cant they be smart enough to experience something akin to the opposite of fear? We will most likely never know, but I like to think my snake is atleast a little fond of me...

Snakes are not like dogs and cats though. They live on instinct. They probably prefer to perch on humans only because we are warm. (which is why even my cats choose to sleep on and around me at night. We humans are merely walking heating elements) When they are "cuddling" up against your neck, under your hair, they are not being affectionate. They are simply seeking the warmest part of your body since room temperature is a bit chilly for them. And kissing (by means of tapping their nose to a part of your body or flicking their tongue and it touches you) is probably just them exploring their surroundings. The smells coming from your body (smells coming from your mouth) change all the time and when a snake smells something different, it has to investigate. When you are holding them and they refuse to leave you to go to another person that is probably because when a snake has found a nice warm spot, they are not likely to leave it as long as they are not being threatened or are not disturbed. This does not mean they prefer you specifically, they are just comfortable where they are and prefer not to expend more energy in finding another spot.

I don't believe ANY of my snakes can show affection. We want to think they do because we as a species are social and display a wide variety of emotions. So when we have an emotional attachment to our snakes, we naturally expect some kind of response back (kind of like grooming in cats.) Any action that is based purely in instinct (seeking warmth, smelling their surroundings, etc) we take as affection (kissing, cuddling, not wanting to leave our hands.) :rolleyes:

My snakes definatly show a prefrence for who is handeling them, my pastel likes my partner and my normal likes me to the point where she stares at me while I am typing at my computer and loves to be handled by me only, she bites every one else.

Also you just hear them thinking; Oh Great Bringer of rodents..........

However I dont think that they really feel emotions like we do.

I don't require that my snakes reciprocate my feelings for them in order to love and appreciate them for being exactly what they are supposed to be - a snake. I've adopted many snakes and sent out many snakes - none of them had any problem adapting to a new keeper, and they certainly didn't mourn the loss of their previous owner or miss them in any way.

People anthropomorphize all the time. We do it to our dogs, cats, computers and even snakes. I personally believe that snakes do not have the ability to feel emotions. I do believe they feel pain to some extent, discomfort, comfort, and instinctual fear.

That being said, I also believe that the animals we keep should be cared for properly. If someone believes that their snake loves them and that makes them care for the animal better, go for it.

I have a friend that bought a pastel ball python from me last year. He swears the Denny (the snake) is as smart as his cat and twice as personable. He also thinks that Denny loves him. It makes my friend happy to believe this and he cares for his pet very very well so even though I disagree with the snakes feel emotions thing I am all for proper care of captive animals.

I see all you guys points, but I dont honestly think you can say that snakes have no emotions, or that they do for sure, there is really no way to tell either way, evidence for either idea is purely objective and is colored by our own perceptions, so it really comes down to what u want to believe, some people believe they are instinctual automatons, and others believe they can experience atleast something that could be called "emotion"...

It has been shown in tests that Komodo Dragons exhibit play behaviour at certain times, admittedly they also like to eat eachother, lol. So who knows? maybe some snakes get a kick out of warm smelly humans, there is no way to tell...

I will tell you one pet that doesnt seem like the best canidate for emotion, and that would be my tarantulas, they do however change demeanor, I have noticed that on some days they are just pissy, and others they can be relaxed, is that emotion ? Who knows?!

Anyway I am getting off point here, the original point was that people who say snakes dont feel emotion could be just as wrong as the people who say they do, we cannot easily prove either theory...

Geez you guys are all bummers!! My snakes totally love me lots and lots...well except maybe Samantha. I think she has the hots for my hubby. Little..."bleep"...:oops:


I think they recognize our smell and I think that they feel safe with us. I also think that some have more personality than others. I think sometimes they have fun doing certain things....going to certain places in the house...etc.

I do think they are very intelligent creatures. And honestly....no one really knows if they have emotions. I mean....who am I to say they don't.

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Originally Posted by Ham

I see all you guys points, but I dont honestly think you can say that snakes have no emotions, or that they do for sure, there is really no way to tell either way, evidence for either idea is purely objective and is colored by our own perceptions, so it really comes down to what u want to believe, some people believe they are instinctual automatons, and others believe they can experience atleast something that could be called "emotion"...

It has been shown in tests that Komodo Dragons exhibit play behaviour at certain times, admittedly they also like to eat eachother, lol. So who knows? maybe some snakes get a kick out of warm smelly humans, there is no way to tell...

I will tell you one pet that doesnt seem like the best canidate for emotion, and that would be my tarantulas, they do however change demeanor, I have noticed that on some days they are just pissy, and others they can be relaxed, is that emotion ? Who knows?!

Anyway I am getting off point here, the original point was that people who say snakes dont feel emotion could be just as wrong as the people who say they do, we cannot easily prove either theory...

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Actually, we can prove that reptiles (or your pet spiders) do not have emotion. While it's true that brain SIZE doesn't determine function, brain STRUCTURE does. Reptiles simply don't have the parts of the brain necessary to experience emotion. Triune brain theory may be the easiest way to understand how our brains differ from reptile brains, if you're interested in learning more about it. In any case, reptiles have the most basic brain components, but that's about it. Sorry to burst your bubble.

But how can you say that? They have the ability to get mad....they have the ability to get scared.....why not the ability to be happy? Why not the ability to feel other things? Do I think they feel like us....NO.....but either do dogs. Not like we do! From a scientific avenue.... I think that we underestimate animals and reptiles all the time. We are learning new things about all sorts of species everyday and the capablities they have. Who are we to say they don't....I mean.....I have never experienced being a snake and the bottom line it has NOT been proven!!

Now with that being said....I am totally over the top with my snakes and I admitt it openly. But I see them with their favorite spots in the house that they know are there. Henry loves to go behind the bookcase...same bookcase everyday. Elizabeth always goes for the legos and rummages around in them. Sam...she loves the stairs and always goes to the stairs. So this ...tells me....that they have a memory of where things are....and what they like.

I dunno....Im just saying!! ;) Again my disclaimer.....I overly love and adore everyone and everything in my house. Just me :P

The way it was described to me and how I recall reading it is this. It may not be accurate, but makes sense to me. I am no means a brain surgeon (no pub intended ha).

The feeling of comfort, security, defensiveness, etc are all instincts that are from a different part of the brain. The part of the brain that is responsible for sentimental emotions (love, hate, happy, jealous, etc), our snakes lack.

They could have a 5 lb brain the size of a grapefruit, but if they lacked that part of the brain, they won't have those emotions.

i.e, a lot of behavioral issues in humans can be attested to damage or imbalances in parts of the brain that control said emotions.

So whether we like it or not, the part of a brain that controls said emotions (love, hate, jealousy, etc is nothing more than chemicals released in your brain) simply do not exist in our snakes.


There is nothing wrong developing an attachment to your snake and giving your snake perceived emotions. I do it :)

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Are you being sarcastic? Plants can't feel emotions.

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No i was not sarcastic,it is proven that plants feel,plants listening to music for example grow faster and better.plants witch you speak nice 2 aswell develop better and faster,than those that recive curses bad words and negativtyi,it is scientificaly proven,you should google it,haven"t you heard of a bonzay tree?my snake loves me...

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

But how can you say that? They have the ability to get mad....they have the ability to get scared.....why not the ability to be happy? Why not the ability to feel other things? Do I think they feel like us....NO.....but either do dogs. Not like we do! From a scientific avenue.... I think that we underestimate animals and reptiles all the time. We are learning new things about all sorts of species everyday and the capablities they have. Who are we to say they don't....I mean.....I have never experienced being a snake and the bottom line it has NOT been proven!!

Now with that being said....I am totally over the top with my snakes and I admitt it openly. But I see them with their favorite spots in the house that they know are there. Henry loves to go behind the bookcase...same bookcase everyday. Elizabeth always goes for the legos and rummages around in them. Sam...she loves the stairs and always goes to the stairs. So this ...tells me....that they have a memory of where things are....and what they like.

I dunno....Im just saying!! ;) Again my disclaimer.....I overly love and adore everyone and everything in my house. Just me :P

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The Fight or Flight system is present in the reptile brain, as it is in all animals. We may assign the name "mad" to a reptile exibiting aggressive behaviour, but he is not experiencing anger, he is just reacting to the situation using their simple, instinctive brain. That's the bottom line. It's not about underestimating the animals, it's about years of studying brain structure and activation patterns. I would say humans tend to anthropomorphize and overestimate animal brains, more than we underestimate them.

Also, memory and emotion are two totally different things. Memory/learning in snakes would be formed with a heavy reliance on conditioning; so if your snake that "likes" the bookcase initially found the bookcase and felt safe, it is likely to return to that same place in order to again feel safe.

I know you want to believe snakes can feel and reason, I wish so much that we were able to communicate with all our pets so we could ask them if they were happy in their homes, if they needed anything, etc. but that's really not the case. We may not know much about the human brain, but the reptile brain predates ours by about 200 millions years. It is considerably less complex, and contains only the parts of the brain necessary to provide basic life support and function.

As for plants liking music... Good grief... While we may not understand why music makes plants grow differently, or termites work at different speeds, etc. PLANTS DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS. They don't have any means of decoding auditory stimuli! They don't even have a central nervous system for petes sakes... Please don't tell me anyone thinks that music makes plants grow because they "like" it -_-

It is most likely that it has something to do with frequency and vibration; this explains both why music played for a little while is fine but if it is played for too long will kill the plants, and also while nice, quiet compliments are better than yelling, harsh sounds. The design flaw in the studies I have read on plants and music is that I've never seen a study where the control was just random noise with similar qualities to the music. In any case, plants don't feel. Really. Honestly. And your table doesn't mind if your plate is hot. And carrots don't cry when you take one of their friends and eat them.

Your XBOX, however, does have emotion, and if you leave it on for too long it gets very hot and angry, and can clearly convey this emotion by flashing red rings at you and then dying, costing you hundreds of dollars to replace it. Trust me.

Oh, and also, what the heck do bonsai trees have to do with music? Bonsai trees are created by wrapping wire around a baby tree to restrict its growth... They don't make them by playing Kung Fu Fighting over and over. But maybe I missed something there.

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject (or many other subjects for that matter), but I don't know how much we (as humans) understand other animals. I think OUR REALITY IS OUR PERCEPTION. We cannot undestand that which is beyond our perception. I know this is getting deep, so I'm sorry.

If you lived in the jungle and never saw an airplane, what would you perceive this thing to be? I don't know, because I know what an airplane is and can't understand their perception.

If you lived on the top of a mountain and you saw a fish for the first time, what would you think of the fish? I don't know, because I know what a fish is and can't understand their perception. And I'm just talking about another human. Now, we're talking about reptiles.

Do we conclude that reptiles perceive as we do? Do we believe that everything that makes you a person has to pertain to what makes a reptile a reptile?

Okay now it's really getting deep. But I don't know if we (meaning the human race) actually understand as much of the world as we think we do. We perceive things in the human sense, but do we really know what's going on. Because we are at the top of what we believe to be the evolutionary charts, we pat ourselves on the back, telling ourselves how much we know and we are better off for it. But I think the animals have it much better than we do. How many of you can find north or south without the use of a compass? How many of us could survive without our manmade tools? Ever heard the word horse sense? They know where to step and stop short of that rattlesnake without seeing it. I can keep on going with examples, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

We know what we know and convienently try to surround everything with that knowledge.

:soapbx::soapbx::soapbx:
Jim Smith

To back up the flower argument, when plucked from the ground a flower releases distress signals out to all other plants. Plants are also said to recognize people and detect lies. (http://pureinsight.org/node/1496) A snake may be a cold-blooded animal, on that runs on instinct. However, I think it is a bit arrogant of humans to say that a snake cannot feel. Can you recall a time you were a snake? Do you remember how you felt? No, I didn't think so. I do not think that anyone can clearly mark that snake instinct ends before it reaches into the fields of emotional instinct. Emotional instinct, such as the defensive nature a female displays over her offspring. Snakes may not be able to love in our terms of the word. A snake will not share your bed, make you coffee, or buy you chocolates. A snake can, however, recognize someone they are more comfortable with and act accordingly. The expectations of a cold-blooded animals emotions are being drawn to high here. Of course a snake cannot love. However, I do believe that all animals (snakes included) have the ability to feel a smaller, more basic set of emotions. Like Jim said, there are a lot of things in the world we do not understand. When you assume, you make an ASS out of yoU and ME.

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Originally Posted by The_Argument

I once stumbled upon a threw with a poll Does your snake love you?
Alot of the responses where it's imposable for a reptile to you love you,they lack the brain power to do so,So if your theroy is that snakes/reptiles are creatures of instinct and don't give two [flips] who handle or care for them because they can only feel pleasure fear pain,That being said my theory is a snake in particular doesn't care who cares for it who provides for it that if say a ball python was with me for 10 years that we would have no connection what so ever that that snake could be passed from person to person care and it would not know the difference,i find it insane to think that a snake does not come accustom to one person or crave attention,


Discuss :confused: :rolleye2:

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You are mixing two separate issues together. Your comment is kinda like saying humans can't see heat. I find that hard to believe since they clearly don't like being set on fire.

Lets say you have two people that you don't love that want to go for a ride in your new car. You only have room for one though. Do you choose the person who is wearing deodorant or the one who is not wearing deodorant. A snake could recognize (a talent that is unrelated to love) the person who has cared for it for years vs the new person. Its going to be calmer with its keeper than the new person. All of this is unrelated to the ability to love.

There is a difference between learning and conditioning.

You can argue all you want, but the fact is... a snake's brain does not have the complexity to feel emotion as we perceive them.

You can get as philosophical as you want. You can say we don't know what snakes feel because we aren't snakes. But emotions are tied to certain parts of the physical brain. It has been scientifically proven over and over. And snakes do not have that part of the brain. Snakes have an extremely primitive brain that is controlled by millions of years of instinctual reactions. It simply does not have the physicality to produce happy, sad, jealousy, anger, etc.

But, who am I to take away someone's wish that their snake reciprocated their feelings towards it. If it makes you feel better to think that a snake has emotions, go for it. If it makes you feel better to think that we don't understand a snakes brain, because it isn't a human brain...then that's fine (although the makeup of a snakes brain is found in the human brain and does control the same basic survival instincts. We just have a highly evolved brain that has grown to allow development of the areas that are able to process advanced complexities, such as emotion, problem solving, etc).

There is nothing wrong with personifying your snake. As long as you are taking proper care of your snake, whether you are motivated by hopes of appreciation or not, then it doesn't matter.

What matters is that you love your snake, not that it loves you. :)

Here's a quick video that I did to show that snakes do show emotions. :gj:

YouTube - Snakes DO show emotions

:weirdface:weirdface:weirdface

This has been discussed a thousand times, you should have just dredged up one of the old horses and beat it around for a bit, the answer is and always will be THEY DON'T HAVE EYEBROWS!!!! So they can't show you how they feel.... It is sad really I would like to know when my snake is confused or scared or in the mood for some sweet sweet rat.

Mike

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Originally Posted by hoax

This has been discussed a thousand times, you should have just dredged up one of the old horses and beat it around for a bit, the answer is and always will be THEY DON'T HAVE EYEBROWS!!!! So they can't show you how they feel.... It is sad really I would like to know when my snake is confused or scared or in the mood for some sweet sweet rat.

Mike

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Not beating a dead horse. Just putting another nail in the coffin ;) :D

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Originally Posted by Nate

Here's a quick video that I did to show that snakes do show emotions. :gj:

YouTube - Snakes DO show emotions

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Proof is undeniable. That snake is very emotional. Brought a tear to me eye.

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Originally Posted by Heathertoft

My snakes (including the one I'm snake-sitting right now here) do not love me. One actively dislikes my presence. The other two do are neutral...they do not perceive me as a threat, nor am I anything that merits much attention. I'm pretty sure my Ball Python, Macchiato, views me as nothing more than the Largish Warm Perch/Branch I Sometimes Occupy That Makes Heartbeaty Sounds And Might Possibly Be A Large, Harmless Animal Of Some Kind.

And I am fine with that. ;)

I did not get my snakes with the desire or need for them to love me, or like me, or know I exist as an entity all my own. I love THEM, and name them, and sing to them even though they can't hear me (little Neheb, the charcoal Corn Snake I'm snake-sitting for, has his own theme song now: "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine...you make me happy, because you're gray...yer a snake an' can't hear me say I love you, but I sing it to you anyway!") and otherwise slather them with affection and consider it a major breakthrough when Bowline, my Pueblan Milk Snake, doesn't musk at the mere hint of my presence.

I am emotionally mature enough not to NEED my pets to love me. I love them unconditionally, and that means I require nothing more or less of them than for them to be content, comfortable and well-cared-for.

Anyone who gets a snake expecting it to love them is in for a shock, they aren't mammals and unlike a dog, who modifies it's behaviour (for good or ill) based on what it thinks it's human companion wants, my snakes will take no action to express affection...and likely can't feel affection as we know it.

However, being human, I felt an emotional response when I re-designed Macchiato's enclosure, gently set him inside it, and watched him look around, tongue-flick for two seconds, then zoom back into my hands and up my arm with a supprising ammount of speed.

I felt emotionally as if he were saying, "I like you." Intellectually, I know the truth: he was just opting for a familar perch/branch (MY ARM) than what had become an unfamilar place to be.

And, again, I'm totally okay with it being a very one-sided relationship. :)

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This is the best explanation on this subject ever (IMO) when the next person beats on this horse this post should be pasted and the thread locked.

Mike

It's kinda like asking anyone how many demensions are there. Most will say 3, some will say 4, with time being the 4th. But is the definitive answer? Well, we (humans) say there's 4, so it must be 4. But is it?

I know there is at least one more, known as the 5th Demension. Enjoy the song and the clothing.;)

Jim Smith


YouTube - The 5th Demension "Stoned Soul Picnic" Ed Sullivan

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Originally Posted by hoax

This is the best explanation on this subject ever (IMO) when the next person beats on this horse this post should be pasted and the thread locked.

Mike

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Whoa now...hold your horses. This is a pleasant and civil conversation. If it offends you, don't read it and go on to the next subject. There can be merit to this discussion. I don't know what, what maybe. It's all in fun. Lets learn to relax and enjoy each other's opinion. We must come to a place we're we can not only tolerate each others annoying drivel, but relish in the fact that we all can come together to discuss any subject.

Oops, times up, that will be $350 and you can check with my secretary to schedule next week's appointment. ;)

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject (or many other subjects for that matter), but I don't know how much we (as humans) understand other animals. I think OUR REALITY IS OUR PERCEPTION. We cannot undestand that which is beyond our perception. I know this is getting deep, so I'm sorry.

If you lived in the jungle and never saw an airplane, what would you perceive this thing to be? I don't know, because I know what an airplane is and can't understand their perception.

If you lived on the top of a mountain and you saw a fish for the first time, what would you think of the fish? I don't know, because I know what a fish is and can't understand their perception. And I'm just talking about another human. Now, we're talking about reptiles.

Do we conclude that reptiles perceive as we do? Do we believe that everything that makes you a person has to pertain to what makes a reptile a reptile?

Okay now it's really getting deep. But I don't know if we (meaning the human race) actually understand as much of the world as we think we do. We perceive things in the human sense, but do we really know what's going on. Because we are at the top of what we believe to be the evolutionary charts, we pat ourselves on the back, telling ourselves how much we know and we are better off for it. But I think the animals have it much better than we do. How many of you can find north or south without the use of a compass? How many of us could survive without our manmade tools? Ever heard the word horse sense? They know where to step and stop short of that rattlesnake without seeing it. I can keep on going with examples, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

We know what we know and convienently try to surround everything with that knowledge.

:soapbx::soapbx::soapbx:
Jim Smith

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You're entitled to your opinion, but let me try to explain why your opinion is wrong ;)

What you're arguing is completely unrelated to snakes having emotion. Snakes emotions are not a matter of relativity and perception. It is fine to ask philisophical questions like "what would we think of _____ if we had never seen one" but a snake doesn't have the capacity to even form thoughts like that. They have no cortex! They have no ability to construct abstract thoughts. Their reactions to stimuli are based on the fight or flight reflex. IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO GO OUT ON A LIMB you could say that snakes can express two emotions; anger and fear. Either their brain sends out a message that says "get aggressive" or it sends out a message that says "run the heck away". Or they can stay neutral. That's it.

I guess I have trouble understanding why "They don't have that part of their brain" isn't a good enough explanation... It's not a matter of we just can't imagine what it's like to think like a snake; it's that snakes lack the physical capability to 'think'.

How about this way. It's like if I said "Pigs can fly"; but pigs can't fly, they don't have wings; "No, see, pigs can fly, they just maybe fly differently than we can imagine them flying". See how rediculous that sounds? Now how about "Snakes can feel"; but snakes can't feel, they don't have that part of their brain; "No, see..."

I dunno, believe what you want, just have some PHYSICAL evidence to back it up.

As for kremmel's post about plants... What a load of crap. Like... Common, seriously? Backster is a crackpot with no scientific training. His experiments have been recreated numerous times with strict control for extraneous variables and yielded no statistically significant results each and every time, to which Backster always responds that the scientists "misunderstood" something about his theory. There's a reason his work hasn't been widespread even though it's been around for over 40 years; because it's not true.

Also, wth was up with that whole dimensions thing? There are three dimensions. X, Y, and Z. You know why there are only three dimensions? Because the concept of dimensions is a human invention. So really, asking whether snakes have emotions is nothing like asking nonsensical questions about "5th dimensions". That one just confused the hell out of me :S

Either way, loving this thread, keep the responses coming.

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Originally Posted by MustBeSatan

You're entitled to your opinion, but let me try to explain why your opinion is wrong ;)

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If its an opinion, it can't be wrong.

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What you're arguing is completely unrelated to snakes having emotion. Snakes emotions are not a matter of relativity and perception. It is fine to ask philisophical questions like "what would we think of _____ if we had never seen one" but a snake doesn't have the capacity to even form thoughts like that. They have no cortex! They have no ability to construct abstract thoughts. Their reactions to stimuli are based on the fight or flight reflex. IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO GO OUT ON A LIMB you could say that snakes can express two emotions; anger and fear. Either their brain sends out a message that says "get aggressive" or it sends out a message that says "run the heck away". Or they can stay neutral. That's it.

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See that's where you're thinking like a human again. You're putting human sense into a non-human scenerio. We believe what we perceive to be the truth. Just like many years ago, we as a civilization knew the Earth was flat, now we know differently. We've learned beyond our perception.

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I guess I have trouble understanding why "They don't have that part of their brain" isn't a good enough explanation... It's not a matter of we just can't imagine what it's like to think like a snake; it's that snakes lack the physical capability to 'think'.

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Again, you're equating human knowledge with what could be. I'm asking you to think outside the box. Just because we investigate something and because of our knowledge base, we say something has to be this or that. Who's to say we're just thinking the Earth is still flat?

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How about this way. It's like if I said "Pigs can fly"; but pigs can't fly, they don't have wings; "No, see, pigs can fly, they just maybe fly differently than we can imagine them flying". See how rediculous that sounds? Now how about "Snakes can feel"; but snakes can't feel, they don't have that part of their brain; "No, see..."

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No this is not the same. Pigs can't fly or have never made it known to us. Therefore we perceive pigs can't fly. In order to have flight, animals need to be endowed with some type of wing structure. Since pigs do not have these, they cannot fly. But a snake has a brain, it may not be constructed in a way that we can understand its function. We try to put our human understanding on the line and say that since we need to have this or that and a snake does not have either, therefore they can't have feelings. Well who's to say? Why can't we realize that just because we don't know something, doesn't make it imposible. Humans discover new things all the time. When did the first boat float on water? When did the first plane fly? When did we realize the Earth was not at the center of the universe? Before all of these discoveries, we knew we had the answers, then something changed. A discovery was made and now we know how to build a boat, build a plane, realize we are just a small blip in the cosmic scheme of things. We make discoveries all the time, then our perceived world changes. Not before the dicovery, but after.

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I dunno, believe what you want, just have some PHYSICAL evidence to back it up.

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Theoritical Physics-Theory of physics. Where the human race learns about things that have never been thought of before. I can ask you the same thing, show me physical proof that a snake can't have feelings? Not what we think we know as fact but actual facts as known by the cosmic beings, otherwise known as God. Just because we think as a race (society) we know the answer, doesn't mean we do. We only perceive the answer by what we can observe. When we are enlightented with unfounded knowledge is the only time we can say we've learned something new. Maybe, we haven't learned the right "stuff" just yet to satisfy your need to percieve actual knowledge.

I know this is a lot of mumbo jumbo, but this is why we need to continue our growth of perceived knowledge. One day, maybe we will actually know everything, but my guess is that if this day were to come, it will be millions of years from now.

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Also, wth was up with that whole dimensions thing? There are three dimensions. X, Y, and Z. You know why there are only three dimensions? Because the concept of dimensions is a human invention. So really, asking whether snakes have emotions is nothing like asking nonsensical questions about "5th dimensions". That one just confused the hell out of me :S

Either way, loving this thread, keep the responses coming.

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Again, you can't think past what you know as fact. Well, lets just say we don't know everything as a race. Could there not be more than 3 dimensions? Some of the greatest people in science today are saying that time is now the 4th dimension. If you believe the string theory, we are in as many as 18 dimensions. Now I won't talk to that fact, because it WAY beyond my understanding. I'm just wanting people to see that just because we think we know the facts, doesn't mean we do. We believe the facts as we know them. A new discover will and has in the past many times, changed our definition of a fact. A fact stays a fact until it is proven not to be a fact.

It is okay that you see your world the way you see it. It is a human fault that many of us are doomed to relive every day. However, I don't accept your reality as the only answer.

As for the 5th demension thing, it's what's called a joke. Did you watch the video?

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

No this is not the same. Pigs can't fly or have never made it known to us. Therefore we perceive pigs can't fly. In order to have flight, animals need to be endowed with some type of wing structure. Since pigs do not have these, they cannot fly. But a snake has a brain, it may not be constructed in a way that we can understand its function. We try to put our human understanding on the line and say that since we need to have this or that and a snake does not have either, therefore they can't have feelings. Well who's to say? Why can't we realize that just because we don't know something, doesn't make it imposible. Humans discover new things all the time. When did the first boat float on water? When did the first plane fly? When did we realize the Earth was not at the center of the universe? Before all of these discoveries, we knew we had the answers, then something changed. A discovery was made and now we know how to build a boat, build a plane, realize we are just a small blip in the cosmic scheme of things. We make discoveries all the time, then our perceived world changes. Not before the dicovery, but after.

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You completely missed my point. You say that Pigs don't have the wing structure necessary to fly. Snakes don't have the BRAIN structure necessary to feel. We used to think the earth was flat, and we know now that it is not. We used to not understand the structure of the brain, and now we know a whole lot about it. One of the things we know is that there is a part of the brain devoted to emotion, and snakes don't have it.

So you see, we have discovered that snakes can't feel, just the same as we discovered the world was not flat. Through scientific investigation. The proof is there, the physical, scientific proof is there.

I just noticed this comment:

"I can ask you the same thing, show me physical proof that a snake can't have feelings?"

So here ya go.

http://www.buffalostate.edu/orgs/bcp...cs/triune.html

The brain, devided into its evolutionary milestones as according to triune brain theory. Reptiles only have the first part, conviniently called the "Reptilian Complex", which DOES NOT have any of the parts necessary to feel emotion. Those parts are present in the Limbic brain (i.e. the amygdala), which evolved in mammals. Hope that helps further your understanding of what we know about the brain.

“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be." -Shel Silverstein

:)

Again, we know what we think we know. That is until a new discovery allows us to transend the known facts. I do not deny what you're quoting, but is this the true fact or just a percieved fact that will change when a new discovery has been made?

Jim Smith