The good 'ol blue eyed lucy complex

I need some help...

I so far understand the basic idea that breeding lessers, mojaves, het russos, butters, phantoms, mochas to each other gives you a 25% chance of a BEL. And do ALL of these when bred to another of their own always have the same chance of making a BEL too?

What are specials, and mystics? How do they work? What do they look like?

Where did the lesser platinum come from? I remember reading it came from platinums or something...? Or does it just resemble them?

What is it I hear about phantoms and mystics being the same thing?

Are there any other BEL-making mutations I have missed?
All help appreciated!:D

Wow, okie dokie...

Pretty sure you listed all the het BELs... And yeah, they would all have a 25% chance of producing a BEL if bred in any combination with each other.

As far as "What are specials, and mystics? How do they work? What do they look like?" Goes... Mystics are a morph... Specials? I'm not sure on this one, maybe someone else knows what "Special" bp you might be referencing.

The original Platinum was imported by RDR in 1999, and the offspring it produced were called Lesser Platinum because they weren't quite as ...Platinum... as the... Platinum... Erm... In any case, Davis theorised that there was something else involved in the genetics of the original Platinum, perhaps a simple recessive morph as well as the Lesser Platinum gene. Anyways, Lesser Platinum is now a well established morph, and as far as I know (although I learn from that there "intarweb" so I may not know much) there is only one "Platinum"; the original RDR import.

Um, so now we went back to the mystics... And um... It's sorta like the Candy and the Toffee, if you're familiar with them... Two morphs that look an awful lot like one another but that haven't been tested much to prove it (last I heard it was decided based on the Toffee offspring that the Candy and the Toffee are most likely one and the same). Or so I understand it.

You didn't miss any, unless some exist that we don't know of yet (or I am unaware of, but I HIGHLY doubt it, because I asked Google, and Google knows everything.)

I guess the moral of the story is, Google is great, and posting a bazillion different rapid-fire questions on forums is less great. Hope this helped clear up some confusion.

From what I understand specials are part of the platty complex much like the super stripe. With lessers they make platinums, or platty daddies, with butters they make butter daddies, with mojaves they make crystals, and I am sure they will react with phantoms if it is ever tried. This is mainly a theory of mine, but I have done my research and it is accurate to what I have learned for myself. ~Caylan.S.~

I think "hidden" is the version of the gene (allele) that combines with lesser to make platy. It's perhaps the oddest member of this complex in that both the hets with normal and even the homozygous hidden apparently look normal. It's just that when combined with lesser, hidden makes platy.

I understand that special is a visual morph (and another allele of this complex) and when combined with mojave makes crystal. Also unlike hidden the homozygous special is a stunning morph.

Mystic and phantom might be the same and are in this complex. Phantom with lesser makes a leucistic (karma) but most of the other combos so far involving these two seem to make darker animals.

Hi,

I wish I understood the hidden gene. :tears:

My lesser came from a daughter of the other platinum ( a female owned by E.B.Noah in Africa ) so he is F2 by my understanding.

Now if I only knew if that made him a 50% possible het for hidden or (if it is an allele ) definately not carrying the hidden gene purely because he is a lesser. :(

It would really simplify the future projects he could be involved in. :rolleyes:

I did ask if I could buy one of the normal looking offspring from the platymamma but was told Noah doesn't bother to keep these seperate and just sells them as normals. :taz:


dr del

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Originally Posted by Inugohan

From what I understand specials are part of the platty complex much like the super stripe. With lessers they make platinums, or platty daddies, with butters they make butter daddies, with mojaves they make crystals, and I am sure they will react with phantoms if it is ever tried. This is mainly a theory of mine, but I have done my research and it is accurate to what I have learned for myself. ~Caylan.S.~

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Well this statement is all wrong except where the Special X Mojave makes a Crystal. To my understanding the only BEL complex snakes that the specials have been crossed with is the Original with a Mojave by Tom Baker and the Lesser by BHB. The Platty Daddy has been the only Father to any other Platty Daddy.

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Originally Posted by Royal Morphz

The Platty Daddy has been the only Father to any other Platty Daddy.

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Not true. Platinums have been made multiple times with normal looking offspring sired by platinums (and in one instance in Europe, a lesser bred to what was thought to be a normal). Ralph Davis has also made butter platties. I am not aware of any other BEL complex cross with the hidden gene, though Ralph may have done more last year since a lot of his clutches weren't revealed to the public.

Sorry I should have been a bit clearer I was meaning that the Special is in no way involved in the Platty Daddy making

I so far understand the basic idea that breeding lessers, mojaves, het russos, butters, phantoms, mochas to each other gives you a 25% chance of a BEL. And do ALL of these when bred to another of their own always have the same chance of making a BEL too?

Chance are the same yes. but not all will make a BEL
lesser/mojave/het russo/butter/phantoms/mocha/mystic bred to a lesser/mojave/het russo/butter/mocha will make a BEL.

phantom x phantom makes super phantom
mystic x mystic makes super mystic (guess they look like super phantoms tho I can't really recall seeing a picture)

What are specials, and mystics? How do they work? What do they look like?

already explained.

Where did the lesser platinum come from? I remember reading it came from platinums or something...? Or does it just resemble them?

listen to Russ Lawson, genetics are pretty simple, the "hidden" gene is part of the BEL complex, when combined with the lesser gene it makes a platinum, problem is the "hidden" gene doesn't appear to be visual on its own, but if you bred a platinum to a normal, you know all the normal looking babies are "hidden" gene snakes.

What is it I hear about phantoms and mystics being the same thing?

just like butters and lessers they are the same thing. different lines of the same morph. they still make the same "supers", combos with other morphs behave the same. just like a lemon pastel and a bell pastel. same morph diffferent line.

Are there any other BEL-making mutations I have missed?

not to my knowledge

As it appears to me(again I'm just making theories at this point) the het daddy gene is more of a Dilute hidden gene, that only becomes apparent when bred with one of the luecy complex genes. So I tried to make a connection between the "special" and the "het daddy" gene possibly being one in the same. As far as I know, special's have not been crossed with lessers, and het daddy hasn't been crossed with mojo. So I can't make the call, but this is my input on it. It's not to say that my statement was wrong, as it's really just a hypothesis. Anyway, just thought I would back myself, so I'm no longer seen as a stupid noob who doesn't know what he's talking about. ~Caylan.S.~

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Originally Posted by Inugohan

As it appears to me(again I'm just making theories at this point) the het daddy gene is more of a Dilute hidden gene, that only becomes apparent when bred with one of the luecy complex genes. So I tried to make a connection between the "special" and the "het daddy" gene possibly being one in the same. As far as I know, special's have not been crossed with lessers, and het daddy hasn't been crossed with mojo. So I can't make the call, but this is my input on it. It's not to say that my statement was wrong, as it's really just a hypothesis. Anyway, just thought I would back myself, so I'm no longer seen as a stupid noob who doesn't know what he's talking about. ~Caylan.S.~

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The bolded section is wrong I posted it before BHB has done the Special to Lesser making a Crystal that looks a bit different from Tom Baker's Mojo to Special Crystal.

Really? Fair enough, thank you for correcting me. Now if only I was able to see it haha. Thanks again, sorry if I through anyone off. ~Caylan.S.~

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Originally Posted by Inugohan

As it appears to me(again I'm just making theories at this point) the het daddy gene is more of a Dilute hidden gene, that only becomes apparent when bred with one of the luecy complex genes. So I tried to make a connection between the "special" and the "het daddy" gene possibly being one in the same. As far as I know, special's have not been crossed with lessers, and het daddy hasn't been crossed with mojo. So I can't make the call, but this is my input on it. It's not to say that my statement was wrong, as it's really just a hypothesis. Anyway, just thought I would back myself, so I'm no longer seen as a stupid noob who doesn't know what he's talking about. ~Caylan.S.~

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text from ralph..."when I was breeding "platty sib" x "platty sib" trying to isolate the "hypo platty gene".......those breedings produced 4 clutches with a total of 19 normal looking offspring produced....."

so unless he missed on the super 19 times in a row, the special gene has a visual super form. the "hypo platty gene" as he calls it appears to not have a visual super form, if it has one at all.

Of course they should be called whatever Ralph decides to call them but I did read once about a "dilute" mutation in rats that only showed up with other mutations so for a while I was calling the hiddens dilute.

I think the normal looking baby from RDR's platy X platy breeding was a female. By the allele theory it should be a known homozygous hidden (there where probably others in the nineteen 33% chance homozygous hiddens mentioned). She might be close to breeding size by now or a homozygous hidden male may have been identified from the earlier pairings.

Would be cool to be able to produce clutches of 100% platy. It would be sort of like the superstripe combo in that it would take a dissimilar pair to produce eggs 100% chance for the combo. For the best platy odds normal looking homozygous hidden X lesser\lesser BEL = 100% platy. For a super superstripe project homozygous specter\whirlwind X ivory = 100% superstripe. You couldn't get the 100% odds from breeding two superstripes or two platy together.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think the normal looking baby from RDR's platy X platy breeding was a female. By the allele theory it should be a known homozygous hidden (there where probably others in the nineteen 33% chance homozygous hiddens mentioned). She might be close to breeding size by now or a homozygous hidden male may have been identified from the earlier pairings.

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25% homozygous :) you can't tell homozygous from heterozygous from normal.

Your right! I was thinking of 33% chance homozygous pinstripes from a pinstripe X pinstripe breeding where at least you can exclude the 25% chance normals. With hidden X hidden as you pointed out you can't tell any of the three genotypes (homozygous normal, heterozygous hidden, and homozygous hidden) apart. Now that's an interesting project!

Aye aye aye....brain strain. Its a sunday morning too :oops:

so... let me get this straight, the Blue-Eyed Leucistic complex is the group of mutations which all react with each other, producing a homozygous form when crossed, kinda like motley and stripe in corn snakes. They're allelic?

But the appearance of the homozygous form will vary depending on what makes it up, and many of the crosses produce a white snake- the BEL, which give the 'complex' its name.

Some crosses haven't been done yet so you cant be sure they definately do produce a homozygous form but they probably do.

Mystic x any of the regulars ie lesser, mojave, het russo, mocha, buter will make a BEL. But its probably the same thing as a phantom. Phantoms when crossed with any in the list above will make BELS too, but not with each other (super phantom), they make a darker snake with pattern. Because its probably the same as mystic, then you can guess that a supermystic will look the same, or very similar.

Butter and lesser are really the same thing, just different lines...

I'm still not up to date on the specials though. Apparently they make a 'crystal' which i gather is not a BEL when bred with mojaves since it has colour/pattern. So since they react with mojave that makes them part of the BEL complex....but are arent thought to produce Blue eyed lucys when crossed with anything, given how they have so far reacted with a mojave?

With the lesser x lesser, lesser x butter, mojave x lesser, etc etc basic crossings the white snakes produced are simply called Blue Eyed Leucistics. Theyre not given individual names. Yet the homozygous Vin russo is a white diamond, and a homozygous mocha a latte....so is a vin russo x something else eg lesser just a regular Blue eyed lucy and isnt called a white diamond too or anything?

Are their any other names then for any of the homozygous forms of various crosses that havent been mentioned so far, therefore excluding lattes, white diamonds and crystals?

That is all. :O:gj:

Damn i just tried editing my post and got told it was mre than 10 minutes after so couldnt. arrrgh!who invented that rule, it takes time to write sometimes!!!

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Originally Posted by Inugohan

From what I understand specials are part of the platty complex much like the super stripe. With lessers they make platinums, or platty daddies, with butters they make butter daddies, with mojaves they make crystals, and I am sure they will react with phantoms if it is ever tried. This is mainly a theory of mine, but I have done my research and it is accurate to what I have learned for myself. ~Caylan.S.~

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I may be wrong and it may have been answered earlier. But specials are a mojo like morph that when bred together make crystals or was it bred to a mojo i dont know the whole story. When I say mojo like I mean they came from breeding a mojo to a apparent normal or something like that again I do not know the whole back story. Like I said I may be referring to a different "special" but those are the only ones I know of.

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Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

I'm still not up to date on the specials though. Apparently they make a 'crystal' which i gather is not a BEL when bred with mojaves since it has colour/pattern. So since they react with mojave that makes them part of the BEL complex....but are arent thought to produce Blue eyed lucys when crossed with anything, given how they have so far reacted with a mojave?

With the lesser x lesser, lesser x butter, mojave x lesser, etc etc basic crossings the white snakes produced are simply called Blue Eyed Leucistics. Theyre not given individual names. Yet the homozygous Vin russo is a white diamond, and a homozygous mocha a latte....so is a vin russo x something else eg lesser just a regular Blue eyed lucy and isnt called a white diamond too or anything?

Are their any other names then for any of the homozygous forms of various crosses that havent been mentioned so far, therefore excluding lattes, white diamonds and crystals?

That is all. :O:gj:

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your doing pretty good so far, best way I can think of to explain specials is their like yellowbellys, hard as crap to tell apart from a normal(if you can at all), but when combined with other things or themselves, they make cool stuff. I think specials are pretty new so they just need more time, have to see what a lesser/special looks like and what not. hopefully someone will give them another name.

all those names are just names they really don't mean anything and their all BELs. all you know is when your buying a white diamond, its a russo x russo. not a cross of any others. a russo x lesser would just be a BEL. but when buying any BEL your going to want to know what the genetics are behind it anyways... so giving these select few names seems kinda pointless to me.

phantom x lesser is called a karma. hidden x lesser is a platinum. about all I can think of.

Thanks, so what makes a mystic potion?

Do all the BEL complex snakes have clear bellies?

Right on with most everything, just a few comments:

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Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

...
the Blue-Eyed Leucistic complex is the group of mutations which all react with each other, producing a homozygous form when crossed, kinda like motley and stripe in corn snakes. They're allelic?
...

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I've been looking for a name for the combinations of different mutant alleles for a while and haven't found one yet. I would not call them "homozygous" as technically they are a heterozygous because the two copies of the gene don't match (the definition of heterozygous). It's just that most of what we call "hets" are one mutant with one normal and in this case it's one mutant with a different mutant of the same gene and no room for a normal copy.

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Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

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Mystic x any of the regulars ie lesser, mojave, het russo, mocha, buter will make a BEL. But its probably the same thing as a phantom. Phantoms when crossed with any in the list above will make BELS too, but not with each other (super phantom), they make a darker snake with pattern. Because its probably the same as mystic, then you can guess that a supermystic will look the same, or very similar.
...

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So far I think the only mystic crosses with other members of this complex are mystic\\mojave = mystic potion and mystic\\mystic = super mystic. Both of those are dark snakes. If mystic = phantom which so far seems very likely then mystic\\lesser would be expected to be a BEL (karma) like phantom\\lesser. I've not heard of phantom\\mojave yet but that would be a good test of the mystic = phantom expectation.

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Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

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I'm still not up to date on the specials though. Apparently they make a 'crystal' which i gather is not a BEL when bred with mojaves since it has colour/pattern. So since they react with mojave that makes them part of the BEL complex....but are arent thought to produce Blue eyed lucys when crossed with anything, given how they have so far reacted with a mojave?
...

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I believe BHB or someone made what they thought was a lesser\\special and it was similar but some different than the mojave\\special = crystal. Don't know if there was any link to be sure it was the same special gene. The inheritance of crystal X normal (50/50 split of special and mojave and no crystals or normals) is another evidence that special is in the complex. The homozygous special has also been made and is a whitish snake that has a lot of yellow as I remember.

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Originally Posted by Skyespirit86

Thanks, so what makes a mystic potion?

Do all the BEL complex snakes have clear bellies?

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Mystic potion is the combination of one copy mystic and from the other parent one copy mojave.

I'd love to know if RDR's hiddens have clear belies. I think all the others are reported to. If not, then the hiddens may well be completely invisible. And even if they do some normals have pretty clear belies.

I've got a clear belly captive hatched girl I'm hoping is something like the mystic that I'm trying to breed to my mojave this year. A breeder near me proved one a few years back to produce BEL with lesser and hopefully will get some mojave cross with that this year to see if his ch girl is phantom/mystic.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Now if I only knew if that made him a 50% possible het for hidden or (if it is an allele ) definately not carrying the hidden gene purely because he is a lesser. :(

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If he's a Lesser, and not a Platinum, he doesn't carry "Daddy/Hidden/Mystery Dilute/Special".

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I did ask if I could buy one of the normal looking offspring from the platymamma but was told Noah doesn't bother to keep these seperate and just sells them as normals. :taz:

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I wonder if you contacted Noah or your supplier well before the next breeding season and specified that you wanted a normal specifically from that female and that you were willing to pay more than "just plain normal" prices for it, if you'd have any luck...

I love this thread!! It makes me smile... I would like to see the lesser special and what ever else special crosses thier are...I've seen the thread with the super special,I've also seen the cinny special,titainum,epic crystal all I can say is OMG!!

taitanium
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s....php?p=1180395
crystal
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...8&postcount=30
super special
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115537

wow, wow, wow im totally confused again.

i know that a normal baby from a platty daddy breeding, carry the hidden gene. when breed to a lesser ull get platty daddys.

and now- what are specials- what makes them?

i know that they- when bread to a mojo, they make crystals- but what makes a special?



please only answer if ur 100% sure. im from germany and everyone posted a different theroie- im totally confused...

a special is a special, and its quite possibly the worst name for a morph lol

ah ok- yeah i agree with the name- its f***** confusing to me.


so the special is a special- just like the pinstripe is a pinstripe- now i get it

i always thoght it would be a product like the hidden gene from a platty breeding...


are the specials for sale for us normal people, or are they so expensive and exclusiv that only breeders like brain from bhb and co. can buy them?

i would like to see the gene working on the mystic potion or the red spectrum. the titanium is so awesome that the special mystic potion should be killer!!!


are there plans to breed the crystal into pattern morphs? like a crystalbee or crystal spinner or so- that would be so cool!!!

I've compiled pictures of the animals in question so figured I'd post for the folks who haven't seen some of them :)

Special
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...nt/special.jpg

Super Special
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...perspecial.jpg

Crystal (Special x Mojave)
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...le/crystal.jpg

Lesser Crystal (Special x Lesser)
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...sercrystal.jpg

Mocha
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...t/hetmocha.jpg

Latte (Super Mocha) pretty much a BEL
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...nant/latte.jpg

Mystic
http://wallflowerherps.weebly.com/up...0_orig.jpg?493

Mystic Potion (Mojave x Mystic)
http://wallflowerherps.weebly.com/up...8_orig.jpg?664

Phantom
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...nt/phantom.jpg

Super Phantom
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...perphantom.jpg

and this is a strange one... Opal Diamond (het Russo x Phantom)
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...paldiamond.jpg

So what are the defining characteristics of the special (the top snake)?

Abigail, thanks, awesome set of pictures.

Is the special\\lesser the one that BHB produced?

Anyone know if anyone has crossed Tom Baker's special line with lesser just to be sure it's the same as what BHB had (not sure BHB's didn't come from Baker but thought maybe it was his own line)?

The reason I'm asking is I saw a baby from a new line combo with mojave that looks like a crystal to me (but now that I see how light the hatchling mystic potion is that is back on the table in my mind). The catch is the breeder has already combined this new line with lesser and produced a white snake, not something crystal looking. Got me wondering if BHB's line might be something different than Baker's special.

As far as identifying a special – I have to defer as I’ve hardly ever even seen pictures of them. The one in this thread does have a look though. I understand it to be subtle so I think they main way to identify one is to cross it with mojave and produce crystal, lol.