Cinny or not?

Am I missing something? I could be wrong, but, this girl does not look like a Cinny. She is listed on Kingsnake for $750. What do you guys think? Cinny or not? It very well could be the lighting in the pic though.

http://market.kingsnake.com/image/1031706.jpg
http://market.kingsnake.com/image/1031705.jpg

Def doesn't look like one to me. Looks normal to me for sure, but I'm not expert.

Looks normal to me too...

The flames don't look right to me and the pattern isn't "just" how I'd expect it to look. Those pictures really aren't the greatest to judge by though.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=45652

Edit, after reviewing the guide and reading this part:

Quote:

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6. Pattern, all Cinnys share a VERY similar pattern. Where the "alien heads" would appear on a normal, Cinnys have one black dot or circle

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I'd have to judge that NOT a cinnamon.

Thanks guys. I thought it was kinda fishy also.

Normal :gj:

It is sad the industry has people like this. Like I said I could be wrong, but, I'm almost positive that is a scam. When attending the show a couple weeks ago, I noticed somebody from my town who is know to run his mouth....He was selling a "male, het with markers". For what? He doesn't even know! He just felt like telling people it was a het I guess. Not to mention when asked if it had sperm plugs, he said he would have his friend pop it. I offered to pop it myself....It was a female!!<--------I guess I felt like ranting!:rolleye2:

I saw that snake on Fauna the other day. A couple people responded saying it was just a normal, then a couple people fired back saying it was a great looking example of an adult cinnamon that browned out. It's sad that there are false advertisers out there, whether or not this one is really false. Easiest thing to do when you see something questionable is move on and find a better example.

WOW. I actually bought this girl. Paid $750.

It's funny that not one expert that put this snake down bothered to ask for belly pictures, or better side pictures, or a close up of her head before they started bashing the quality of the snake.

Well, as I'm holding her in my hand right now I can tell you 100% that she is a cinnamon. She's got nearly the same color, and pattern as my BHB line cinny, but a little richer chocolate color.

Also what is sad is that in the ad it mentioned that she was in shed, but nobody asked if he had pics with her not in shed before jumping to conclusion of her quality.

Basically I find it sad that people who have a good knowledge of BP's but not a certain morph think they're experts in all aspects of BP's. If you don't know don't put down somebody's animals because you're not sure. Ask questions first. Then if it comes out more than "a little fishy" then accuse. Your "a little fishy" turned out to be a Kodak Photo Share camera ( poor quality camera ), mixed with her being in full shed.

So in closing I'd like to thank all of the people that missed out on this absolutely beautiful cinnamon that could actually be mistaken for a black pastel with her color richness, and clear belly so I could get her.

Also when she comes out of shed I'll post high quality pics of her from head to tail as well as her body.

Looking forward to seeing better pictures of her. :)

Glad you're happy with her. That's what matters.

So a "Cinny" that is such a poor example of the morph... so much so that most don't even think it is a Cinny fetched $750?

I smell something a little FISHY.... Not so much a CINNY.... LOL

Glad you're happy with her too - can't wait to see pictures that really show her off. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

So a "Cinny" that is such a poor example of the morph... so much so that most don't even think it is a Cinny fetched $750?

I smell something a little FISHY.... Not so much a CINNY.... LOL

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So you can look a poor PHOTO of any BP in full shed from about 6 feet away and identify any BP?

Maybe some people have nothing better to do than bash other peoples hard work.

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Originally Posted by dturner100

So you can look a poor PHOTO of any BP in full shed from about 6 feet away and identify any BP?

Maybe some people have nothing better to do than bash other peoples hard work.

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Can you post new pics, just out of curiosity?

I am not trying to be mean or anything, but you sound real defensive. As in either you a) are the seller or b) are the buyer, and realize you were scammed. Just seem real defensive to me, that's all.

The important thing is that you are happy with you snake :) I would like to see updated pics though to see how she is doing :) All snakes are special!

btw, color isn't the only thing that makes a Cinnamon. They do have very distinct pattern markings, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dturner100

So you can look a poor PHOTO of any BP in full shed from about 6 feet away and identify any BP?

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Well, this is about a Cinny. In the case of a Cinny, the answer to your question is YES. So could most.

And let me add that IF a Cinny in today's market WERE to fetch $750... Trust me, there would be NO DOUBT that it were in fact a Cinny!

Indeed I apologize for sounding that way. Her eyes are full blue right now. I'll post new photos of her as soon as she comes out of shed.

As for who I am: I'm the buyer ( Dustin Turner in Fort Morgan, CO and the seller or ex-owner is Brian Fontaine of Morph Evolution in northern California ).

Once again I apologize for sounding so defensive, but was just a bit aggrevated that so many people jumped the band wagon when there was so little evidence leading to the "fishy smell".

Do you have the pics that were posted with the ad?

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarin

Looking forward to seeing better pictures of her. :)

Glad you're happy with her. That's what matters.

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x2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

Do you have the pics that were posted with the ad?

Dave

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I would also like to see a pic of the snake and a pic from the ad, since the ad is expired.

Is the only way to put a pic on here by linking to it? Tried uploading, and can't find how.

Load it to Photobucket or similar photo hosting site, and then copy the IMG code and paste it into your post.

Can't wait for the pic.... Congrats...

Alright, I uploaded them to my facebook. Now please if you don't think she's the highest quality of cinny please keep it to yourself, but she is a cinny, and a very sweet one at that.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs425...._1299506_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs425...._4986371_n.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._3199306_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs405...._5855082_n.jpg
She's with my pastel chuck

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs405...._4530204_n.jpg
Very clear belly

So anyway thanks for looking. Enjoy guys.

Thanks for the update.

Wouldn't fit my personal opinion of a high quality Cinny, but glad you are pleased.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. :gj:

She's pretty :)

Chuck is looking pretty gorgeous also hehe

Congrats on your new addition :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dturner100

Now please if you don't think she's the highest quality of cinny please keep it to yourself

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lol.......


it still looks normal to me :oops:

-but that belly shot is cool lookin

it does look normal. If it produce a nice cini female, keep the baby.

I also think it looks normal. But even if she is a cinny, I think you paid way too much for her. She IS pretty, but not worth $750. Sorry to be a party-pooper, but, what can I say, I'm honest. But that is your money, and now this is your snake and if you are happy with her, I guess that is all that matters.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I also think it looks normal. But even if she is a cinny, I think you paid way too much for her. She IS pretty, but not worth $750. Sorry to be a party-pooper, but, what can I say, I'm honest. But that is your money, and now this is your snake and if you are happy with her, I guess that is all that matters.

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Don't forget if he is breeding, trying to find buyers for the offspring from a subpar example is not going to be easy.

If that's her belly, I also have to say normal. Cinnamon-like, but not a cinnamon. My cinnamon has zero black on the belly - the entire belly is clear including the side scutes.

I hope that she proves for you though.

Looking forward to seeing any hatchlings that come from this pairing. Unfortunately, she looks normal to me, too. I have some normals that have clear bellies..she could be Het for some unknown genetic resulting in the clear belly..but I would not bet money that she's a Cinny, because she doesn't have the pattern..it's not just the color..the pattern is always there and she doesn't have it.



http://www.ballpython777.com/cinnamon/cinnamon.html

But I am glad YOU are pleased, the true test is if any Pewters drop from this or future pairings ..then you can say, "I told you so!":)

IMO that looks like a cinny.

do you have a normal? post a pic of her next to a normal.

OK my few :2cent::2cent::2cent: this One Looks very confusing... i had male looking very similar to Your BP and i was concern about him as well. The coloration was almost reddish-brown but because It don't have this distinguish pattern i say that was normal... i should dink him anyway but because moving i put him for adoption. Your Look more cinamonish that mine hopefully she's gonna Prove to You... Till then i say normal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dturner100

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs405...._4530204_n.jpg
Very clear belly

So anyway thanks for looking. Enjoy guys.

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The belly tells the story - that is not a very clear belly, there's pattern on the belly.

Look at item #7 in the Hunter's guide - THAT'S what a cinnamon belly should look like - with NO pattern on it at all.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=45652

Something tells me that this thread is about to get ugly when dturner finally responds back to these posts...

I agree with everyone else. Looks like a cool expensive normal, but I hope I'm wrong. Can't wait to see a Pewter with your new animal.

By the way, are they locking? Usually with too much travel, I was told they tend not to lock until the next season.

I still see a Normal. But.. PLEASE keep us updated on what hatches out - I am very curious to see if we're all wrong or not. Either way she's still a pretty girl. :)

Come on guys and gals. It's threads like this that really bother Big Gunns. They're just not fair to either the seller or the buyer.....especially the seller.

BG can remember when Cinnies first came out and Greg G had them in Daytona. BG stared at them for 10 minutes and swore they looked like normals he had. It's one snake that BG will never say 100% one way or another from a pic.....especially a pic of an adult.....they're even harder.

BG will say this about Jonnyboys Hunter's guide Robin. Even Jon would agree that his parameters for a morph are not "set in stone". If you look at the last pic of the baby that you can see the belly, it looks similar to what this animals does as an adult. It doesn't have the same "flames", but it does have some of the same "look".

Big Gunns isn't gonna say 100% either way on this snake.


There's one question that BG didn't see asked. Was this animal captive born and by whom? Actually you don't need to answer that buyer. You owe us nothing really. If you're happy with the snake that's all that matters.:gj:

Big Gunns didn't really want to post on this thread, but he felt he must.

Alright, No this thread isn't gonna get ugly.

I've seen MANY cinny's that vary alot. She is very distinguishable from any of my normals.

Also as I'm not a veteran in the bp world maybe I'm dead wrong, maybe you are all dead wrong, maybe she's a completely new line of cinny.

Also for the guy that quoted the hunters guide remember there are a few different cinnys and not all have the same style belly or pattern for that matter. My girl has a mojave like pattern.

The point is I like her alot. If she does turn out to be not a cinny in the long run I wouldn't be dissappointed for the fact that she's awesome as far as personality, she's an awesome eater. Next season she'll be ready to breed. I'm hoping to pair her with chuck the pastel in the pic with her.

So anyway I'm happy with her and glad to share her with you guy, and welcome all opinions. Indeed I got pissy on the first day of this post, but I think people are way to fast to jump the gun. I'm sure I wouldn't approve of the quality of each and every snake everybody else owns but they're my opinions and I respect yours as well.

With that it's been a long day ( drove 400 miles for a small colony of asf's ). So good night to my fellow ball-pythons.net friends.

Glad you like her!! Looking forward to updates on her. :)

Nice dinker.

:gj:

Learn something new every day! I'll be looking for more interesting Cinnys from now on and straying from the "tried and true.":gj:

*I have a Het Red that people SWEAR is a normal, but the BREEDER is well known and swears she's a Het Red. I believe the breeder. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Nice dinker.

:gj:

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Mikey....are you bragging about "it" again.:D

Please explain to Big Gunns the need to make that comment. You're being a meanie Mikey and you know it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Come on guys and gals. It's threads like this that really bother Big Gunns. They're just not fair to either the seller or the buyer.....especially the seller.

BG can remember when Cinnies first came out and Greg G had them in Daytona. BG stared at them for 10 minutes and swore they looked like normals he had. It's one snake that BG will never say 100% one way or another from a pic.....especially a pic of an adult.....they're even harder.

BG will say this about Jonnyboys Hunter's guide Robin. Even Jon would agree that his parameters for a morph are not "set in stone". If you look at the last pic of the baby that you can see the belly, it looks similar to what this animals does as an adult. It doesn't have the same "flames", but it does have some of the same "look".

Big Gunns isn't gonna say 100% either way on this snake.


There's one question that BG didn't see asked. Was this animal captive born and by whom? Actually you don't need to answer that buyer. You owe us nothing really. If you're happy with the snake that's all that matters.:gj:

Big Gunns didn't really want to post on this thread, but he felt he must.

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BG, you know I respect your opinion! I will say that in the HG, the other baby's belly was a black pastel, which in my admittedly limited experience tend to NOT have the same clear belly as all the cinnies I've seen! :)

To the new owner, I'm also glad that you're happy with her - that's the most important thing - and I'm a gal, not a guy! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

BG, you know I respect your opinion! I will say that in the HG, the other baby's belly was a black pastel, which in my admittedly limited experience tend to NOT have the same clear belly as all the cinnies I've seen! :)

To the new owner, I'm also glad that you're happy with her - that's the most important thing - and I'm a gal, not a guy! :D

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Yeah, I realize that it was a Black. He(the buyer) does say it looks kinda like a Black....not that BG thinks that matters much. Cinnies and Blacks can be a pain to tell from a pic, even if you see the belly. BG is just trying to say that with an animal like this, nobody can be 100% sure from looking at a pic. Well....maybe someone would bet their life on it, but BG never would. He loves life too much.:banana::banana:

Sorry Robin. Didn't read your name.

First, I am surprised nobody has shouted how dare you not Quarantine the snake, based on the pic you posted with your Pastel:)

Second, I am going to say it probably is a Cinn, but just a C Grade Cinnamon (and no, the C grade does not stand for Cinnamon, but low quality). As for the price, if the buyer and seller are both happy, then it was a fair price. You only need one person who likes your animal and your price to make a sale. Most Cinns have a reddish color to the side patterns, and the nice flames or blushing at the bottom coming up. This snake has the blushing and flames, but I am looking hard to find the red coloration that gives the Cinn its name.

Third, I am surprised (unless it was in the orignal ad, that I did not see) that nobody has brought up the history of this snake, like what is the history? Is it a CH female, is it from a wc clutch, is it from a known line of Cinny and just the ugly duckling baby? If the snake was from a known line, then it probably is a Cinn. If it was a CH animal, it might be, might not be, and I hope it was sold as such. If it was from a WC female that laid her eggs in captivity, and people are guessing what it is, and decided upon cinnamon, that is something totally different.

If it is a genetic Cinnamon, it is a low quality one, in my opinion. That is not the end of the world though, because when you have breeder animals you want your males to look spectacular, and the females to look as good as you can afford at the time of purchase. If you want me to explain this, just ask...
If it is a CH animal, it is a dinker until proven otherwise, in my opinion. If it was wc, or the baby of a wc female, it is probably a dinker or, if there were better examples in the clutch, and there were obvious cinnamons in the clutch, I guess it could be called a cinnamon.

So, what is the snake's history?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

First, I am surprised nobody has shouted how dare you not Quarantine the snake, based on the pic you posted with your Pastel:)

Second, I am going to say it probably is a Cinn, but just a C Grade Cinnamon (and no, the C grade does not stand for Cinnamon, but low quality). As for the price, if the buyer and seller are both happy, then it was a fair price. You only need one person who likes your animal and your price to make a sale. Most Cinns have a reddish color to the side patterns, and the nice flames or blushing at the bottom coming up. This snake has the blushing and flames, but I am looking hard to find the red coloration that gives the Cinn its name.

Third, I am surprised (unless it was in the orignal ad, that I did not see) that nobody has brought up the history of this snake, like what is the history? Is it a CH female, is it from a wc clutch, is it from a known line of Cinny and just the ugly duckling baby? If the snake was from a known line, then it probably is a Cinn. If it was a CH animal, it might be, might not be, and I hope it was sold as such. If it was from a WC female that laid her eggs in captivity, and people are guessing what it is, and decided upon cinnamon, that is something totally different.

If it is a genetic Cinnamon, it is a low quality one, in my opinion. That is not the end of the world though, because when you have breeder animals you want your males to look spectacular, and the females to look as good as you can afford at the time of purchase. If you want me to explain this, just ask...
If it is a CH animal, it is a dinker until proven otherwise, in my opinion. If it was wc, or the baby of a wc female, it is probably a dinker or, if there were better examples in the clutch, and there were obvious cinnamons in the clutch, I guess it could be called a cinnamon.

So, what is the snake's history?

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Glad I read the whole thread before posting. You hit on the 2 things I was thinking and noticed missing. Quarantine and History.

As for the snake she is a Pretty animal. In my opinion she does have Cinny Characterisitics but is definately not a high quality cinny if she is a true cinny.
On the other hand she does look normal to me also.

If you are happy with the animal that is all that really matters. Breed that girl and I hope you prove her out to be what you bought her as.

Actually Big Gunns did ask if it was captive born or not. Then he stated that the buyer owes all you peeps nothing.

Also.....Big Gunns thinks all forums throughout the world need to hire their own personal "Quarantine police". Watcha all think?