What is he... Cinny or B.P.?

I just got a "black pastel" from Skiploder, who originally got him from Robert Seib... he was sold as a black pastel, but we're both suspecting he's actually a cinnamon. I do plan to breed this beautiful boy, so it would be helpful to identify his morph. :oops: We know Robert Seib is a very reputable breeder, but it's possible this one even confused him!

Fyi - he weighs just under 800g @ almost 3 years old (finicky eater), and Skiploder said he was BLACK as a hatchling. I tried to take the photos in different lighting, but don't have the equipment for non-flash pictures... they're pretty close to how he looks in person, though. Here's Dave, and please vote on the poll above:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4884.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4889.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4887.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4898.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4896.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4904.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4902.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4901.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4845.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4848.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/DSCF4855.jpg

P.S. The lighter spots on his head are just tiny pieces of skin, since he shed earlier tonight...

Looks like a Cinnamon to me.

Cinnamon:gj:

One difference between a cinny and a black pastel are the sqiggly markes in the pattern. Meaning the cinny just has the round dots(like a mojave) in the pattern and the Blacks have this sqiuggly marks surrounding the pattern. Yours looks alot like a cinny but he has some squiggly marks associated with the blacks. Then again the head looks more cinny but belly looks more like a black.

I'm leaning black but just not a great example of one.

I would say black from the markings, as already noted.

The black circles in the alien heads with the smudgy marks around them is a trait of black pastels.

Bruce

As is often said, contact the breeder and asked what pairing produced him...

... it there was no cinnie involved in the breeding then it cannot be a cinnie. :confused:

Well, everything BUT the squiggles says cinny to me, and of course the Guide says the squiggles are black pastel.

However, if you scroll to the bottom of the cinny page in the Guide, there is a WC cinny with squiggles, so it could be anybody's guess.

I suggest contacting the breeder to see if he can tell you what pair this snake is from. Then you will know for sure, as Bruce mentioned.

Gale

I have a female black pastel who is very light like yours (I know she is a black pastel since I produced her ;))

Here she is

http://stewartreptiles.com/wordpress...ckpastel08.jpg

http://stewartreptiles.com/wordpress...ckpastel09.jpg

So if you purchase yours as a black pastel it is very possible that it is indeed a black pastel even if not looking like most of them.

Their coloration varies.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Well, everything BUT the squiggles says cinny to me, and of course the Guide says the squiggles are black pastel.

However, if you scroll to the bottom of the cinny page in the Guide, there is a WC cinny with squiggles, so it could be anybody's guess.

I suggest contacting the breeder to see if he can tell you what pair this snake is from. Then you will know for sure, as Bruce mentioned.

Gale

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That's a WC black pastel not a cinny in that pic.

The parents were "Ian G. Line" black pastels - whatever that means. I dug up the receipt. Now you all know for sure. I still think that, according to the guide (with the the exception of the squiggles) he looks like a cinnamon.

I am far from a BP expert. In fact this is the only one I ever owned.

I think it's comical that even the guide basically says that there is little to no difference other than the squiggles as the head.

Here's some more fuel for the fire:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...cin_pastel.asp

If I'm reading this right, they are the SAME thing. Before someone sacks up and flames me, read the quote from Graziani.

..and Laura - here is a link to another Ian G. black pastel that looks just like ol' Dave the Wuss:

http://www.kingsnake.com/donpatterso...stel_ball.html

Side note:

Robert sold me that animal as a black pastel. Robert is a stand up guy and one of the most honest people I have encountered in this hobby. If this thread goes anywhere near questioning that, or making snide comments about the animals he produces - I'll throw the biggest hissy fit any of you have ever seen.

Count on it.

Having looked at a ton of adds and more pictures I think they're the same, just like all the "yellow" pastels. I saw BHB has a Lori Ball Python for sale which looks like a light colored cinnamon, kind of how Dave looks now.

Found a dealer who had both cinnamons and a black pastel for sale and they looked the same to me.

I took a really close look at my cinnamon female and while she doesn't have highly noticable squiggles, she does have darker scales around the alienheads that once she fades will probably look like Daves.

I wonder which line of black pastels has the high yellow content? They're the only ones that really seem different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Side note:

Robert sold me that animal as a black pastel. Robert is a stand up guy and one of the most honest people I have encountered in this hobby. If this thread goes anywhere near questioning that, or making snide comments about the animals he produces - I'll throw the biggest hissy fit any of you have ever seen.

Count on it.

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I don't doubt Robert at all and would vote Dave is a black pastel just on that. Dave is 4(?) years old now, so we can't reliably use his color as a determining factor I don't think.

I have read all the threads on this forum multiple times in a "cinnamon black pastel" search. Coke is to Pepsi is to Sams is to RC is to Sunnyside, all taste a little different, but they're all still colas.

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Originally Posted by withonor

I don't doubt Robert at all and would vote Dave is a black pastel just on that. Dave is 4(?) years old now, so we can't reliably use his color as a determining factor I don't think.

I have read all the threads on this forum multiple times in a "cinnamon black pastel" search. Coke is to Pepsi is to Sams is to RC is to Sunnyside, all taste a little different, but they're all still colas.

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You're all right Dave.

Hank would love to meet you. He's much manlier than your reptile namesake. He was originally a Henry, then my son thought that was too femme and we switched it up. If he had hands, they'd be large and hairy.

I used to mow the lawn with him draped around my shoulders. He's a chick magnet - ask Laura.

Back on topic:

Dave the Snake is a black pastel. All of searching and comparing this morning has not only confirmed that, but given me a hell of a headache. You ball python people live in different world.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Hank would love to meet you.

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My girlfriend and family still have four months left in quarantine before another species can be introduced.

He's a good looking boy, ahem, man though.

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Originally Posted by withonor

My girlfriend and family still have four months left in quarantine.

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I never tried that with my wife. How's that working out for you?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Example number 1 at the bottom of the page says wc cinny and it had squiggles. Example 3 says black pastel.

Whatever it is it's beautiful.

And Deborah is right, her snake looks remarkably like yours. I don't know who you got it from, but if you trust him, that's what matters.

I wonder, are the two morphs compatible or not? What I mean is, would you ever breed a cinny and a black pastel, or would that only serve to muddy the water even more so to speak?

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Example number 1 at the bottom of the page says wc cinny and it had squiggles. Example 3 says black pastel.

Whatever it is it's beautiful.

And Deborah is right, her snake looks remarkably like yours. I don't know who you got it from, but if you trust him, that's what matters.

I wonder, are the two morphs compatible or not? What I mean is, would you ever breed a cinny and a black pastel, or would that only serve to muddy the water even more so to speak?

Gale

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im pretty sure if you breed a cinny to a black pastel you get the all black super with the white belly.

their super forms are almost identical.

I personally believe they are different lines of the same morph, much like the butter and lesser. There are animals you can tell the difference between the two with, and then there are examples of animals where you can't tell them from the other, or they look like the opposite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Example number 1 at the bottom of the page says wc cinny and it had squiggles. Example 3 says black pastel.

Whatever it is it's beautiful.

And Deborah is right, her snake looks remarkably like yours. I don't know who you got it from, but if you trust him, that's what matters.

I wonder, are the two morphs compatible or not? What I mean is, would you ever breed a cinny and a black pastel, or would that only serve to muddy the water even more so to speak?

Gale

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Still not seeing it. The only WC on that page is a black.

Quote:

Example 1- This is a w.c. Black Pastel, can you see al the traits (the trend)? First off let me say sorry about the terrible picture, its hard to see color but it will give you an example of the traits we look for. Flames in RED. Squiggles in BLUE. The clear belly in Yellow, and the Blushing in GREEN. He does have the usual Black Pastel color but this picture just does not show it. He also does have the deep black eyes. Not the best example of a w.c. but you get the idea.

Example 2 is a cinny and then example 3 is a black.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

im pretty sure if you breed a cinny to a black pastel you get the all black super with the white belly.

Their super forms are almost identical.

I personally believe they are different lines of the same morph, much like the butter and lesser. There are animals you can tell the difference between the two with, and then there are examples of animals where you can't tell them from the other, or they look like the opposite.

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+1

LOL... the votes are tied EXACTLY with a score of 14/14... so I guess we'll call him a cinna-pastel. :D;) Thanks everyone for the input, and I do think he's a hottie regardless of his morph! I'm planning to make pewters with him, so it doesn't really matter in those - either a cinny or BP should make nice pewters, right? His offspring will just be more brownish than silvery, which hopefully people will like.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I used to mow the lawn with him draped around my shoulders. He's a chick magnet - ask Laura.

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LMAO - he totally is! :D My roommate (also a chick) was soooo in love with him, and I think she would've bought him if she wasn't completely broke. Heck, I would if I had the room right now! Hank is such a cool dude....

I guess we must be looking at two different pages then. Because I just checked for the fourth time and it says wc cinny. Now, I am looking at the Guide pages that are stickied here, perhaps it is just mislabeled here?

Ok, I found the problem. The sticky here calls it a wc cinny. On the actual Next World Exotics website it's called a black pastel.

So, now I know I'm not completely crazy. lol

I have to agree then, it most certainly is a black pastel, just a faded one I guess you'd call it.

Gale

Okay... so based on all of the above, what would you do with him breeding-wise? Should I just go ahead with my pewter plans (which will take a few years since I only have a male pastel), or try something more creative? I'm not a huge fan of the super cinnys/bps, so that's probably not a project I'd spend time on. Any other ideas?? :confuzd:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I guess we must be looking at two different pages then. Because I just checked for the fourth time and it says wc cinny. Now, I am looking at the Guide pages that are stickied here, perhaps it is just mislabeled here?

Ok, I found the problem. The sticky here calls it a wc cinny. On the actual Next World Exotics website it's called a black pastel.

So, now I know I'm not completely crazy. lol

I have to agree then, it most certainly is a black pastel, just a faded one I guess you'd call it.

Gale

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Even the guide is confused..........

To me he looks just like Deborah's black pastel. If Seib said he's a black, that's good enough for me. Robert is still producing blacks from the same line:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=745124

There are two people who think it's an "other" - WTF?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I have a female black pastel who is very light like yours (I know she is a black pastel since I produced her ;))

Here she is

http://stewartreptiles.com/wordpress...ckpastel08.jpg

http://stewartreptiles.com/wordpress...ckpastel09.jpg

So if you purchase yours as a black pastel it is very possible that it is indeed a black pastel even if not looking like most of them.

Their coloration varies.

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I think you start a poll and see how many people, despite the fact that you know the lineage and produced it, think it's a cinnamon. ;)

Bah - I saw this before with the great black tail cribo debate. Despite the fact that the unicolor cribo was an accepted species, there were people insisting that unicolors were inferior blacks whose tails faded.

Now unis command a better price - go figure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Even the guide is confused..........

To me he looks just like Deborah's black pastel. If Seib said he's a black, that's good enough for me. Robert is still producing blacks from the same line:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=745124

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Yeah, I trust Seib, but it was interesting to get everyone's perspective!

Quote:

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There are two people who think it's an "other" - WTF?

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I know, what's up with that? Maybe they think he's a normal... :D

P.S. Cinnamon is now winning the poll by 2 votes... :oops:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Even the guide is confused..........

To me he looks just like Deborah's black pastel. If Seib said he's a black, that's good enough for me. Robert is still producing blacks from the same line:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=745124

There are two people who think it's an "other" - WTF?

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I already said if Robert says it's a black pastel, then that's what it is.

However I voted "Other" on principal. Breed together they make the same super, they're the same thing to me. It's frustrating trying to learn when there aren't clear definitions and seven different names for the same thing. If you breed a blonde pastel to a lemon pastel to a jungle pastel, you get a super, but a black pastel makes a pewter. Why is it even classified as a pastel?

I choose science over marketing.

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Originally Posted by withonor

It's frustrating trying to learn when there aren't clear definitions and seven different names for the same thing.

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Amen.

I'm calling it a Lolo Pastel.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Amen.

I'm calling it a Lolo Pastel.

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Hahaha... I like that! :8:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I think you start a poll and see how many people, despite the fact that you know the lineage and produced it, think it's a cinnamon. ;)

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No doubt which is why I posted her ;), she was sired by this Black Pastel Male (Gulf Coast Reptiles Line) seen here with one of her sibling.

Out of 4 Black Pastels produced in that clutch she is the only one looking like a cinny ;)

http://stewartreptiles.com/wordpress...ckpastel06.jpg

Looks like a black pastel to me. Btw Skiploder "Ian G. Line" means it came from one of our original breeders here at Outback Reptiles.

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Originally Posted by Mike@OutbackReptiles

Looks like a black pastel to me. Btw Skiploder "Ian G. Line" means it came from one of our original breeders here at Outback Reptiles.

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I thought it meant it was bred by Kenny G's brother........

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No doubt which is why I posted her ;), she was sired by this Black Pastel Male (Gulf Coast Reptiles Line) seen here with one of her sibling.

Out of 4 Black Pastels produced in that clutch she is the only one looking like a cinny ;)

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That's really interesting - and all the snakes are beautiful! :) So, I guess cinnamon vs black pastel is similar to lesser vs butter, where it's often hard to tell the difference? I've seen lessers that looked like butters, and vice-versa... so confusing, LOL.

Am I the only person who can see a very obvious difference in the shape, markings and color of the head with cinnamons? That snake is not a cinnamon. Also super cinnamons are not the same color as super black pastels. Super black pastels should be fairly solid black. Super cinnamons have a different colored sheen to them. They are more of a burgandy hematite color. The belly is different as well. Ive seen black pastels that look like a normal but i know a cinnamon a mile away. Its probably my all time favorite morph.

Cinnamon..... definatly, the heads flushed out, were as a black pastel has a dark head and a bizarre pattern.

I am really new to the morph thing so I looked up pics of both because I wanted to see if I could tell the difference. Is it possible that he had one of each for parents? I dont wanna sound stupid, and I probably do, But he looks a lot like a little of both. IDK...he also looks like the sable that was crossed with a cinnamon on one page...I wonder if some people just post those oics and tell what they were bred from to make me ask a lot of questions! LOL - Really I amtoo new to judge, but I gave it a hell of a shot!

Hey, I'm new to this stuff too - so you know about as much as I do! :oops: Looks like Cinnamon is winning the poll by quite a bit, which is pretty interesting... he is definitely a black pastel according to his genetics, but I agree he's in disguise as a cinny. I look forward to breeding this beautiful boy, no matter what morph he is. Now if only he'd show some interest in the ladies. :cool:

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I'm leaning black but just not a great example of one.

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Btw, were you saying that Dave isn't a pretty black pastel? :( I've been doing some research, and it seems the Ian G line (what Dave is) just has a more blushed-out look... I personally prefer his appearance, since it's like having two morphs in one!

Some examples of Ian G black pastels...

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...s/IMG_4478.jpg
http://tcreptiles.com/images/Breadin...lackpastel.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...s/IMG_3459.jpg
http://www.kingsnake.com/donpatterso...stel_ball.html (the first one really looks like Dave!)

Do you hve any reason to think that Robert is lying?
I would imagine that Robert (the breeder) would know, yes?
Did he not hatch the babies?
Breed the mother to the father?
Watched the babies come out of the egg?
It's not really a guessing game;
Mother/father was a cinny; babies are cinnies. Mother/father was a black pastel; babies are black pastels.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Do you hve any reason to think that Robert is lying?
I would imagine that Robert (the breeder) would know, yes?
Did he not hatch the babies?
Breed the mother to the father?
Watched the babies come out of the egg?
It's not really a guessing game;
Mother/father was a cinny; babies are cinnies. Mother/father was a black pastel; babies are black pastels.

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Old thread, so I've already established that he is a Black Pastel - and we actually knew that from the beginning, LOL. ;) But to answer your questions, I didn't get him directly from Robert Seib... I got him from Skiploder in a local deal, and he said Dave was a Black Pastel, but could possibly have been "mislabeled" or identified.

He's not a black pastel, he's a river otter.

Sorry for the confusion.

Im thinking snapping turtle maybe alligator snapping turtle but probably the first one. P.S. Its actually a dwagon.

At least the two morphs produce the same thing and are technically the same thing, just look a tad different. And are priced about the same:gj:

I thought black pastels and cinnamons were the same thing???? :confused:

Just like butters and lessers??

So just because it was produced by different people that makes them different? I don't get it.. lol

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

I thought black pastels and cinnamons were the same thing???? :confused:

Just like butters and lessers??

So just because it was produced by different people that makes them different? I don't get it.. lol

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They look a bit different in appearance, but basically are the same thing, like you stated earlier about the Butters and Lessers.

I've noticed in cinny's the yellow stripes in their head are almost completely faded. Or maybe those were really good examples. :snake: