New Butter

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

New butter female, about 6 months old. The yellows already coming out.

What do you think of it?

That's not a butter, its an amel. But its a very nice looking one! Congrats on the pick up.

I saw his parents and they were Butters, and the photo is actually redder than that snake. I guess only time will tell...

If the parents were butters, then they either weren't actually butters, or are not the parents of this snake. I don't want to come off as being rude or trying to discourage you, but that is definitely not a butter. No mistaking it. Sorry.

no need to excuse yourself.

In fact thanks a lot for your input.

Can you explain why you're certain though? just by the colours? or maybe head pattern or pattern etc?

Thanks again

As soon as i saw the pic i said thats not a butter also.Here is a link to a butter corn.Who did you buy your amel from? They either have no clue or showed you the wrong pics. http://www.moreptiles.com/butter.htm

butter corns have no red in them it al yellow and orange yellow. I havea male one thatI recues years ag andthe only red on him is from blood when rodent blood gets spilled as far as ican tell he got some dark orange spot that look almost red.
here my butter the pic old and he in shed.

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/s...450/alshed.jpg

but the one in the pic you gave me is an adult while mine is still a 6month old, I've seen pics of juvenile butters which are very similar to mine...

I don't know what to do.

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Originally Posted by anti-

but the one in the pic you gave me is an adult while mine is still a 6month old, I've seen pics of juvenile butters which are very similar to mine...

I don't know what to do.

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Here take a look at this page then.They do not look like amels when babies not even close.

http://www.vmsherp.com/ViewCornsnakes.htm

Here is a page with baby pics. http://www.vmsherp.com/4SaleCornsnakes.htm

http://www.vmsherp.com/images/ForSal...s/I074-01F.JPG

You can't believe it's a butter! :P


In reality it seems closer to butter hatchlings than amelanistic hatchlings, but on the pic the orange is too vivid, which makes it closer to amels. Although I admit that her orange is a tad more vivid than the usual butter hatchling.


What can I say, I'll try to keep you updated as she grows up and confirms one way or another. I guess it will start to show more which way it's going by each shed now.

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Originally Posted by anti-

You can't believe it's a butter! :P


In reality it seems closer to butter hatchlings than amelanistic hatchlings, but on the pic the orange is too vivid, which makes it closer to amels. Although I admit that her orange is a tad more vivid than the usual butter hatchling.


What can I say, I'll try to keep you updated as she grows up and confirms one way or another. I guess it will start to show more which way it's going by each shed now.

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Uum they dont "grow" into other morphs no matter how things go ;).

d'uh I know,

what I meant was that maybe it's a butter that doesn't look like one for now, but will eventually start to show that it's actually one.

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Originally Posted by anti-

d'uh I know,

what I meant was that maybe it's a butter that doesn't look like one for now, but will eventually start to show that it's actually one.

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Sorry but it does not work like that ;).Your snake is a amel not a butter

While most baby butter corns don't usually look that orange, I have actually seen pictures of some that do. One well-known breeder that seems to have a particularly orange-looking line of butter corns is Jim Keenan. His website is at www.homegrownherps.com. Unfortunately, he seems to have taken some of his hatchling pictures down temporarily for updating. Maybe they will be back up soon. But I do believe that snake could be a butter... and it is very pretty!

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Originally Posted by anti-

no need to excuse yourself.

In fact thanks a lot for your input.

Can you explain why you're certain though? just by the colours? or maybe head pattern or pattern etc?

Thanks again

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It's the red color. A butter will have zero red, even as a hatchling/juvenile. So the fact that yours has red is a dead give away that its not a butter. It's possible it could be het for caramel if one of the parents was a butter.

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Originally Posted by wendhend

While most baby butter corns don't usually look that orange, I have actually seen pictures of some that do. One well-known breeder that seems to have a particularly orange-looking line of butter corns is Jim Keenan. His website is at www.homegrownherps.com. Unfortunately, he seems to have taken some of his hatchling pictures down temporarily for updating. Maybe they will be back up soon. But I do believe that snake could be a butter... and it is very pretty!

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I looked at his site and his "creamsicle butters" are the only one that mentions having any red colorings.So a normal butter(even his ) has no red in it ;).Here is the exact page i got the info from.

http://www.homegrownherps.com/expected_cornsnakes.htm

It's not a butter.
This was my hatchling butter motley.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC06311.jpg

Butters have no red.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...a8c71aaefd.jpg

This is one of the parents.

Ok then can you see for yourself yours does not look even close to it? What was the other parent?

That definitely looks like it could be a butter. If that is in fact one of the parents, then the other parent was definitely not a butter, this would mean your guy is het caramel.

I still think this hatchling might actually be a butter. To my knowledge, the best authority on corn snake morphs is Chuck Pritzel. In his well-known Cornsnake Morph Guide, this is what he has to say about butter corn snakes: "As hatchlings, these can sometimes resemble snows or amels. Butters can range in appearance from almost "snow-like" to almost "amel-like." Saddle colors tend to range from yellow to dark brownish orange, and the ground color ranges from white or off-white to shades of yellow."

So, if this baby was: 1. Known to come from two butter corn parents, 2. Has less vivid red / orange coloring in real life than the picture portrays, and 3. Fits into the known range of butter hatchling appearances ("almost amel-like") per the corn snake morph authority.... shouldn't we at least give anti the benefit of the doubt that this hatchling might actually be a butter?

that's what i think too...


tomorrow I'll try to take some better pictures of him in natural sunlight and post them here.


I'll take detail pics of his head and belly pattern too.

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Originally Posted by wendhend

I still think this hatchling might actually be a butter. To my knowledge, the best authority on corn snake morphs is Chuck Pritzel. In his well-known Cornsnake Morph Guide, this is what he has to say about butter corn snakes: "As hatchlings, these can sometimes resemble snows or amels. Butters can range in appearance from almost "snow-like" to almost "amel-like." Saddle colors tend to range from yellow to dark brownish orange, and the ground color ranges from white or off-white to shades of yellow."

So, if this baby was: 1. Known to come from two butter corn parents, 2. Has less vivid red / orange coloring in real life than the picture portrays, and 3. Fits into the known range of butter hatchling appearances ("almost amel-like") per the corn snake morph authority.... shouldn't we at least give anti the benefit of the doubt that this hatchling might actually be a butter?

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Charles Pritzel is very knowledgeable but I guarantee if he saw that snake he'd label it an amel. '10 will be my 15th year breeding corns, and I've hatched out plenty of butters as well as amels so I know the difference.

Sorry but the OP's snake isn't a butter.

Did you ever get a pic of the other parent?

Here are some pics with a more realistic colour, tell me what you think :

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...tiantianti.jpg

Thanks!

More convinced than ever that he's not a butter. Sorry.

He is a very very nice looking amel. Sometimes het caramel can show though, and he has the coloration to possibly be het caramel, but only breeding trials will tell for sure unless you're 100% one of the parents was a butter.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

More convinced than ever that he's not a butter. Sorry.

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I agree ;)

The new pictures are helpful. I still think it looks more orange than a typical butter corn... but not as red as a typical amel hatchling would. Its irises appear to be yellow / gold in color, right? You do see that golden color in butters, wheras, amel eyes are typically more pink. Has anyone considered that this hatchling might be hybrid, such as a creamsicle? Its yellow-orange color looks like fairly typical creamsicle coloration to me. Some creamsicles can look quite yellow, which might explain one or both of the parents looking yellow but producing an orange baby? Just a thought... In any case, it is a very pretty little snake, and it would be cool to see future pictures of how its coloration changes with maturity.

Face it the ONLY way this snake is going to be a butter is if you roll it in butter :rofl:.Sorry to be blunt but cmon ;)

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Originally Posted by joepythons

face it the only way this snake is going to be a butter is if you roll it in butter :rofl:.sorry to be blunt but cmon ;)

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:8::8::8:

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Originally Posted by wendhend

I still think this hatchling might actually be a butter. To my knowledge, the best authority on corn snake morphs is Chuck Pritzel. In his well-known Cornsnake Morph Guide, this is what he has to say about butter corn snakes: "As hatchlings, these can sometimes resemble snows or amels. Butters can range in appearance from almost "snow-like" to almost "amel-like." Saddle colors tend to range from yellow to dark brownish orange, and the ground color ranges from white or off-white to shades of yellow."

So, if this baby was: 1. Known to come from two butter corn parents, 2. Has less vivid red / orange coloring in real life than the picture portrays, and 3. Fits into the known range of butter hatchling appearances ("almost amel-like") per the corn snake morph authority.... shouldn't we at least give anti the benefit of the doubt that this hatchling might actually be a butter?

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You can describe things in books, but it's never the same until you see it and experience it in real life. Not saying that Chuck has not, because he has, it's just something that can't always be described perfectly in words.
Matt knows what he's talking about, I can promise you that.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

You can describe things in books, but it's never the same until you see it and experience it in real life. Not saying that Chuck has not, because he has, it's just something that can't always be described perfectly in words.
Matt knows what he's talking about, I can promise you that.

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I don't mean any disrespect to Matt, but I have also been breeding corns for several years and have hatched many amels, as well as some butters. I agree that this hatchling doesn't look like a typical butter, but it also doesn't look like a typical amel. I do agree that it is amelanistic in the broad sense of the word, meaning that it doesn't have any black pigment. Yet there is something very yellow about this snake that you don't see in a typical amel hatchling... in its yellow ground color, yellow-orange saddles and even apparent in its golden eye-color in the newer pictures. Looking at the newer pictures, I tend to think that it might actually be a creamsicle. Does that seem plausible to you all?

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Originally Posted by wendhend

Looking at the newer pictures, I tend to think that it might actually be a creamsicle. Does that seem plausible to you all?

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The first pic shows enough its a amel ;).Sorry but its not a creamsicle either :colbert:.

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Originally Posted by wendhend

I tend to think that it might actually be a creamsicle. Does that seem plausible to you all?

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That's possible. But amels have such a wide variety, and this one isn't that odd looking of an amel to be honest. As I mentioned earlier, some het caramels have a yellowish tint that can take over their body. But not all do. Though this one does have that coloration one might expect from an amel that is het caramel.

Unless it was sold as a creamsicle or the breeder is known to have worked with creamsicles, I wouldn't label it as such.

I contacted the breeder and he ensured me that both parents are actually butter.


I don't have anything more to say, I'll just post more pics with each shed to keep you updated.

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Originally Posted by anti-

I contacted the breeder and he ensured me that both parents are actually butter.


I don't have anything more to say, I'll just post more pics with each shed to keep you updated.

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Ok have a good one :gj:

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Originally Posted by anti-

I contacted the breeder and he ensured me that both parents are actually butter.


I don't have anything more to say, I'll just post more pics with each shed to keep you updated.

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Had the female been paired with other males at all previously? Sounds like this could be a retained sperm situation.
Who is the breeder?

Sometimes the breeder can be mistaken. I had a friend who worked at a Petsmart and one day she calls me and says "We have a pastel ball python in the store! I didn't think we'd get one in but a guy who breeds ball pythons came in and said it was a pastel." So of course I go to the store to see this "pastel" and sure enough it is a normal. Some average blushing maybe (my normal female has more blushing than my pastel) but definitely not a pastel and my friend readily believed him that it was a pastel when in fact it wasn't, so you can never be too sure when a breeder labels an animal as something.

And it could very well be a case of retained sperm or maybe he forgot that he paired an amel with the female. I am no corn snake breeder, though I hope to start breeding corn snakes very soon but from what I've seen of amel babies and butter babies, that looks like an amel to me.

I know we are just beating a dead horse (gosh I hate that phrase) but I would do a little more research on your breeder and ask him to send photos of BOTH parents, updated ones, with perhaps a current date in the background just to make sure. I dunno. Just a thought....

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I know we are just beating a dead horse (gosh I hate that phrase) but I would do a little more research on your breeder and ask him to send photos of BOTH parents, updated ones, with perhaps a current date in the background just to make sure. I dunno. Just a thought....

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x2. just kinda skimming the thread but I would definitely get some pics of the parents with the current date in the background

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

That's possible. But amels have such a wide variety, and this one isn't that odd looking of an amel to be honest. As I mentioned earlier, some het caramels have a yellowish tint that can take over their body. But not all do. Though this one does have that coloration one might expect from an amel that is het caramel.

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I am aware of this phenomenon with amels het for caramel having extra yellow, but I have yet to see a really extreme example of one. I have a couple of amel het caramel girls myself. While they do have a bit more yellowish tones to them than most amels, their reds are still pretty apparent but kind of muted. Would you say that most amels het for caramel with the extreme yellows hatch looking extemely yellow or that the yellow typically creeps in over time? Does anybody have any photos of these high-yellow amels het caramel (hatchling and/or adult) that they could post on this thread for comparison? Thanks!

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Originally Posted by wendhend

I am aware of this phenomenon with amels het for caramel having extra yellow, but I have yet to see a really extreme example of one. I have a couple of amel het caramel girls myself. While they do have a bit more yellowish tones to them than most amels, their reds are still pretty apparent but kind of muted. Would you say that most amels het for caramel with the extreme yellows hatch looking extemely yellow or that the yellow typically creeps in over time? Does anybody have any photos of these high-yellow amels het caramel (hatchling and/or adult) that they could post on this thread for comparison? Thanks!

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It's not really extreme, at least the ones I've seen. It's enough where you can say "Oh yeah, it does look more yellow" but isn't so extreme where it screams het caramel. My breeder male amel that is het caramel, is actually a sunglow and shows no hint. Same with other het caramels that I've hatched, they all looked "normal".

But if you look on cs.com, you'll find people that have posted comparison shots.