Newest email from USARK- Python ban moves forward

PR: Python Ban Moves Forward Despite Questionable Science


December 10, 2009 Wilmington, NC- Driven by powerful special interests and much media sensation S. 373 aka ‘The Python Ban’ is likely to move forward despite lack of scientific justification. Pushed by Sponsor Senator Bill Nelson and the Humane Society of the United States S. 373 could devastate the trade in high quality captive bred reptiles in the United States.

Today the Senate Committee on the Environment & Public Works (EPW) will hold a business meeting on S. 373. The Committee Chair is Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) and the Ranking Member is Senator James Inhofe (R-OK). The committee will hold a mark up session where they will consider S. 373, to amend title 18, United States Code, to add constrictor snakes of the species Python genera to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. The committee is expected to amend the bill to include the 9 snakes listed on a recent controversial report by the US Geological Survey (USGS). All tolled the bill could stop the import, export and interstate transport of as many as 45 species of Boas and Pythons.

The USGS report being used to justify these extreme measures has been called into question by a group of independent scientists in a letter to the EPW Committee on November 24, 2009. The letter characterized the USGS report as “not a bona-fide scientific paper”. The US Department of the Interior (DOI) and the US Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) stand by the report and have recommended to the committee that all 9 snakes reviewed should be included by amendment to S. 373. The independent scientists, who include professors from University of Florida, Arizona State University, Texas A&M and The National Geographic Society, go further to state, “this document is not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices”

The United States Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK) made an agreement in principle with Senator Bill Nelson’s office to limit the damage to a 3 billion dollar a year trade in these reptiles, but was informed yesterday that the agreement would not be honored. Senator Nelson has justified his position based on the recommendations made in regards to the USGS report by USFWS and DOI. Andrew Wyatt, president of USARK, commented that “it is a real shame that Senator Nelson has changed his position on this issue”. If the bill passes approximately 4 million boas and pythons already in captivity would be rendered valueless overnight with no provisions for disposition or compensation. Wyatt added, “it could create a situation where millions of people will be in possession of injurious wildlife. It is ludicrous to put so many law abiding citizens in that position and diminish the Lacey Act for the sake of political expediency.”

Passage of S. 373 would result in the loss of thousands of American jobs bankrupting an entire industry. Without strong evidence to support the injurious wildlife listing, USARK calls on the Senate EPW Committee to give an unfavorable rating to S. 373.

Contact:

Andrew Wyatt

president@usark.org




*****
This is bad.... :(

they'll slowly work their way towards domesticated animals.. you'll see.. its the coming of a new era..

Dont get so down. Keep your head high and keep fighting it.

Ok, I've been following this. Now that it's moving forward, are we going to be in violation of the law once this bill is passed as it is moving forward?

no your animals you have will be grandfathered in.

I'm confused. I'm seeing conflicting reports. Some sites say the nine in the USGS survey were *added* to the list, and some say S373 *only* includes the nine. Anyone know which it is?

Not that the bill isn't still terrible either way, but I'd like to get my arguing points straight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denial

no your animals you have will be grandfathered in.

---

That depends. They could easily amend the bill to say that anyone in possession of one with out a research permit is violating the law, and be charge with felony possession.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by panthercz

That depends. They could easily amend the bill to say that anyone in possession of one with out a research permit is violating the law, and be charge with felony possession.

---

A felony? I'm in shock. I just read a little more about this bill, and it concerns me, as most.

How will this affect Ball Pythons? Pardon my ignorance if someone has already asked this before.

Sorry I was wrong it already states that you will *HAVE TO KILL ALL YOUR PYTHONS*, because the Lacey Act says so. It says that all importers or consignees to “promptly” export or destroy any prohibited animals or eggs at their own expense.
A consignee is the owner for those that don't know...

The s373 bill is to ad these snakes to the Lacey Act so that means bye bye all pythons and boas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by herpmanout82

A felony? I'm in shock. I just read a little more about this bill, and it concerns me, as most.

How will this affect Ball Pythons? Pardon my ignorance if someone has already asked this before.

---

It doesn't... YET.

If this passes, this opens the floodgates for other legislation to be pushed thru, including those regarding Ball Pythons.

According to USARK's most recent Tweet, the bill has been amended to include only the nine species included in the bogus USGS paper. Yes, this means that ball pythons are off the chopping block, but it also means that there are nine species (including many subspecies) still threatened. Boa constrictors are on there too, though it doesn't say specifically if they're referring to all subspecies of boa constrictor or anything that's a boa that constricts. They need to list all species and subspecies in these bills instead of being stupidly vague.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eventide

According to USARK's most recent Tweet, the bill has been amended to include only the nine species included in the bogus USGS paper. Yes, this means that ball pythons are off the chopping block, but it also means that there are nine species (including many subspecies) still threatened. Boa constrictors are on there too, though it doesn't say specifically if they're referring to all subspecies of boa constrictor or anything that's a boa that constricts. They need to list all species and subspecies in these bills instead of being stupidly vague.

---

Ok this sounds bad, who is on the side of this community? What about "big shots" like Jeff Corwin, Nigel what's-his-name and the rest of the Animal Planet crew? Are these fellas even remotely involved with the support of this bill or against?

The boa market is huge, I can't see that staying on the bill. Literally 90% of the boa market is in B.C.X species.

Anyone frequent any boa forums? Are they paying attention to this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eventide

According to USARK's most recent Tweet, the bill has been amended to include only the nine species included in the bogus USGS paper. Yes, this means that ball pythons are off the chopping block, but it also means that there are nine species (including many subspecies) still threatened. Boa constrictors are on there too, though it doesn't say specifically if they're referring to all subspecies of boa constrictor or anything that's a boa that constricts. They need to list all species and subspecies in these bills instead of being stupidly vague.

---

did they have that in writing?
i find that highly doubtful

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by herpmanout82

Ok this sounds bad, who is on the side of this community? What about "big shots" like Jeff Corwin, Nigel what's-his-name and the rest of the Animal Planet crew? Are these fellas even remotely involved with the support of this bill or against?

---

I have no idea who those people are. I don't watch Animal Planet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nixer

did they have that in writing?
i find that highly doubtful

---

Which part?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nixer

did they have that in writing?
i find that highly doubtful

---

Did they have what in writing?

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by panthercz

Sorry I was wrong it already states that you will *HAVE TO KILL ALL YOUR PYTHONS*, because the Lacey Act says so. It says that all importers or consignees to “promptly” export or destroy any prohibited animals or eggs at their own expense.
A consignee is the owner for those that don't know...

The s373 bill is to ad these snakes to the Lacey Act so that means bye bye all pythons and boas.

---

Wait, are you saying if this passes to include them, I would have to kill my ball python? I would probably commit suicide myself before I did that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by herpmanout82

Ok this sounds bad, who is on the side of this community? What about "big shots" like Jeff Corwin, Nigel what's-his-name and the rest of the Animal Planet crew? Are these fellas even remotely involved with the support of this bill or against?

---

Jeff Corwin is a pile of crap. There was an episode quite a while back where he rescued a boa constrictor from an apartment and made the statement that no one should keep these animals and they should be left in their environment where they belong.

Hey, Adam, I can pick apart every, single argument in favor of this bill using only the most basic of logic. I'm a graduate student in astronomy; us real scientists can think logically. How can I get this across to the politicians? Sending it to the politicians won't do any good (probably) because they won't read it. Is it possible to get someone to argue the points for us? Or is it possible for a layperson to present the arguments to Congress themselves? I don't care about the cost of a plane ticket; I'm willing to fly to D.C. to do what I can to stop this ridiculous wannabe science and complete lack of intelligent thought. (I'd even drive if they'd let me bring some snakes with me to show them!)

And please, I'm not trying to puff myself up. Anyone who stops and thinks a little bit could point out how ridiculous these arguments are. It's clear these politicians don't care how many people call in. We need to find some other way to get reason through their thick skulls. The complete lack of thought in this country is frightening and it needs to stop!

I hate to be ignorant but what exactly will happen if or when this bill is passed? Will the sale of those 9 said species be illegal? Can individual breeders still trade among themselves?

What exactly will happen:

The species listed will be added to the list of injurious species in the Lacey Act.

It will be illegal to import them, or transport them across state lines, without a special permit. The permit will only be granted to zoological institutions, educational institutions, etc.

You will be able to breed and sell the animals within your own State, but NOT to buy or sell them across State lines. You will not be allowed to take your animals with you if you move from one State to another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

You will not be allowed to take your animals with you if you move from one State to another.

---

This will be the killer for us... we were hoping to buy land in Virginia or Pennsylvania sometime in the future... but how can we leave our babies behind???

Don't, smuggle them in. I have never been stopped crossing the Oregon California border.

I imagine this giant network of breeders supplying counterfeit sales receipts as people take their animals around the country. :P
No one is watching how many animals are hatched, after all.

Hello,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derrick13

Don't, smuggle them in. I have never been stopped crossing the Oregon California border.

---

Please take the time to read the rules of the site;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Site T.O.S.

8. No posts promoting illegal behavior will be tolerated, including but not limited to warez/pirating of copyrighted material, illegal drug or alcohol usage, and illegal ownership or trafficking of species.

---

dr del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Hello,



Please take the time to read the rules of the site;




dr del

---

Technically, he's not promoting doing anything illegal as it's not yet a law.


And regardless, it would be the correct course of action :salute:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by panthercz

Sorry I was wrong it already states that you will *HAVE TO KILL ALL YOUR PYTHONS*, because the Lacey Act says so. It says that all importers or consignees to “promptly” export or destroy any prohibited animals or eggs at their own expense.
A consignee is the owner for those that don't know...

The s373 bill is to ad these snakes to the Lacey Act so that means bye bye all pythons and boas.

---

Like :cens0r: im gonna kill my snakes. They are gonna have to come get them and take them from me by force.:cool:

What snakes are actually on this list that we know of so far? Burmese and redtails i presume.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

What exactly will happen:

The species listed will be added to the list of injurious species in the Lacey Act.

It will be illegal to import them, or transport them across state lines, without a special permit. The permit will only be granted to zoological institutions, educational institutions, etc.

You will be able to breed and sell the animals within your own State, but NOT to buy or sell them across State lines. You will not be allowed to take your animals with you if you move from one State to another.

---

Hi,

Yes, that would be why he wasn't infracted just asked to re-read the rules.

What you do in terms of the law is between the police and you - what you type about on the site however we would rather be within the rules of the site.

You may want to think however what your "right thing to do" is likely to result in for everyone else.


dr del

The snakes on the amended bill:

Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons (both species)
Reticulated Pythons
All 4 species of Anaconda
Boa constrictor

If this is all this bill will do then it isnt going to do anything to help the problems they think it will. Is thier reasoning behind this not to stop irrisponsible people from owning these animals and having them abandoned in local wildlife areas. If anything this will make those 2 problems worse. These animals will now become worthless therefore easier for people to breed and buy within thier own state. They will still breed them and they will still be sold to impulse buyers who think they are cool if they own a snake but care less about the responsibility. More of these animals will end up improperly cared for and abandoned then ever. Alot of irrisponsible people who own them now will be worried about the new law and start ditching thier animals, and think who cares its not worth anything anymore. It certainly wont stop things like the kid being killed. People can still own them then they can still be stupid in how they house them.

I wasn't recommending illegal activity either, for the record--but I was pointing out how completely unenforceable this law would be if people practiced civil disobedience and refused to comply with it.

Because the government does not track how many animals are produced by breeders each year, they have no way of knowing (short of genetic testing) what the origin of a specific animal is. Once an animal is an adult, they have no way of knowing when it was transported to a specific location.

Anyone who wanted to could easily sidestep this law by purchasing an animal out of state, transporting it to their home, then acquiring a receipt from a local breeder. The local breeder, if questioned, could claim they sold the parent of that animal to someone else locally in a cash deal. There is no way to track where the animal originated. Bloodlines across this country are SO mixed, genetic testing would not even be a viable means of checking up on this, particularly if people just kept on moving the animals around and mixing the lines.

The only way this law could be enforced is in chance encounters by law enforcement with people who are transporting an animal across a State line, or by randomly checking packages of shipped reptiles, the way they do for current Lacey Act stings.

You simply cannot keep track of these animals if you have no idea who currently owns them. That's a large part of what makes this bill so completely ridiculous--if it's not illegal to acquire or breed these animals without registering them in any way, preventing people from taking them across state lines is ludicrous. It's impossible to enforce. The only way they would have the opportunity to enforce it is through random package checks, or targeted operations against specific individuals. That's a very expensive proposition.

With enforcement impractical, and virtually all of the reptile community already expressing the intent to engage in civil disobedience, all this ban will accomplish is to make captive bred animals more valuable, since importation will have largely ceased. The trade in giant snakes will be driven underground, not eliminated. We know this will happen because people have already stated that they intend to do it.

I don't own any giant snakes--I'm not expressing my intent to violate the law, nor am I recommending that others do so. Fines if you are caught are extremely high. They might not be higher than the potential gain for sellers, however.

And here's ANOTHER point: The wording only adds these species to the list. It does NOT address the issue of hybridization. Theoretically, a ball/burm hybrid (for example) would be legal to transport, because it is NOT P. molurus.
Hybrids have been controversial in the trade for quite some time now, but if S 373 passes, hybridization would be a viable way to continue the trade in giant snakes without breaking the letter of the law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I wasn't recommending illegal activity either, for the record--but I was pointing out how completely unenforceable this law would be if people practiced civil disobedience and refused to comply with it.

Because the government does not track how many animals are produced by breeders each year, they have no way of knowing (short of genetic testing) what the origin of a specific animal is. Once an animal is an adult, they have no way of knowing when it was transported to a specific location.

Anyone who wanted to could easily sidestep this law by purchasing an animal out of state, transporting it to their home, then acquiring a receipt from a local breeder. The local breeder, if questioned, could claim they sold the parent of that animal to someone else locally in a cash deal. There is no way to track where the animal originated. Bloodlines across this country are SO mixed, genetic testing would not even be a viable means of checking up on this, particularly if people just kept on moving the animals around and mixing the lines.

The only way this law could be enforced is in chance encounters by law enforcement with people who are transporting an animal across a State line, or by randomly checking packages of shipped reptiles, the way they do for current Lacey Act stings.

You simply cannot keep track of these animals if you have no idea who currently owns them. That's a large part of what makes this bill so completely ridiculous--if it's not illegal to acquire or breed these animals without registering them in any way, preventing people from taking them across state lines is ludicrous. It's impossible to enforce. The only way they would have the opportunity to enforce it is through random package checks, or targeted operations against specific individuals. That's a very expensive proposition.

With enforcement impractical, and virtually all of the reptile community already expressing the intent to engage in civil disobedience, all this ban will accomplish is to make captive bred animals more valuable, since importation will have largely ceased. The trade in giant snakes will be driven underground, not eliminated. We know this will happen because people have already stated that they intend to do it.

I don't own any giant snakes--I'm not expressing my intent to violate the law, nor am I recommending that others do so. Fines if you are caught are extremely high. They might not be higher than the potential gain for sellers, however.

And here's ANOTHER point: The wording only adds these species to the list. It does NOT address the issue of hybridization. Theoretically, a ball/burm hybrid (for example) would be legal to transport, because it is NOT P. molurus.
Hybrids have been controversial in the trade for quite some time now, but if S 373 passes, hybridization would be a viable way to continue the trade in giant snakes without breaking the letter of the law.

---

The burden of proof will be on them to prove the snake is illegal, not for you to prove it's not. Cash deal at a reptile show...........no laws stating receipts must be given and no laws that make any type of lineage papers mandatory. Thats outside of the federal powers as it's intrastate commerce, not interstate. No way for them to prove otherwise regardless. There isn't going to be anyone looking for this anyways...who's going to be the ones enforcing it? Local leo? They won't know anything about it. Fed's don't go looking for someones pets, they have bigger fish to fry. DNR's have bigger fish to fry. I doubt there is ever one infraction to come of this at the hobbyist level, the law for all intents and purposes will be completely ignored in almost all states. The only ones that will feel the crunch is importers. Maybe the big chain stores will finally have to buy CBB's instead of farmed imports :D. Might be a little more don't ask don't tell stuff going on at the shows, but thats about it for the most part. I rarely interogate someone I'm buying a snake from anyways ;) Some huge shows like Daytona will likely be affected as it has tons of out of staters, but not the local smaller ones. Anything and everything anyone wants will be available eventually, thats assured.

This law will be like 922r for you gun enthusiasts...never enforced or even looked at unless it's tacked on as an accessory crime and even at that almost always dropped. 99% of LEO don't have any knowledge of it anyways. Almost impossible to enforce or tell even if the law was known. Might see mention of it if John Doe's burm gets out and eats the neighbors dog.....but responsible owners will never be hassled by it.

Just another senseless waste of taxpayer money for knee jerk legislation. I really hope this galvanizes the industry though, and all herpers can band together and stay that way, and not allow the Liberals to separate us and defeat us in small groups like they do to the gun owners. There will likely come a time that this fight will have to fought at the state level where the laws become much more dangerous....be vigilant.

And last but not least....anyone voting Democrat might as well be sending money to HSUS and standing right there with them with their picket signs....remember that at the midterm elections next november :salute:

So...

We may just enter, involuntary into the reptile black market?

SO in my email from usark today S373 was updated to only include 9 species..... Because im not smart enough to recognize the scientific names I used Wikipedia to figure out what they were.
1. Python molurus Two subspecies Indian rock python and Burmese
2. Broghammeras reticulatus (Asiatic) reticulated python
3. Python sebae African rock python
4. Python natalensis Natal rock python
5. Boa constrictor Boa constrictor (red tail)
6. Eunectes notaeus yellow anaconda
7. Eunectes deschauenseei dark-spotted anaconda
8. Eunectes murinus green anaconda
9. Eunectes beniensis Bolivian anaconda
Hopefully I got all of this correct (please correct if wrong.) I am not trying to lecture or anything just trying to help make people aware.

I am the proud owner of 8 ball pythons, 1 columbian red tail, 1 corn snake,1 bearded dragon, 3 leopard geckos, 1 parrot, 2 pacman frogs,3 dogs and 3 cats. I am afraid that if this passes it will only be the begining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

The boa market is huge, I can't see that staying on the bill. Literally 90% of the boa market is in B.C.X species.

Anyone frequent any boa forums? Are they paying attention to this?

---

Actually yes, Over at one of the Red tail forum s(RTB.COM) I am a member o we have been working hard. Even before the amedment. One of the things that shocked me was the lack effert at a burm and retic forum.


My next course of action is to make a flyers and print some premade letters. I plan to include USARK, BP, and RTB as info sources.

Everybody please keep up the call, emails, faxes , and letters
Thanks Chris

Dont forget to also fight for the anaconda keepers, the burmese python keepers, the reticulated python keepers and the african rock python keepers also. Remember united we stand divided we fall! The big keepers have just as much right to keep these animals as ball python and boa keepers have to keep there animals. We need to stick together and fight as a team. NOT FIGHT TO GET BOAS OFF!