14 months since this guy ate....

I've posted a few times about this guy at various times during his "feeding strike". I haven't done one in a while so I thought I post another update!

This is Konjou, a male '07 I got from Tim Bailey at about 5 weeks of age. He ate an appropriately sized F/T mouse every week for a year with the occasional refusal. In August of '08 we evacuated from Hurricane Gustav. I had a LOT of snakes in a motel room for 5 days! On returning home he ate once, Sept 18th, and since then NOTHING!

Here are some photos taken today:

http://www.wax32.com/balls/images/111309_konjou1.jpg

http://www.wax32.com/balls/images/111309_konjou2.jpg

http://www.wax32.com/balls/images/111309_konjou3.jpg

http://www.wax32.com/balls/images/111309_konjou4.jpg

He seems healthy. He has lost some weight, but by no means does he look "starved". I mean he hasn't eaten in a year so some drop in weight is reasonable! He weighed 635g in December of last year (after not eating for 3 months). Today he weighs 514g.

So what do you guys think?

I have tried various numbers of hides, from 2 to 1 to none. He has a water bowl which I keep clean. His temps are good... same rack as my other 2 balls, exact same setups.

I've been told (last year around this time) that he probably just wants to breed. Well, too bad for him as my '08 pastel female is only borderline big enough and if I was going to breed her this year I'd for sure put her to my pinstripe!

I'm at a loss as to what to do next. :D

By the way, the specks you may see on him and on me are not mites they are bits of moss from his hide... :D

do you feed live mice rats ASFs,if not try it!

Go get him a dose of Flagyl, and BG bets he'll eat shortly after that. You need to do something. Snakes that haven't eaten for a long time can look fine one day, and the next be near death. It's been too long...you need to do something drastic....even if it's assist feeding. BG would find some flagyl first though. It works for BG 90% of the time.

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Originally Posted by greghall

do you feed live mice rats ASFs,if not try it!

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I've tried live and F/T mice and rats of various sizes. Not ASF's tho...

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Go get him a dose of Flagyl, and BG bets he'll eat shortly after that. You need to do something. Snakes that haven't eaten for a long time can look fine one day, and the next be near death. It's been too long...you need to do something drastic....even if it's assist feeding. BG would find some flagyl first though. It works for BG 90% of the time.

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Gonna have to call my vet I reckon. I'll give that a try.

Hmm, my vet would need a stool sample to decide if the snake needs flagyl... hard to get one of those from a snake that hasn't eaten in 14 months!

Assist-feed him a decent-sized prey item, wait, and get the stool sample. This is what I would do, at this point.

Hi,

I seem to recall they can take a wash from the vent and test that for certain things.


dr del

before you stress him out with assist feeding.. Try an ASF?

Remember ASF's are the natural food for the BP's..

alot of ppl cant get asfs, so try a normal gerbil, its almost like a asf, unless of course u can get your hads on some african soft furred rats

Good ideas all....

Tim has some ASF's across the lake. Maybe I'll see if I can get one from him.

I tried to assist feed him a mouse a couple of weeks ago... he freaked out a LOT and stressed ME out so I gave up!

he lives in a city gotta be someone that breeds them, try a wanted ad in the classifieds

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

he lives in a city gotta be someone that breeds them, try a wanted ad in the classifieds

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Yup, I think we cross posted! Tim Bailey lives about an hour from me. I know he raises them, it's just a matter of whether or not he has any available to sell me. He will probably be at the LA Reptile expo today in my area... gonna pass by there and see what's up.

Well, Tim didn't have any ASFs but he did have a lot of sweet balls! There was a vendor there selling live ASFs though. so I picked up a pair plus an extra. The extra is in with the snake right now. The snake is sorta checking him out, but so far doesn't look interested in eating. I'll check again in a little while and if he hasn't eaten him I'll take him out.

Great :gj:

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Originally Posted by reptidude1

Great :gj:

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If he eats it anyway... if he doesn't my wife will be mad that I have more pets!

As a foot note I was talking to Tim about the snake and he told me not to worry. He has some males that only eat a couple times a year and stay in the 600g range. He was like " Maybe that snake is just going to stay small."

:rolleye2:

I had a pastel I got back in may. He ate one time, then absolutely refused to eat. We went on like that for several months and then she started to look flat and his weight started to drop. I dewormed him. Still no food. Of course all through this I was watching him very closely. I took him to the vet about 3 weeks ago. No stool spec, even with rinse :( . She gave him a broad spectrum and flagyl. It was the magic bullet for sure. He's eating like a champ and I am thrilled!

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Originally Posted by singingtothewheat

I had a pastel I got back in may. He ate one time, then absolutely refused to eat. We went on like that for several months and then she started to look flat and his weight started to drop. I dewormed him. Still no food. Of course all through this I was watching him very closely. I took him to the vet about 3 weeks ago. No stool spec, even with rinse :( . She gave him a broad spectrum and flagyl. It was the magic bullet for sure. He's eating like a champ and I am thrilled!

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Broad spectrum antibiotic? How were these meds administered, orally? Also, did they do just one dose or did you go back for a second one.

So after about 45 minutes I went and looked...

http://www.wax32.com/balls/images/111409_konjou1.jpg

Doesn't look interested. Put the rat in the cage with the other ones. Now I wish I specified 2 females. :D If they start to fight I'll have to feed him off to one of my other balls I guess.

Try putting him in a smaller tub.

The flagyl thing seems to work well for a lot too. :gj:

He was in a smaller tub we he quit eating... I moved him up to see if that would make a difference. :D

Gonna call my vet on monday, she doesn't usually do snakes but I think I can talk her into giving him some flagyl.

Just leave the ASF in there, in my opinion. My pastel, ED, went off feed for like 3 months, and I had to leave a mouse in his enclosure for a day and a half before he ate it. Its still been a struggle, but hes eatting regularly.

If you take him to the vet, you can ask for a tube feeding with some flagyl mixed in, hopefully it'll kick start his feeding response.

Just leave that ASF in there and don't bother him, he should take it in a day. He seems stressed, so let him go about his business for a few days. Meaning leave him alone, don't even open his tub for a day.

Hi,

That really is a recipie for a badly chewed snake.


dr del

From an ASF? Its my understanding thier right in between mice and rats? I guess I wasn't worried because I did mine with a mouse, but if ASFs are really that much bigger, then yes, take it out and try it with a live mouse...

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

From an ASF? Its my understanding thier right in between mice and rats? I guess I wasn't worried because I did mine with a mouse, but if ASFs are really that much bigger, then yes, take it out and try it with a live mouse...

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I've left a mouse in with him overnight. When I got up in the morning the mouse was gone... I was like, "WHooo HOOOO!"

Then I lifted the hide and the mouse was in there with the snake sleeping! :D

Hi,

You got lucky.

I'm sorry but that's the plain truth.

A mouse can chew through a plank of wood. A snakes flesh poses no problems.

If you are going to leave a feeder in with a snake unattended then you have to use one young enough not to have that kind of dentition and chewing power developed.

In this case a fuzzy rat would be a better choice for unattended feeding overnight based on size.

I'd take it out and try again at a later date.


dr del

I'm gonna call the doc monday and see if she will give him 100mg of flagyl orally with a syringe. I've done that sort of thing with mineral oil before to un-constipate a snake that had eaten too many long haired hamsters. :D

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

You got lucky.

I'm sorry but that's the plain truth.

A mouse can chew through a plank of wood. A snakes flesh poses no problems.

If you are going to leave a feeder in with a snake unattended then you have to use one young enough not to have that kind of dentition and chewing power developed.

In this case a fuzzy rat would be a better choice for unattended feeding overnight based on size.

I'd take it out and try again at a later date.


dr del

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Yeah, I know I was lucky! It was a weaned / hopper mouse so I decided to take a risk. I wouldn't suggest that anyone do that. I also left a nice pile of lab nuggets in there for him plus an apple slice. The apple slice was partially eaten and the nuggets were untouched. I actually did get up in the middle of the night (three hours in) and checked on him. He was cowering in a corner. Three hours later (when I got up) I checked again and that is when I found him in the hide.

I for sure don't condone or recommend leaving an adult mouse or any rat with teeth in with a snake for any length of time. *edit: In fact I don't eschew feeding live prey at all if it can be avoided. I have had snakes (that were finicky with F/T) bitten hard by both adult mice and small rats. Luckily no major injuries, but some scarring occurred!

You are spot on dr del!

Also, I have tried a live fuzzy rat overnight to no avail.

I really do appreciate all the responses. I am willing to try anything that is SAFE for my snake. He may only be a $40 "normal" but he is a living creature that I care about, just like all my pets. :D

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

From an ASF? Its my understanding thier right in between mice and rats? I guess I wasn't worried because I did mine with a mouse, but if ASFs are really that much bigger, then yes, take it out and try it with a live mouse...

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An adult male ASF is about the size of a small rat. An adult male breeder is about twice that size. :rage:

Hi,

I take it you have already tried stuffing the tub with crumpled up newspaper to boost security?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I take it you have already tried stuffing the tub with crumpled up newspaper to boost security?


dr del

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I have, but all I got in return was wet newspaper when he pushed it in his water bowl. I really tend to think security might be an issue with this snake. He seems really chicken. I will try this again though, I haven't tried it in a while. Should I let him adjust to that for a few days and then try the live ASF again?

http://www.wax32.com/images/yourock.gif

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Originally Posted by Danounet

An adult male ASF is about the size of a small rat. An adult male breeder is about twice that size. :rage:

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Yeah they are bigger than a mouse.

The ASF I have to attempt to feed him with is a little bigger than a "jumbo mouse", which are retired breeders, this should give you idea of his size. He is smaller than the "small rats" from rodent pro.

Brb. Gonna go crumple some newspaper.

For me, taking a risk at a small scar is a small price to pay to get a snake eatting again. If ever I thought my snake would be in danger from a live mouse, I wouldn't leave it unattended. I left the mouse some cardboard to shred on his own. I was more worried about the mouse chewing through the tub enough to escape.

While is may seem cruel to risk bodily harm for a greater good, I for one am all for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

For me, taking a risk at a small scar is a small price to pay to get a snake eatting again. If ever I thought my snake would be in danger from a live mouse, I wouldn't leave it unattended. I left the mouse some cardboard to shred on his own. I was more worried about the mouse chewing through the tub enough to escape.

While is may seem cruel to risk bodily harm for a greater good, I for one am all for it.

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Yeah. That's why I have done it in the past. Sometimes bites can happen. They also sometimes get infected which I really worry about. Like I said, I try to avoid it whenever possible, but it isn't always possible!

I have now stuffed his tub with loosely crumple newspaper. I'll see if he moves around any later and if so I'll maybe try sticking the ASF in there with him for a little while again.

I just wish this guy would eat!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

For me, taking a risk at a small scar is a small price to pay to get a snake eatting again. If ever I thought my snake would be in danger from a live mouse, I wouldn't leave it unattended. I left the mouse some cardboard to shred on his own. I was more worried about the mouse chewing through the tub enough to escape.

While is may seem cruel to risk bodily harm for a greater good, I for one am all for it.

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A few scars or a bloody dying snake?
No offense, but there are better ways to go about it and risking your snake's life is not one of them.

I'm hoping Flagyl will work for him like everyone seems to think it will. :D And I'm also hoping my vet isn't chicken of snakes. I don't think she will be, she seems pretty together in the 7 years I've been going there with my mammals. :D

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

A few scars or a bloody dying snake?
No offense, but there are better ways to go about it and risking your snake's life is not one of them.

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I'm pretty sure he meant a few scars... like don't leave the prey item unattended for long if it has teeth.

I personally even hate the idea of a few scars! I like my snakes to be purty!

It also doesn't help that I think rodents are cute and I hate seeing them squished while living.

I'm sorry, but the day when a 30 gram mouse can take down a 400 gram snake with a few nibbles, let me know.

As I said, at no point did I feel like his life was in danger from the mouse, and it was call for drastic measures. I have not fed live since, and he is finally eatting more then 1 mouse a week. It was, and still is an uphill battle after 7 months without food, and hes still half the size he should be at his age.

But, this is not about me, this is about Wax's snake. I'm sorry we've been getting so off topic.

At any rate, hes not eatting anything, live, f/t, or p/k? Have you noticed him drinking? and which tub is he located in? Its a strange question, but if its getting cool in your house and hes a lower tub, his temps (and humidity, for that matter) can be off. I'm not expert though, just a thought.

On top of the flagyl, you could ask for a dose of b-vitamins, that should increase his appetite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

I'm sorry, but the day when a 30 gram mouse can take down a 400 gram snake with a few nibbles, let me know.

As I said, at no point did I feel like his life was in danger from the mouse, and it was call for drastic measures. I have not fed live since, and he is finally eatting more then 1 mouse a week. It was, and still is an uphill battle after 7 months without food, and hes still half the size he should be at his age.

But, this is not about me, this is about Wax's snake. I'm sorry we've been getting so off topic.

At any rate, hes not eatting anything, live, f/t, or p/k? Have you noticed him drinking? and which tub is he located in? Its a strange question, but if its getting cool in your house and hes a lower tub, his temps (and humidity, for that matter) can be off. I'm not expert though, just a thought.

On top of the flagyl, you could ask for a dose of b-vitamins, that should increase his appetite.

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The off topic-ness is ok. :D

My rack is actually three tubs lined up horizontally on a rack from Lowes with heat tape under the tubs! So all the same. He was also in my bed room in a 20 long set up properly when he first stopped eating. So I don't think location is it. Good idea though!

The snake-room is kept in the high 70's with a room heater and then I have a helix stat wired to 12" flexwatt under the tubs. The helix is set at 95 which keeps the warm end at about 90. Humidity hasn't been a problem... good shed all around. The non-eater even sheds well.

I'll note that beside the 3 BP's I also have 14 corns and a king in the same room. (I realize colubrids have different needs.) All are doing well except for the one bp and one bloodred corn I have that has never been a good eater. The colubrids are basically at room temp. I have a ranco stat on them that doesn't let them get below 80, just in case! :D

Well, looks like flagyl + b-vitamins gets my vote. I'm out of ideas!

Only thing I can think of would be internal parasites, but thats impossible to determine without a stool sample, which is impossible without eating! Crazy cycle.

Now that you have the newspaper in, I would let him settle before introducing a prey item, a day or 2 should suffice. If you're trying constantly, that could really stress him out. Try once every 7 days is the rule of thumb as I've heard, but I'm sure you know that. You seem to be on top of our game with your snakes.

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

Well, looks like flagyl + b-vitamins gets my vote. I'm out of ideas!

Only thing I can think of would be internal parasites, but thats impossible to determine without a stool sample, which is impossible without eating! Crazy cycle.

Now that you have the newspaper in, I would let him settle before introducing a prey item, a day or 2 should suffice. If you're trying constantly, that could really stress him out. Try once every 7 days is the rule of thumb as I've heard, but I'm sure you know that. You seem to be on top of our game with your snakes.

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Thanks...

Yeah I'm gonna let him settle in and try again in a few days. Probably later in the week after a vet visit and at the very least some Flagyl. I'll ask about the b-vitamins and also about broad spectrum antibiotics like someone else mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

... Have you noticed him drinking?

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I meant to respond to this too...

Actually NO. I guess he has to be, or he'd be dead. But I never see him drink (not that I really see any of my snakes drink much) and his water bowl never gets empty like some of my other snakes.

Thoughts on this?

what is flagyl and how does it get snakes to eat again?

If you want a vet that knows about snakes and have the time, I'd suggest taking him to the LSU small animal vet clinic. I live in Baton Rouge and have close to 200 snakes myself and anytime I've had any trouble I've taken them there and they take great care of them. The main vet is obsessed with tortoises himself so he understands our love for our reptiles.

Also you may want to possibly raise your temps up a little bit. If I have snakes not eating almost every time I've raised the temps up they start eating just fine. Some snakes just don't want to eat for a while...take him for a drive for a couple hours and see how that works. I got about 10 snakes that wouldn't hardly eat for the person I got them from and all eat amazingly right now...so who knows for sure....

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Originally Posted by jgaumer

what is flagyl and how does it get snakes to eat again?

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It's an antibiotic, and it also sometimes acts as an appetite stimulant.

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

If you want a vet that knows about snakes and have the time, I'd suggest taking him to the LSU small animal vet clinic. I live in Baton Rouge and have close to 200 snakes myself and anytime I've had any trouble I've taken them there and they take great care of them. The main vet is obsessed with tortoises himself so he understands our love for our reptiles.

Also you may want to possibly raise your temps up a little bit. If I have snakes not eating almost every time I've raised the temps up they start eating just fine. Some snakes just don't want to eat for a while...take him for a drive for a couple hours and see how that works. I got about 10 snakes that wouldn't hardly eat for the person I got them from and all eat amazingly right now...so who knows for sure....

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I raised my room temp a few degrees a few days ago. The other 2 balls are eating fine but you never know! I might try bumping up my flexwatt a little too.