a little confused on leucistics

hey there, my boyfriend has absolutely 100% fallen madly in love with white snakes. all of a sudden he doesn't care about my killerbee project, he just wants to make white snakes! i was doing some research and came across this thread: BEL's. it says that a

Mojave X Mojave
Lesser X Lesser
Butter X Butter

will all make blue eyed leucistics. however, i'm not sure if you guys are familiar with this program, i picked it up over at CS.com. the program is called the GenericGenWiz. when i input Mojave x Mojave into the genwiz, i get
25% Normal
50% Mojave
25% Super Mojave

so i'm a little confused. is a super mojave a BEL? it's just so amazing to me what a white snake comes from. mojaves don't look like BEL's AT ALL! and ivorys don't look like yellow bellies AT ALL either! genetics are crazy and totally confusing! but i'm getting a much better handle on it, the sticky's in the section are infinitely helpful.

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so i'm a little confused. is a super mojave a BEL?

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Yes the super Mojave is a BEL so is the Super Butter and Super Lesser.

also, what on earth is a Russo? is that a morph, or a certain line of snakes?

Vin Russo is a breeder (mostly boas I think) who produced some of the first leucistics proving his own line of blue eyed leucistic hets. It appears to be a unique mutation of the same gene as Lesser/Butter, Mojave, Phantom/Mystic, Hidden, and Special. I think I was writing up my long winded reply to the thread linked in the first post of this thread while this thread was starting. Hopefully I got most of it right and didn't leave too much out but if you really want a long read on the subject go there.

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Originally Posted by katia

hey there, my boyfriend has absolutely 100% fallen madly in love with white snakes. all of a sudden he doesn't care about my killerbee project, he just wants to make white snakes! i was doing some research and came across this thread: BEL's. it says that a

Mojave X Mojave
Lesser X Lesser
Butter X Butter

will all make blue eyed leucistics. however, i'm not sure if you guys are familiar with this program, i picked it up over at CS.com. the program is called the GenericGenWiz. when i input Mojave x Mojave into the genwiz, i get
25% Normal
50% Mojave
25% Super Mojave

so i'm a little confused. is a super mojave a BEL? it's just so amazing to me what a white snake comes from. mojaves don't look like BEL's AT ALL! and ivorys don't look like yellow bellies AT ALL either! genetics are crazy and totally confusing! but i'm getting a much better handle on it, the sticky's in the section are infinitely helpful.

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If you want a truly white snake don't use two mojaves. I would go with a female mojave and a male lesser. That is probably your cheapest option to get a white snake that is actually white.

For the whitest of the white, go for Fire X Fire
And you might get one of these

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2605/...37fea658_b.jpg

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Originally Posted by hogboy

For the whitest of the white, go for Fire X Fire
And you might get one of these

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2605/...37fea658_b.jpg

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I love the fire's, but it seems like most of them end up with some yellow scales. Yours looks perfect. Wish they all looked like that.

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Originally Posted by hogboy

For the whitest of the white, go for Fire X Fire
And you might get one of these

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most firexfire breedings ive seen have yellow spots, sure theres nice pure white ones but i think their in the minority, but if you want black eyes, i don't think you got a choice.

as far as blue eyes go, id say just stay away from mojaves and you got a good chance of pure white snakes.

Lesser/Lesser. That's the way to go, by far the best results.

Well.......... unless you can get 2 in Russos, but that'd be costly.

thanks a lot guys! we will be attending the BCRC show and sale in BC, Canada this september, hoping to pick up a pair to make white snakes! also, im getting a male pastel, a pair of caramel corns, a pair of bloodred corns, hopefully some striped or het stripe corns, and who knows what else! recently i`ve fallen hopelessly in love with caramel albinos...but they seem very, very pricey. henry piorun had some advertised for $3000 each! i have no idea if those prices are current or not though, so i guess we`ll see when we get to the show!

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

most firexfire breedings ive seen have yellow spots, sure theres nice pure white ones but i think their in the minority, but if you want black eyes, i don't think you got a choice.

as far as blue eyes go, id say just stay away from mojaves and you got a good chance of pure white snakes.

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I'm the opposite-I've seen several jaw-dropping, pure white black-eyed lucys, but every blue-eyed I see seems to have some washes of pigmentation somewhere on it. So my guess is that overall the proportions of pigmented leucistics is about equal between the black and blue eyed types-but I don't think you can beat the iNTENSITY of the white on a good black-eyed leucy (see above snake)....

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3231.jpg

Above is the Extreme Paradox Super Sulfur

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3193.jpg

Same Super

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP3187.jpg

Same snake

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP2863.jpg

Above snake is a Super Mojave that might be a Sulfur Super Mojave.

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/r...l/IMGP2857.jpg

Same Super Mojave


So, if you want a white snake with a purple head, go Mojave x Mojave, if you want a cleaner Blue Eyed Lucy, you might try Lesser x Mojave or Lesser x Lesser, or a combo of Lesser, Mojave, Butter, with a Russo. If you want a Black Eyed Lucy, you only have one option, Het Black Eyed Lucies from the Fire line, Sulfur, or Flame line. I think the amount of orange and yellow on the Black Eyed Lucy will vary just like the amount of white on a Pied varies. Flip of the coin I guess. I personally like the blotches on the Super Sulfurs, but clean Super Sulfurs have been produced too.

What Flame Line?

I do not know for sure, so do not quote me, but someone said Amir has his own line of Het Black Eyed Lucy, called the Flame.

Dave

my jaw just dropped! the 3rd picture of the Extreme Paradox Super Sulfur is just SO adorable!

Yeah like everyone else is saying, Mojave's will make lucy's but they are usually "dirty" Lucy's.. Not as white as you can make.. Plus the eyes are not quite as bright blue. Which is why im getting a BEL from a Russo Het x Lesser combo & a Butter female. Putting these 2 together (depending on clutch size) i have good odds of getting clean white BEL's, Butters, Russo's, & Lesser's. It will be an exciting clutch since the anticipation of whats in those eggs will kill me!

Try to stay away from Mojave if you really want a clean pure white snake. But they do make other nice combos like Mojave Pastels (Pastave) Mojave Lessers etc..

I guess what all this comes down to is:

Look at the luecistics produced by the lines you are breeding, almost every BEL combination has been explored, go find pictures of each and decide what you like the best and go for that. I'm a fan of super fires and lessers, others are fans of other things. If you want a super mojave, buy mojaves, if you want a Russo Lesser, then breed them.

well we are attending the BCRC show and sale on the 26th. i'm really hoping to see some BEL's in person. even the best photographer can never really do a snake justice, and a photo of a snake can be rather different than what it actually looks like in real life. so i'm hoping to see a few examples of each and then decide. i think the BF wants to get a pair of yellowbellies regardless, and i think he wants a lesser platinum female and a mojave male. but who knows!

PS a random question, does lesser ALWAYS mean lesser platinum? or is there such a thing as lesser pastels, etc? i get a little confused by this.

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Originally Posted by katia

well we are attending the BCRC show and sale on the 26th. i'm really hoping to see some BEL's in person. even the best photographer can never really do a snake justice, and a photo of a snake can be rather different than what it actually looks like in real life. so i'm hoping to see a few examples of each and then decide. i think the BF wants to get a pair of yellowbellies regardless, and i think he wants a lesser platinum female and a mojave male. but who knows!

PS a random question, does lesser ALWAYS mean lesser platinum? or is there such a thing as lesser pastels, etc? i get a little confused by this.

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A lesser pastel would be a lesser platinum pastel, it has the two morphs involved. Like a Fire Pastel or a Het Ghost Lesser, or... well you get the idea.

okay well i guess what i'm asking is what definines a lesser; what does lesser mean? is it a visual (phenotypical is the word, i believe) thing? when most people say "oh i just picked up a pair of lessers" they most likely mean platinums, right?

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Originally Posted by katia

okay well i guess what i'm asking is what definines a lesser; what does lesser mean? is it a visual (phenotypical is the word, i believe) thing? when most people say "oh i just picked up a pair of lessers" they most likely mean platinums, right?

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There are 2 platinums that I know of.

Platinum (also known as the Platty Daddy)
Lesser Platinum (almost always referred to as Lesser)

okay great, getting a grip on a very small part of this...i'm used to corn genetics!

I agree, if you want a really white snake don't go with the mojaves, they are no where near pure white. I'd say lesserxlesser

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

There are 2 platinums that I know of.

Platinum (also known as the Platty Daddy)
Lesser Platinum (almost always referred to as Lesser)

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just to elaborate on what you said

Platinum = hidden gene, look up ralph davis reptiles and read all about it. well ill make it easy heres the link.... http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...all_python.asp

i think people are straying away form saying lesser platinum, it might help avoid this confussion right here

and yes it is visual, mine as a baby had a silver hue to him and he out grew it and nows hes turning a bright sandy color. i would say tan but the tan color glows.

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Originally Posted by katia

okay well i guess what i'm asking is what definines a lesser; what does lesser mean? is it a visual (phenotypical is the word, i believe) thing? when most people say "oh i just picked up a pair of lessers" they most likely mean platinums, right?

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Platinum is a different snake it is a combo of Lesser Platinum & a normal looking "hidden gene carrier". To see a Platinum look at RDR's Platty Daddy. So Lesser is the short name for Lesser Platinum. ;)