Put it down already

This post is not directed towards anyone in particular. It is just a topic that should bring some pretty interesting conversation if everyone keeps their cool.

I am seeing more and more threads where people are going above and beyond to keep deformed / undeveloped / dying hatchlings alive for as long as possible...

Why are you doing this? I think every case is different but in many cases it is just down right cruel and disgusting. Bad kinks, deformities, snakes that refuse to even swallow on their own after a couple attempts are all good examples. Quit thinking about your own heartbreak when you have to place the baby in the freezer and instead think about the hell you are putting that poor baby thru. It's NOT about you. Put the poor thing down already and move on!

:gj: you may now reply... keep your head about you and express your opinions on this touchy subject.

I agree 100% with you. (Mike) Not every baby was meant to survive and there is no reason to prolong the inevitable. It's just natures way.

I feel the same. I think that after so much trying, you should be able to tell if the animal will be ok. We should all remember that we are in this for the animals, and we should do right by them.

You FREEZE your babies?

You're an evil evil man.

Old Indians will haunt your dreams.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You FREEZE your babies?

You're an evil evil man.

Old Indians will haunt your dreams.

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LOL!

When you get a chance Wes I would really be interested to hear your opinion on this subject.....

I put them down. If it's kinked, not just bent a little, in the freezer. Same for any serious deformity, head, eyes, whatever. Fortunately it is rare, but I've been doing it long enough that I've seen a lot.

If it can't eat on it's own, drink by itself, move from warm to cold, it's culled.

Oh, by the way, going off the title of this thread, I was expecting something more along the lines of a Just say No thread.

A question that I would ask myself is

"Would it survive in the wild?"

If the answer is no then it is a candidate for euthanasia....

Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?

Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post

If its clearly not going to live normally, eat normally, or defecate normally, then yes, I will put it down.

I agree with you Mike. Hatchlings with such a low life quality should not be forced to live.

100% agree.

I also this the practice (that's getting more widespread) of egg cutting isn't right.

Getting out of the egg is part of the animals natural development process, it helps provide them with strength they will need further down the line.

Now even newbie breeders think egg cutting, purely to find out whats in there, is perfectly normal. Sometimes I think people completely lose sight of the fact that breeding animals is you being allowed to participate and observe a natural process. They really do just see their animals as egg machines :(

I remember seeing pictures of a very, very well respected US breeders collection some years back (probably circa '99-00). one of his spiders was a corkscrewing trainwreck, his breeder male caramel albino was kinked like a golf club, I wonder what effect we'll see another 10 years down the line in this hobby from irresponsible practices and breeding.

I agree. My only problem is I hate for things to go to waste. It SHOULD be a while before I run into that situation much if at all, but I've been tossing around the idea of getting a blackhead python or something similar to feed them off to.

Doesn't ralph davis have some pretty badly kinked caramel albinos that are living perfectly healthy?

Mike, I agree with you 110%. If the animal will not or can not survive on its own, then it should be culled. There is a reason that snakes are the way they are and have survived all these years; it's called natural selection. Not every baby is meant to survive. Some are meant to be the decoys so that the healthy may escape predators.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

I agree. My only problem is I hate for things to go to waste. It SHOULD be a while before I run into that situation much if at all, but I've been tossing around the idea of getting a blackhead python or something similar to feed them off to.

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Find someone with a cobra.

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Originally Posted by tbowman

Doesn't ralph davis have some pretty badly kinked caramel albinos that are living perfectly healthy?

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Just because it's survived (with who knows how much help at first) does not give anyone the right to knowingly breed defective animals like that. Give it away as a pet to someone trusted, keep it around the place but NEVER breed from it.

Nor does mere survival mean it's healthy and happy. For all we know that animal could be in pain, some a little or lots, of every minute of every day. Remember ball pythons have no way of saying "my spine causes me a small amount of pain every time I move".

Now don't get me wrong, it could also be perfectly healthy in every way. I'm not saying "i'm right and you're wrong" but I am definately saying animals like that should never be bred from. And IKNOW that they have been and probably are still being bred form by a great many.


Ever wonder how many kinked caramels and super cinnies end up in the freezer? I wonder if it's higher than the number of them that are just kept back and bred from?

With certain projects you know you are buying into a problem (if you've researched). I mean things like caramels kinking, super cinnies kinking and duckbilling, spider wobbling and spinning/corkscrewing).A responsible breeder will do anyhting possible to outcross, strenghten and minimise the bad traits where possible. The responsible ones.

How many are less repsonsible and don't see an animal they shouldn't sell or breed from but merely see it as $1000/2000/5000/10000 in a tub in a snake rack.

Responsible breeders spend years outcrossing to try and alleviate these problems and all the while x% of breeders at the other end do the exact opposite because they couldn't possibly euthanise an $X000 animal but nor could they really sell an animal thats got a few bumps along it's back or a kink that "doesn't bother it" or a face thats not quite right so there it stays and it gets used in breeding.

I'm of the mindset that if you decide to take on the responsibility of breeding ANY animal, you knowingly inherit the risks of dealing with underdeveloped and deformed babies.
Herp breeding is no different. It is up to each and every person who decides to breed these snakes to make a conscious decision to put down ANY snake that is not developed or has suffered deformities in order to preserve the integrity of the species. A failure to do so will only populate the python population with more and more deformed snakes and will eventually impact the overall breeding capability of pythons everywhere. We all must realize that, especially with new legislation forming almost daily now to try and rid pythons from captivity, we must ensure we breed the best possible specimens available for the sake of our hobby.
One thought to ponder here that hasn't been touched on. There are special interest groups worldwide who thrive on trying to shut down herp pet owning due to their own ignorance of the species. Imagine the fuel we would give these groups if they caught wind that there were breeders out there KNOWINGLY breeding deformed snakes all for the sake of turning a profit. They would have a field day with us and we could face even more legal battles trying to save our rights to own not only our beloved balls, but herps of all species.
I, personally, have contemplated breeding pythons in the future and have started doing alot of research about what morphs lend themselves to more successful breeding practices and so forth. Anyone who decides to get itno this side of python ownership really needs to take their time, ensure they have the room and ability to properly breed these snakes, and be prepared to have to euthanize any snakes that don't develop properly. I also don't understand the cutting open of the eggs as I thought these snakes are fully capable of entering the world on their own. So, if I'm to understand what's been said here previously, we have people that, all for the sake of curiosity, they are taking it upon themselves to cut open eggs just to see what is inside? If that is indeed the case, then you are tampering with the natural process of reproduction and you are only mulitplying the chances of producing babies that are unable to survive on their own.
Bottom line is this. If you want to breed these awesome animals, then breed them, but let nature take it's course and that includes letting these babies come into the world ON THEIR OWN.
Sorry if I stepped on any toes here, but you can't reasonably expect to produce fully healthy babies by interfering with the natural order of things.

Listen, I fully agree with the practice of culling sick or underdeveloped/deformed babies. I also agree that we should not breed kinked or deformed animals. But I am not quite sure how cutting eggs even enters into this discussion. Tampering with the natural process of reproduction? Hardly. A baby is either going to make it or it isn't. Unless you are cutting eggs and popping the babies out to see what you have or moving the baby around in the egg, then how exactly are you multiplying the chances of producing non viable babies?

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Originally Posted by bevilla

Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?

Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post

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Freezing. Most believe it is the most humane way to put a reptile down. This too has been its own subject of threads many times over. There is a few ways to do it but the most commonly practiced by both breeders and veterinarians is freezing.

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Originally Posted by mason

100% agree.

I also this the practice (that's getting more widespread) of egg cutting isn't right.

Getting out of the egg is part of the animals natural development process, it helps provide them with strength they will need further down the line.

Now even newbie breeders think egg cutting, purely to find out whats in there, is perfectly normal. Sometimes I think people completely lose sight of the fact that breeding animals is you being allowed to participate and observe a natural process. They really do just see their animals as egg machines :(

I remember seeing pictures of a very, very well respected US breeders collection some years back (probably circa '99-00). one of his spiders was a corkscrewing trainwreck

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Now his is where it gets a little complicated.

Egg cutting. I don't see any problems with it. It has no negative effect on the babies as long as it is done correctly and at the right time. In my opinion the right time is once the first eggs pip, any that still haven't piped the next day get cut. If the baby is deformed when the cut is done then back to my origional point.

Spiders. Wobbling is a trait of the morph period. There has been MANY threads on this so lets try not to get too hung up on it in this post. A wobbbling spider eats, drinks, reproduces, and lives just fine all by itself. Its strange behavior is simply what a spider does. Bottom line is, if you have a spider it wobbles, corkscrews, whatever you want to call it. If your spider does not have the wobbles then either you haven't had it long enough, or you don't know what to look for. IMHO the spider morph should not be considered a deformity for the purposes of this discussion.

Hard as it would be to shove a new baby in a freezer, I think if quality of life came into question I would try and make the right decision. Of course, I'm only a year into the hobby with three to go before I even have a chance of facing such a dilemma.

Heh, to be honest it reminds me of a puppy my mom produced last year. I understand that it's not a reptile, but I do believe the story is relevant to the topic. My mother used to breed Australian Shepherds, and all the litters were 100% healthy until this last one. We had one puppy, a real runt, that took a little bit extra to get started (She wasn't breathing when she was born, but a lot of rubbing and other things got her going). She also looked a bit off, but we completely disregarded that - she was alive, she ate, she poo'd, and she crawled just like the rest of the litter. A month passed and everyone's eyes were open, and this little pup (now called Tiny) was still very obviously the runt of the litter. She'd grown a teensy bit, but nothing compared to her siblings. Shortly after her eyes opened, however, she started going down hill. She wouldn't eat, but we assumed it was due to the bigger pups pushing her out of the way so decided to hand feed her instead. After about a week of that, she didn't show much improvement - but she did eat, she did poo, and she did still walk around just like the others. Then one day she just started letting out these absolutely horrible, agonized screams. Within an hour of the first scream she was euthanized, and the only explanation the vet could give us was her liver had likely never developed correctly.

Faced with a potentially similar situation in my snakes - an under developed baby - I would hope that at the first sign of difficulty (never eating, obvious defects, etc) I could get myself to cull the hatchling. I regret very much having not just let that puppy be "born dead", since she obviously died in a lot of pain. That was a creature that could tell me it was in pain too - how would I ever know if a snake was in that much agony until it finally just died?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Listen, Tampering with the natural process of reproduction? Hardly.

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Do we do practice this technique with other animals or even humans? No. We do have ways of ensuring the maturity of babies in humans through modern medicine, hence allowing us to induce labor and so forth.
But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world.
You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?

my apologies, the egg cutting thing was just a side-rant. not related to the topic at hand. I just disagree when I see amateur routinely cutting eggs at day X. Wait for the damn things to pip :)

Ditto with the spider, not using that as an example of a problem that responsible breeding can fix, merely listing all the known issues that came to mind of the top of my head,Perhaps I should have stuck to the relevant ones such as kinked super blacks/super cinnies, kinking caramels, duckbilling in certain supers etc etc.

BUT on the spider issue if people had been less willing to accept thier behavious as "ok" OR breeders had been more open and honest about their problems from the off then perhaps there wouldn't be so many thousands of spiders bred and more people would have just said "no thanks". Other than that you're right, it's not really a relevant topic for discussion in this thread.

Please don't let the small off topic parts of my post become the focus here, most of it was relevant.

We have culled in the apst, fortunately it's rare, certain morphs and projects just increase the chances.Some to the point of an almost certainty.

I'll say this final thing about egg cutting.

It DOES interfere. a python in the wild that could not pip on it's own would perish. IT also can cause harm to the snake in the egg. if you just attack it without knowing what you are doing it's possible to sever some blood vesels that the snake is still finding quite useful. IT's just not something I think should be shown to people as a "normal" thing to do. It's a bit like probing, something people should learn, but something they should be shown properly by someone with experience of it but unlike probing it shouldn't be seen as essential or normal.

Sorry for taking this off topic, back to the issue in hand.

Thanks Dalishar, that was a good relevant story.

Problem is, snakes can't scream out in main. this is why common sense with the snakes condition must be used... Dont' just force them to stay alive because they are not dead yet.

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world.
You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?

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I have never heard of a ball python dying as result of someone cutting an egg. There have even been documented case in this community where people have mistakenly cut eggs weeks early. Still with proper care the babies turned out just fine.

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Originally Posted by mason

BUT on the spider issue if people had been less willing to accept thier behavious as "ok" OR breeders had been more open and honest about their problems from the off then perhaps there wouldn't be so many thousands of spiders bred and more people would have just said "no thanks".


It DOES interfere. a python in the wild that could not pip on it's own would perish. IT also can cause harm to the snake in the egg. if you just attack it without knowing what you are doing it's possible to sever some blood vesels that the snake is still finding quite useful. IT's just not something I think should be shown to people as a "normal" thing to do. It's a bit like probing, something people should learn, but something they should be shown properly by someone with experience of it but unlike probing it shouldn't be seen as essential or normal.

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Last time I will comment on this. Spider wobbling is a trait of the morph. It does not interfere with their eating, drinking, reproducing or life. Judging by their consistent very aggressive feeding response, they do not appear to be in any discomfort. The spider / wobble trait should not be seen as "problems"

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

Do we do practice this technique with other animals or even humans? No. We do have ways of ensuring the maturity of babies in humans through modern medicine, hence allowing us to induce labor and so forth.
But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world.
You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?

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Cutting eggs in snakes and inducing labor in humans is an apples to oranges comparison. Whether I cut an egg on day 52 or wait until it pips at day 55, the baby still doesn't come out until it is ready.

the way I look at it is two fold

1: I'm limited for space and as such I know that I can't keep every slightly deformed animal I will ever produce. I also know that selling these animals is not only unfair to the animal but to the person I'm selling it to. So with limited space and no way to move the product/animal I know I will be forced to cull some of the deformed animals simply in the interest of business.

2: If the animal has the desire and drive to live. It eats and makes a whole hearten attempt at making a go of it I am of the opinion that I produce the animal intentionally and because of this I owe it the chance to survive in spite of its deformity.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Cutting eggs in snakes and inducing labor in humans is an apples to oranges comparison. Whether I cut an egg on day 52 or wait until it pips at day 55, the baby still doesn't come out until it is ready.

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AMEN!

I agree with you 100%

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Originally Posted by JasonG

AMEN!

I agree with you 100%

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Well, I'm obviously way off base here so I'll just shut up and apologize for posting in this thread.

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Originally Posted by grim reaper in NY

Well, I'm obviously way off base here so I'll just shut up and apologize for posting in this thread.

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No need to apologize. You made some good points! You were on track until the cutting argument. In my opinion it just doesn't belong in a thread about culling sick or deformed animals. There have been very valuable threads about cutting and what I would agree with is that many do it incorrectly.

I agree with you Mike!

We defy the laws of "Natural Selection" when applied to ourselves, and it's not just snakes we do this to. I've seen plenty of messed up dogs and cats that people should have put down...

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

2: If the animal has the desire and drive to live. It eats and makes a whole hearten attempt at making a go of it I am of the opinion that I produce the animal intentionally and because of this I owe it the chance to survive in spite of its deformity.

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Thanks for this! A few of you probably still remember when I took in a few animals that were deformed (some pretty badly). I fed them up and gave them some great homes as pets. I still have one boa myself... she is completely kinked, from right behind her head down to the bend in her tail. She would NOT survive in the wild (she can't contrict, nor move very fast), but she HAS survived here. She eats well every week, she sheds and poos like normal... she just has a little trouble getting around. And I try to make that as painless as possible for her. Fact is, she's six feet of absolute sweetness, one of the nicest snakes I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with.

So, my question to the those who cull: you brough an animal into the world. Where do you draw the line on it's life? You can't simply stand behind nature and say they wouldn't have survived otherwise. Very few carmels or super cinnys are born in the wild. WE create these animals... and, as long as they're willing to give it a fighting chance, I feel we have a responsibility in attempting to give them the care they deserve.

I'll step down from the soapbox now :oops:

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

So, my question to the those who cull: you brought an animal into the world. Where do you draw the line on it's life? You can't simply stand behind nature and say they wouldn't have survived otherwise. Very few carmels or super cinnys are born in the wild. WE create these animals... and, as long as they're willing to give it a fighting chance, I feel we have a responsibility in attempting to give them the care they deserve.

I'll step down from the soapbox now :oops:

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I guess that depends on the animal and what effect the deformity had on it's "quality of life" apart from human interaction. Every instance is going to be different.

You say your snake has "trouble getting around" what exactly does this mean?

Have you considered that maybe the reason it chooses not to move around much is because it experiences pain when it does?

You say it is sweet and one of the nicest snake you have? what behaviors / and or / characteristics in your opinion make it "sweet and nice?"

Disclaimer... this is not a personal attack... just a reply to what you posted.

I believe it is a personal call that each and every one of us need to learn how to make (it’s not easy).

Some people are trying too hard and do not realize that prolonging life is not always the best nor the most human option for the animal.

Culling does not (always) mean being heartless and cruel in some cases it means being human and having mercy still doesn't make it easy to do but it is one side of the hobby that anyone that breeds will have to face sooner or later.

When you determine that an animal of any kind should be put down, you are making a choice that should never be made lightly. It gives me great encouragement that while everyone for the most part agree on the need to euthanize, we all seem to approach it with the same extreem caution it deserves. Be sure and be careful any time you determine to end a life. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Mike I agree with you!

Do I dare throw another log on the fire, meh....can of worms?

What about breeding a trait which is known to exhibit neuro problems?

Example being Spiders.

I breed both Balls and Carpets, but I do not own any Spiders or Jags (Carpets) for this reason.

I would have a hard time breeding a trait (spider) that I know tends to have neurological problems affecting the animal's motorskills. Now you could add, this is where natural selection takes place and those unable feed will be put down. I choose not to take that chance. Because of this, I don't own any Spiders or Jags. Now I know there are MANY spiders out there that exhibit no wobble, or little wobble but eat just fine. That is great! It is the few spiders that do hatch out with signs of neuro problems that keep me from breeding this particular morph.

Disclaimer. I am NOT against other people breeding spiders. I don't want this post to be viewed as a "you are a bad person because you breed spiders" thread. No way am I saying this. I think spiders are a great looking morph. I love looking at all the crosses that pop up every year. I am just a but turned away from them due to the fact that SOME tend to exhibit neuro problems that may affect the snake's quality of life. I know there are A LOT of people out there with spiders that are perfectly fine. Cool. Just knowing that this is a possibility; I, myself would just feel responsible if I bred spiders, and hatched out an animal that showed signs of severe neuro damage that had to be put down.

Now I know there are a going to be a lot of people who disagree. Many of whom who own perfectly fine spiders. I just thought I would throw this out there as I am sure I am one of the few who feel this way.

That's all. :)

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Mike I agree with you!

Do I dare throw another log on the fire, meh....can of worms?

What about breeding a trait which is known to exhibit neuro problems?

Example being Spiders.

I breed both Balls and Carpets, but I do not own any Spiders or Jags (Carpets) for this reason.

I would have a hard time breeding a trait (spider) that I know tends to have neurological problems affecting the animal's motorskills. Now you could add, this is where natural selection takes place and those unable feed will be put down. I choose not to take that chance. Because of this, I don't own any Spiders or Jags. Now I know there are MANY spiders out there that exhibit no wobble, or little wobble but eat just fine. That is great! It is the few spiders that do hatch out with signs of neuro problems that keep me from breeding this particular morph.

Disclaimer. I am NOT against other people breeding spiders. I don't want this post to be viewed as a "you are a bad person because you breed spiders" thread. No way am I saying this. I think spiders are a great looking morph. I love looking at all the crosses that pop up every year. I am just a but turned away from them due to the fact that SOME tend to exhibit neuro problems that may affect the snake's quality of life. I know there are A LOT of people out there with spiders that are perfectly fine. Cool. Just knowing that this is a possibility; I, myself would just feel responsible if I bred spiders, and hatched out an animal that showed signs of severe neuro damage that had to be put down.

Now I know there are a going to be a lot of people who disagree. Many of whom who own perfectly fine spiders. I just thought I would throw this out there as I am sure I am one of the few who feel this way.

That's all. :)

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Some good thoughts. Although I am not sure that wobbling/spinning Spiders have a reduced quality of life. All I have seen eat/grow/defecate and appear to have the ability to live a normal life. My male Spider is slightly tweaked, but far from the worst I have seen. His offspring so far are not showing signs of major issues. My Albino male is much worse. For those that are uninformed, no, it's not just limited to Spiders. I have seen normals that are absolute train wrecks. You never know when it's going to pop up.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Some good thoughts. Although I am not sure that wobbling/spinning Spiders have a reduced quality of life. All I have seen eat/grow/defecate and appear to have the ability to live a normal life. My male Spider is slightly tweaked, but far from the worst I have seen. His offspring so far are not showing signs of major issues. My Albino male is much worse. For those that are uninformed, no, it's not just limited to Spiders. I have seen normals that are absolute train wrecks. You never know when it's going to pop up.

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True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

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Originally Posted by mason

True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

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I would have to question what criteria determines which flaws we accept and which we don't. Is a flaw that doesn't affect how an animal lives really a problem? I guess for some it is. What would be an unacceptable trait in a dog to an AKC breeder may not be a problem for Joe Blow who just wants a dog for a companion.

What other flaws have been accepted for the sake of beauty?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I would have to question what criteria determines which flaws we accept and which we don't. Is a flaw that doesn't affect how an animal lives really a problem? I guess for some it is. What would be an unacceptable trait in a dog to an AKC breeder may not be a problem for Joe Blow who just wants a dog for a companion.

What other flaws have been accepted for the sake of beauty?

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You know Joe Blow too!?!? He is my neighbor!









Seriously... :)

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

You know Joe Blow too!?!? He is my neighbor!









Seriously... :)

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Of course! I didn't know we lived so close to each other.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

You say your snake has "trouble getting around" what exactly does this mean?

Have you considered that maybe the reason it chooses not to move around much is because it experiences pain when it does?

You say it is sweet and one of the nicest snake you have? what behaviors / and or / characteristics in your opinion make it "sweet and nice?"

Disclaimer... this is not a personal attack... just a reply to what you posted.

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When I said she has trouble getting around: she doesn't NOT move. When you pick her up, she coils tightly, as if afraid of being dropped. You literally have to unwrap her from around your arm when you set her down. When you set her down, she coils around herself... it's like she has trouble unwinding. You can help her or leave her to her own devices, and she's goes where she wants (she can climb, etc).

As for being "sweet and nice", yes, I was anthropomorphizing an animal that doesn't feel these emotions. These are things that I feel towards her because she has never hissed or tried to take a swing at me. I have taken her to shows for educational purposes, she is fine being handled by others. That's my definition.

I guess my point is this: every single one of us plays God just a little bit when we put two viable animals together. Natural selection doesn't play into it at all... natural selection didn't put those two animals together. So, if we as we are responsible for creating the babies that pip, aren't we responsible for taking care of them? All of them?

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not going to let a creature suffer. If it literally can't move or take care of itself at all, then yes, by all means, your responsibility to that animal is to end its suffering!

It IS a case by case basis...

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Originally Posted by mason

True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

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Is your definition of a flaw anything that would hinder it in the wild? If that is the case almost every morph would fall into this category.

The Normal/Wild Type is that way for a reason. It is perfectly camouflaged for its habitat. An albino is going to stand out like a sore thumb, as would a BEL, or any other bright BP. Easier for a predator to spot their bright beautiful meal.

So by your comments should we simply cull all of our morphs because they may not have survived in the wild?

If we get into Natural Selection... most of the animals we breed shouldn't survive/exist or be as large as they become as fast, because meals aren't always readily available, nor are there frozen thawed rats in the wild. Captivity changes everything.

i havent read the entire thread, and i dont breed snakes, so idk if its worth anyones time to read wut I think, BUT:

i definately agree it's case by case. depending on how severe the "deformation" or "flaw" is, if its suffering, or if it cant eat on its own, or cant move, then put it down.

also, if I was breeding snakes, i would probably do EVERYTHING in my power to keep my babies alive, bc if YOU yourself put your hard work, dedication, time, and sweat into raising those adults to breed, praying for fertilized eggs, incubating those eggs, monitoring them closely, then awaiting that adorable little BP head to poke its head at you and greet u, rite there, uve gotten attached to the animal and u WILL do wut u need to in order to save it.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Is your definition of a flaw anything that would hinder it in the wild? If that is the case almost every morph would fall into this category.

The Normal/Wild Type is that way for a reason. It is perfectly camouflaged for its habitat. An albino is going to stand out like a sore thumb, as would a BEL, or any other bright BP. Easier for a predator to spot their bright beautiful meal.

So by your comments should we simply cull all of our morphs because they may not have survived in the wild?

If we get into Natural Selection... most of the animals we breed shouldn't survive/exist or be as large as they become as fast, because meals aren't always readily available, nor are there frozen thawed rats in the wild. Captivity changes everything.

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Please donj't twist my words. MY definition of a flaw is something that makes a royal unable to act in it's normal manner or obvious things like deformity.

Your argument about morphs is rediculous, for starters royals will, in the wild, spend 80-90%+ of their time underground. How exactly do you think these morphs came to captivity? You think every single wild caught morph is a young hatchling? Well I can tell you there are WC ADULT, sub adult, yearling and hatchling morphs coming out of africa every year, MANY morphs first hit the scene as a WC adult. There was a good sized (8-900G WC albino male sold only this year in the UK. Fresh import. EVERY year you can aquire (if you have the contacts and the money) PLENTY of WC pastels, ghosts, basic co-doms and basic recessive morphs. They Can and do survive in the wild.

I'm not talking about natural selection, nor having the captivity/nature argument.

But to answer your question succinctly: No, I do not mean anything that would hamper it in the wild (not that I consider being a different colour a problem for this species!). I mean anything that means the ball python cannot behave like a royal python be that neurological or physical.

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

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We cull too if the need arises.

I keep retics along with the balls etc and seeing one eyed albinos for sale (mainly retics and burms, but some boas too) really saddens me, because the breeder tries to justify it by selling it a bit cheaper, but all this does it pretty much guarantee it's going to end up with someone who wants it for breeding which tucks the problem away for another breeder to deal with by producing what must effectively be considered poss het blind/poss het one eyed snakes!

But then things like this are exactly why (assuming you care about quality when it comes to your breeding animals and pets) buying from a trusted source should always be a higher priority than finding x animal/morph as cheaply as possible.

Good little on-topic-ish point that, the whole one eyed thing is quite common and must be considered one of the flaws that breeders should definately try not to encourage!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

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I think a responsible breeder would not sell them. Or, if they do sell them, they know who they are selling them to, and for what purposes... ie, they sell them as pets ONLY, and NOT for profit. A good breeder is going to take a little time with their customers, anyway, so putting a little extra effort into making sure a snake gets a good, stable home shouldn't be that big a deal.

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Originally Posted by mason

Please donj't twist my words. MY definition of a flaw is something that makes a royal unable to act in it's normal manner or obvious things like deformity.

Your argument about morphs is rediculous, for starters royals will, in the wild, spend 80-90%+ of their time underground. How exactly do you think these morphs came to captivity? You think every single wild caught morph is a young hatchling? Well I can tell you there are WC ADULT, sub adult, yearling and hatchling morphs coming out of africa every year, MANY morphs first hit the scene as a WC adult. There was a good sized (8-900G WC albino male sold only this year in the UK. Fresh import. EVERY year you can aquire (if you have the contacts and the money) PLENTY of WC pastels, ghosts, basic co-doms and basic recessive morphs. They Can and do survive in the wild.

I'm not talking about natural selection, nor having the captivity/nature argument.

But to answer your question succinctly: No, I do not mean anything that would hamper it in the wild (not that I consider being a different colour a problem for this species!). I mean anything that means the ball python cannot behave like a royal python be that neurological or physical.

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Only part of my argument was directed at you, and yes I understand that morphs come from the wild and that most of them are adults, I was simply trying to understand what you mean by flaws.

And most of the combos and supers we have, were created by our breedings and have never existed in the wild because of the rare possibility of morphs to pair and copulate in the wild.

I honestly have yet to produce any deformities so I have no personal experience with culling any of my animals, but if and when something happens I am not going to perpetuate the deformities in our hobby, it will be in my freezer.

ij ustread five pages of posting and all i have to say is =I agree but qre you saying that Goober should have been culled? :(

It is my first year breeding ball pythons and I'm guessing my issue with my hatchling contributed to your need to post this thread. So I feel I need to respond.

I fully agree that once it is obvious an animal is suffering, humanely euthanizing it is the best thing for it. This is true for severely deformed animals that have no chance of living a comfortable life.

Now, in the case of my hatchling, Rubiix, he has shown he has a will to live and I was told not to give up until it was obvious there was no saving him. Today I'm taking him to be fed by a pinky pump. He will also be tube fed. If it becomes obvious that he can't move food into his stomach or at the end of 1-2 weeks he hasn't gained any weight back, I will take him to the vet to be humanely euthanized. (I will not put a live animal in a freezer. This is my own belief and opinion, please do not tell me to do otherwise). I made the choice to breed my snakes and I am responsible for the hatchlings in every way, including ending their suffering if need be. For now, I'm still going to give him a last chance. Maybe I'm just one of those nature lovers that finds a miracle in every breath of life and this little hatchling is a miracle to me. I owe it to him to make every effort to help him survive and I also owe it to him to let him go if he decides he doesn't want to fight anymore. Some of you may say, he's just a snake, but to me, he's the first snake I ever hatched out. He's special to me and I am very attached to him.