I just love 800g females!

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Originally Posted by Gary Orner

I have seen WC gravids come into this county at around 1200 grams. That is right before they are going to lay. So what does this mean. It probably bred around 800 grams.

There are some 1500 to 2500 gram females. BUT REMEMBER they are gravid that is not their true wieght. But you see a lot of 1100 to 1300 gravids. That means these snakes are breeding at or around 800 to 900 grams.

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Gary, could you please expound on your explaination here. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but it sounds as if you are saying that females gain weight when they become gravid. My females stop eating, and typically lose a bit of weight before they ovulate. Now they definitely weigh less after laying a mass of eggs, but I consider their true weight to be their prime breeding weight.

Thanks,

Just to add something that hasn't been touched on, or maybe I missed it...

Another thing to consider is clutch size. It has been shown by Jas and other breeders that ball pythons can breed smaller than what has been the "industry standard" for the past number of years, but I don't think there's any questioning that these smaller females spit out much smaller clutches than the bigger girls...is that the general outcome that you guys have?

I think that some data on the female's size vs the # of eggs and weight of hatchlings would be the most useful information for someone deciding whether they should breed their females at a certain size.

I think that the general trend of things is that the larger your female is, the larger number of eggs you get and the hatchlings are larger out of the egg.

So there's really no reason to debate whether or not ball pythons CAN breed smaller...it has been shown that they absolutely can, and can be done without any added health risks - the real discussion here is whether or not you should - and that depends a lot on the individual breeder, the stock they are working with, and what they want to produce.

If I were someone working with a recessive or double recessive project...I'd want the largest female possible laying the largest number of eggs for obvious reasons...

Yes a female that will not eat but a few months out of the year and will not get bigger than 800 Grams and lays 3 Egg clutches to me is not good genetics to be passed on.
I would not want a Mojave female that that laid 3 eggs a year because she is 800 grams and will not feed good enough to get bigger and how many years will it even take to get her there.How long would have to breed this girl to make a super or even a double trait if I take a 3 egg go at it every year.
Yes this girl is a normal but anything that is breed to her is going to have a chance to be a bad feeder that could take a long time to get to breeding weight and would take even longer if the breeding weight was 1200 to 1500 grams.
I personally would not want to take a chance to sell someone or even produce bad feeding animals.
I do not own a dwarf retic but I am sure they eat more than 2 months a year and give more than 3 or 4 eggs a year. So no I will not tell the retic people anything.

WC animals do not have the feeding of what a captive does. We feed weekly some feed every 3 to 5 days. These animals that are coming in and laying did not wiegh that much before breeding.

I also see a lot of over wieght ball pythons when people are selling "breedable" ball pythons.


Another way to look at it is the females that are sent as p[ossible gravids. They wiegh around say 1000 grams and before they lay around 1150 to 1200.......................................

Okay- I'll throw my perspective into the ring and see what comes of it... Jas, you're a butt-head :8: and I mean that lovingly. With the title of your post, it appears that you wanted to stir it up; and you have~ and this is good. :bow: I appreciate those who think and act outside of the prescribed norm to experiment with what works for them and what does not. I also appreciate that John has been at this for some time and so is being responsible within his experiments and procedures. What I think is counterproductive to your argument, John, is when you become angry and threaten to not share or post about breeding any more because of the responses you receive from some others; certainly you must have anticipated some of these responses based on the general proscription of breeding prior to 1500g and their third winter...?:weirdface Anyway, that said, I really appreciate you sharing what is working for you and what isn't working. Thank you :gj: :D

As for some of the other responses that, insofar as I read them, are just wanting to discredit John and his methods with this snake, I say "Humbug to you" :mad: I am a strong proponent of knowledge and education and colleague respect and some members of this forum are, in my opinion, forgetting that opinion and personal breeding methodology has nothing to do with a totalitarian regime for breeding ball pythons!! :salute:

It seems to me that some people are very very invested in their opinions of what works and what does not work and so therefore their way is the only way and anger and snottiness ensues if any other way is shared. I don't get it :(

To John I say: Thanks for sharing and for pushing the envelope of education. To some members I say: Thanks for encouraging John's clarity and continued involvement in this discussion. To other members I say: Be open to learning other ways of doing things. Jas isn't trying to change anyone's breeding methods; he's just sharing his own (and yes, stirring the pot! ;) )

Well, that's it. Thanks for my time on the soap box!!

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Originally Posted by Harold

Yes a female that will not eat but a few months out of the year and will not get bigger than 800 Grams and lays 3 Egg clutches to me is not good genetics to be passed on.
I would not want a Mojave female that that laid 3 eggs a year because she is 800 grams and will not feed good enough to get bigger and how many years will it even take to get her there.How long would have to breed this girl to make a super or even a double trait if I take a 3 egg go at it every year.
Yes this girl is a normal but anything that is breed to her is going to have a chance to be a bad feeder that could take a long time to get to breeding weight and would take even longer if the breeding weight was 1200 to 1500 grams.
I personally would not want to take a chance to sell someone or even produce bad feeding animals.
I do not own a dwarf retic but I am sure they eat more than 2 months a year and give more than 3 or 4 eggs a year. So no I will not tell the retic people anything.

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Harold,
First off, what would you recommend doing with the above stated Mojave female. I am not insuating anything, just asking.

Also, I never stated that a Dwarf Retic will lay 3 or 4 eggs, but they do tend to lay clutches about half the size of a "standard" retic (and a 3 egg clutch in a ball python is about half the norm). I am not stating that John has a dwarf Ball, but just looking from a differnet angle.

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Originally Posted by Gary Orner

WC animals do not have the feeding of what a captive does. We feed weekly some feed every 3 to 5 days. These animals that are coming in and laying did not wiegh that much before breeding.

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The bold statement above is what I am trying to figure out. If they didn't weigh that much before breeding, where did the weight come from? (The process does not create weight. The eggs are developed from fat stores that are already in the female.)

wow, some people are soo rediculous!

Jas.....do what you do. I want to see more 800 grammers!

Print these comments and use them as TP

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

wow, some people are soo rediculous!

Jas.....do what you do. I want to see more 800 grammers!

Print these comments and use them as TP

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Nooooo dude, not mine!!!?!?!?!!!! :O

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

wow, some people are soo rediculous!

Jas.....do what you do. I want to see more 800 grammers!

Print these comments and use them as TP

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Why even post a comment like this? It seems everything is calming down then you post this :confused:.Are you trying to stir the pot back up? If anything you could have pm John this and left it at that ;).I wrote John a few pm instead of posting here :P