i have a predisposition to never want any spiders or morphs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlditmars

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

---

This is a very good argument. I know stopping at combos with multiple wobbly genes is kind of arbitrary but this is my logic for using that as a stopping point.

I've heard spider is the gene with the worst wobble (that could be wrong) but I've seen plenty of spiders that seem to be fine (of course we can't know for sure as you stated). To me it doesn't make sense how two genes that both cause wobble couldn't make it worse (unless they cancel it out entirely). Regardless of whether it's an additive effect or a multiplicative effect it's just not something I want to do. The animal might seem completely fine and appear to thrive but it seems immoral to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlditmars

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

---

No-one is going to grab pitch forks, LOL !!

This is a discussion forum, and discussing is what we do ;) We all have opinions and they don't have to be the same.

That said, I really do not think that is comparable. There are PLENTY of spider morphs who aren't nice and sweet. There are plenty of other morphs that are. I don't think temperament plays into it. I like my Bumble bee because she IS a wonderful snake, not because she is a spider. She isn't sweet because she is a spider.

Also, every time when you breed for one certain trait only, and in this case it is a aberration of the "normal" genetics, then you can and usually will run into problems. Heavily in-breeding a genetic abnormality comes with a price. Perhaps they aren't all as visible as a wobble. But they are there. There are a few morphs that display problems. No-one would breed people together to create funky "colors" and traits either. For all you know, the morphs YOU like are actually "autistic", you wouldn't know, would you? They don't have to display a wobble to have issues such as that. And once you knew about it, what would you do? There can be many issues that are there, but the snakes still eat, poop, move and appear fine, because Ball Pythons don't do much to begin with. Not all issues present neurotic, fatal or severe. Those are the only ones we notice, though.

I do know people that are purist and find the entire morph breeding abhorrent for those reasons. They will only consider "normals". And I respect that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DreDeuce

I agree with the original post , even before some of you shed light on the situation . I just can't see myself having a snake with that disability. And to me , just an opinion, the morph pattern isn't all that great, to have to watch one wobble like that. The only way I could see myself owning a "Spider" is if it was a rescue, and fell into my lap, because someone was neglecting it. . . I come to a great disappointment when i realized that 2 of the morphs that I really had my eyes on, contained Spider genes. :( Killer Clown and Bumblebee. . . Why why why?

---

I already corrected you once, Killer clown does NOT have the spider morph in it! It is super pastel and clown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlditmars

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

---

it all comes down to what we as either keepers or breeders feel for the snakes. I can certainly understand the abstaining from using spider in any projects at all.

I however do have a beautiful mojo spider male with, as far as I can tell physically, almost no wobble. He will on occasion flip just his head over if he misses a strike, but other than that he acts perfectly normal. I do plan on using him in a few projects coming up, but if he produces any offspring with even a moderately more noticeable wobble I will abstain from using him any more.

I wish there was a way to tell if the snakes are in any kind of distress even if they don't show any physical signs. Mine eats like a champ on live only right now, and sheds perfect every time so he must be feeling ok haha, but again neither I or anyone else can truly know how they feel.

Honestly, I love the look of spiders and maybe it sounds selfish, but I hope to get one someday. IMHO as long as the animal functions fine, doesn't have any serious health defects, and lives as long as its counterparts, I don't see much problem with the wobble. On the other hand, it could be only a symptom of deeper mental issues so I would definitely do more research before purchasing. Also, I was not aware that Killer Clowns were predisposed to the wobble. Is this true?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FlynnTheBP

Also, I was not aware that Killer Clowns were predisposed to the wobble. Is this true?

---

No. Not in the least bit. The person who posted that thought that Killer Clown was a Spider combo, which is just plain wrong. That statement has been corrected multiple times in this thread as well as another on this forum since then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

No. Not in the least bit. The person who posted that thought that Killer Clown was a Spider combo, which is just plain wrong. That statement has been corrected multiple times in this thread as well as another on this forum since then.

---

I just saw the correction post after I posted. Thank you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

They are either found in the wild or they pop up randomly in people's collections. They are not "created" by people - they are discovered and then proven.

The Pastel story (from Kevin McCurley's book, The Complete Ball Python: A Comprehensive Guide to Care, Breeding, and Genetic Mutations):

---

Books ordered from the amazon (bean farm) absolutely cannot wait until it gets here :))
Sorry just had to share lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BBotteron

Books ordered from the amazon (bean farm) absolutely cannot wait until it gets here :))
Sorry just had to share lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

If you're looking for good books, Pythons of the World, Vol. II: BALL PYTHONS by David & Tracy Barker is another one I highly recommend.

I think I seen that on there as well and was about to go to google and get info on it
Woh...not off this site I'm not haha had to zoom in to see if I was seeing the decimal place was in the correct place
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1ce70958a7.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk