If it's ok to...

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

What does cull mean?

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Also see Charlottes Web. It is a story about a pig who was going to be culled, only to be given to the farmers neice who raised him up. Then he was going to become bacon when a....wait for it......wait for it....Spider saved his life.

I say this because it involved culling and a Spider.

Which is what we are talking about...right....Spiders?

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Originally Posted by ericzerka24

I've never seen a spider without a wobble. I'm sure there could be some out there but from my own experience, they all have it. My bumblebee that I got a few months ago only does it when he goes to feed. Its almost like he gets all excited and starts shaking. He is very healthy and my best feeder by far!

I know there are some very serious cases of the wobble but then again, there are also retarted people born every now and again as well. Should we stop people from breeding too so we don't have to worry about another mentally challanged person born again? Come on, get real....

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Well to be fair that is not an exact analogy. Now if you were to talk about stopping the mentally challenged person from reproducing then that would fit.

But if the said mentally challenged person looked like oh say Jessica Simpson then just put some corks on her forks and breed baby breed.....

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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Originally Posted by mozbink

well to be fair that is not an exact analogy. Now if you were to talk about stopping the mentally challenged person from reproducing then that would fit.

But if the said mentally challenged person looked like oh say jessica simpson then just put some corks on her forks and breed baby breed.....

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lol!

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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The word 'cull' is used in the natural sciences, and is a more appropriate word to use in this case, as it carries with it connotations of removing an animal from a gene pool based on undesirable genetic traits or defects. Like euthanasia, culling almost always implies putting the animal down as a means of doing so. It doesn't add ambiguity at all, in fact, it gives us additional information.

Cheers,
-Matt

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Originally Posted by mozbink

Well to be fair that is not an exact analogy. Now if you were to talk about stopping the mentally challenged person from reproducing then that would fit.

But if the said mentally challenged person looked like oh say Jessica Simpson then just put some corks on her forks and breed baby breed.....

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Exactly! lol

So... I'm new here and can't say I know a lot about breeding Ball Pythons, but I know about breeding ethics especially with dogs (German Shepherds in particular.)

While I may be biased, I think spiders are an amazing morph of ball python (I currently only own one BP and it is a spider.) I understand that spiders are notorious for having a wobble to some degree, I also understand that in the VAST majority of spiders, this wobble does not affect the quality of life in the animal in any way.

Now I'm not saying that it should just be overlooked, but I think that the spider morph is one that is important enough (to the creation of other morphs) and beautiful enough on its own to be valued by the BP community. I simply do not see the point in bashing those who choose to breed the morph to the point of demonizing these people.

German Shepherds were brought up in an earlier post as having hip displasia and then someone else remarked that the dogs with the 'hip displasia gene' were not bred. This is simply not true, not because there are irresponsible breeders breeding animals with hip displasia, but because they don't know exactly what causes it. While they try to place dogs together with healthy hips, it does not always result in puppies with healthy hips and vice versa.

Hip displasia would be much less common by now if they knew how to prevent it. HOWEVER, instead of giving up cold turkey on breeds with a high incidence of hip displasia (which is most large breeds) there are many breeders that for the love of their breed are working hard to make improvements. It is also a disease that has varying levels of severity, some dogs may have near perfect hips (I've yet to see PERFECT X-rays but I suppose it is subjective) while some dogs are so crippled by displasia that they can not walk.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, instead of being so negative about the morph maybe try to appreciate the amazing things that have come out of it and be hopeful for its future. I imagine any responsible breeder is working towards breeding healthy spiders with as little 'wobble' as possible. This is something I can appreciate and I think other BP lovers should try to appreciate as well.

I respect the breeders that are trying to improve the spider morphs and I don't think they should feel guilty about working with them. The same applies to those that work with caramels and any other morph with known issues. But I do believe that those who do work with these morphs should hold a higher level of responsibility to ensure that they are doing what they can to produce healthy disease-free animals (or as close to as they can get.) And I hope that there are breeders that are passionate enough about these morphs and hopefully some day we will see wobble free spiders and kink free caramels.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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Seriously? No wait......seriously??????????

No - culling adds more clarity. Now you're just being insulting.

Google really is your friend if you're unsure of a term being used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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Originally Posted by Matt K

The word 'cull' is used in the natural sciences, and is a more appropriate word to use in this case, as it carries with it connotations of removing an animal from a gene pool based on undesirable genetic traits or defects. Like euthanasia, culling almost always implies putting the animal down as a means of doing so. It doesn't add ambiguity at all, in fact, it gives us additional information.

Cheers,
-Matt

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thank you for the explanation, that is exactly the reason i didn't use the word euthanize. I used cull, because I meant cull. There are a lot of similar words with subtle differences, they're all important to the English language. I generally type out my replies very carefully to threads that are asking hard or legitimate questions. My replies are generally long. If i say a specific word, 99% of the time i mean that specific word.

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Originally Posted by sungmina

So... I'm new here and can't say I know a lot about breeding Ball Pythons, but I know about breeding ethics especially with dogs (German Shepherds in particular.)

While I may be biased, I think spiders are an amazing morph of ball python (I currently only own one BP and it is a spider.) I understand that spiders are notorious for having a wobble to some degree, I also understand that in the VAST majority of spiders, this wobble does not affect the quality of life in the animal in any way.

Now I'm not saying that it should just be overlooked, but I think that the spider morph is one that is important enough (to the creation of other morphs) and beautiful enough on its own to be valued by the BP community. I simply do not see the point in bashing those who choose to breed the morph to the point of demonizing these people.

German Shepherds were brought up in an earlier post as having hip displasia and then someone else remarked that the dogs with the 'hip displasia gene' were not bred. This is simply not true, not because there are irresponsible breeders breeding animals with hip displasia, but because they don't know exactly what causes it. While they try to place dogs together with healthy hips, it does not always result in puppies with healthy hips and vice versa.

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There may be an enviromental factor that coincides with a genetic pre-disposition that can agrevate the underlying genetic disease. There are two enviromental factors that have in the past been considered a contributor to causing the disease to progress. Overfeeding and allowing the use of stairs when the animals are still growing. The latter usually was only a factor in large breeds like Mastiffs.

All effort should be taken to avoid breeding animals who are known to have the issue since you cannot say for sure how much of it was caused by poor genetics and how much was caused by enviroment. Sometimes this cannot be avoided as dogs may not show the disease until after they have already had offspring. So in some sense it is not entirely avoidable. But one should try.

I do not have a problem with people breeding spyders. I accept the testimony of those who have when they say the snake does not suffer for it.

However....

Do we know that there are no long term, linked affects of snakes that have the wobble? Could some other disease manifest itself that would affect the snakes longevity? How long before we know the long term affects of this genetic defect? Can we make any definitive conclusions without studying the snakes for their entire life cycle?

Do we even know what the wobble is? Is it neurological? Is it a muscle defect? Combo of both?