Breeding normals?

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

wow I am starting to notice a lot of stuff that I didn't want to notice. It's almost like a lot of people on here act as if normals are worthless. These are living creatures we are talking about. I don't care if its a $40 normal from a snake show or a $800 albino, I would love and take care of it as if it was priceless.

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Value is entirely subjective. My normal ball python is worthless to others but priceless to me.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

It's like a small percent of people forgot what its all truely about. It makes me sad just reading some of the stuff in this thread and some opinions. These are living animals. How would some of you guys like it no one wanted you just because you were a $40 "normal human" and everyone was crazy about that "$800 female albino human" or whatever? Its wrong , really is.

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I find this hysterical. This is exactly how life for humans works. No one wants me because I am a normal human. I was very lucky to find someone who saw my value and now takes care of me. Everyone is crazy for the morph humans. We call them attractive people or in the extreme celebrities. It may be wrong but its reality. I choose to accept it and move on.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

Original Poster, I can't beleive you would even suggest that people stop breeding normal to normal.... I don't even have words to describe how ridiculous that was to see.

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It makes total sense to me an many others. If you want to breed a normal to a normal that is your business. I believe that the OP was talking about breeders or people who are doing it to sell the offspring. This is a very valid question.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

To be honest, if it wernt for normals I am going to guess that about 75% of us wouldnt even be into ball pythons.

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I believe the albino BP started the craze. If you are referring to the fact that the normal ball python is the source of all mutations then if not for them 100% of us wouldn't be into ball pythons. I for one am quite fond of the normal type but I would dare say they did not start the craze.

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Originally Posted by PurplePython

Give me any BP, normal or pastel or albino or spider, i dont give a hoot . As long as I make that bond with it, it dosnt matter. I wouldn't give up my BP for anything in the world. It's like a part of my family now.

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Bond is a very strong word to use when referring to a reptile. Attachment is much more likely. I love my BP dearly but would give it up for many many things. I would save my cats first for instance, my girlfriend before that. If it came down to my car or my snake. You can have my snake. As much as I would like to stand by my earlier statement that my BP is priceless to me, I can't. It has a worth. I would be hard pressed to put a number on that worth but I can tell you that its less than $8,000 dollars and more than $100.

Heavy thread...

We can't stop idiots who won't take care of their pet.
We can't stop normals being available aside from legally licensing who can sell them (possible good idea, but would disenfranchise many such as myself). Importers and other people will still do what you don't want them to do. A ban would only fuel a black market as it does with everything.
I was shocked by the very idea of stopping breeding normals just because idiots don't take care of them. Make it a normal or anything else, if they'll treat any living creature like that, you can bet they'll do the same to another. Remember, most people hate these animals. True, spiteful, horrible hate.
Normals (and any other morph) should be bred for desirable qualities as well as appearance.

I don't know. This is like the people who kill cats and dogs because they think there're too many of them. There are too many people. Shall we start killing them? Their overpopulation issue threatens us in a far greater way. Or just spay and neuter? Or just leave it to nature to sort out? Again, it could be solved if people in general were less idiotic.

I guess I should ask, "Why NOT breed normals?" Aside from just not wanting to produce them, why shouldn't they be bred in general?

OP, you've picked up on a lot of problems with the bp industry, the pet industry, education, and humanity in general. But, normal ball pythons are NOT the cause for these problems, and their absence would not be the solution. These problems all have their own complicated roots and various possible solutions, which are all outside the scope of this thread, this forum, this community, this industry, and any group that isn't the majority of a majority of the countries of the world.

Don't make normal ball pythons a poor scapegoat for what's wrong with humanity. Please.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Heavy thread...

We can't stop idiots who won't take care of their pet.
We can't stop normals being available aside from legally licensing who can sell them (possible good idea, but would disenfranchise many such as myself). Importers and other people will still do what you don't want them to do. A ban would only fuel a black market as it does with everything.
I was shocked by the very idea of stopping breeding normals just because idiots don't take care of them. Make it a normal or anything else, if they'll treat any living creature like that, you can bet they'll do the same to another. Remember, most people hate these animals. True, spiteful, horrible hate.
Normals (and any other morph) should be bred for desirable qualities as well as appearance.

I don't know. This is like the people who kill cats and dogs because they think there're too many of them. There are too many people. Shall we start killing them? Their overpopulation issue threatens us in a far greater way. Or just spay and neuter? Or just leave it to nature to sort out? Again, it could be solved if people in general were less idiotic.

I guess I should ask, "Why NOT breed normals?" Aside from just not wanting to produce them, why shouldn't they be bred in general?

OP, you've picked up on a lot of problems with the bp industry, the pet industry, education, and humanity in general. But, normal ball pythons are NOT the cause for these problems, and their absence would not be the solution. These problems all have their own complicated roots and various possible solutions, which are all outside the scope of this thread, this forum, this community, this industry, and any group that isn't the majority of a majority of the countries of the world.

Don't make normal ball pythons a poor scapegoat for what's wrong with humanity. Please.

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All ugly people should be fixed!!! No more ugly people! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Heavy thread...

We can't stop idiots who won't take care of their pet.
We can't stop normals being available aside from legally licensing who can sell them (possible good idea, but would disenfranchise many such as myself). Importers and other people will still do what you don't want them to do. A ban would only fuel a black market as it does with everything.
I was shocked by the very idea of stopping breeding normals just because idiots don't take care of them. Make it a normal or anything else, if they'll treat any living creature like that, you can bet they'll do the same to another. Remember, most people hate these animals. True, spiteful, horrible hate.
Normals (and any other morph) should be bred for desirable qualities as well as appearance.

I don't know. This is like the people who kill cats and dogs because they think there're too many of them. There are too many people. Shall we start killing them? Their overpopulation issue threatens us in a far greater way. Or just spay and neuter? Or just leave it to nature to sort out? Again, it could be solved if people in general were less idiotic.

I guess I should ask, "Why NOT breed normals?" Aside from just not wanting to produce them, why shouldn't they be bred in general?

OP, you've picked up on a lot of problems with the bp industry, the pet industry, education, and humanity in general. But, normal ball pythons are NOT the cause for these problems, and their absence would not be the solution. These problems all have their own complicated roots and various possible solutions, which are all outside the scope of this thread, this forum, this community, this industry, and any group that isn't the majority of a majority of the countries of the world.

Don't make normal ball pythons a poor scapegoat for what's wrong with humanity. Please.

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Sorry to be harsh but I think you are missing the point. As humans we can't save the world from all the bad things. You are 100% right about that. What we can do is try and cause the least harm. If you are going to breed Ball Pythons you are going to produce normals. A pastel bread to a pastel will produce 25% normals for instance. When you go to sell those normals you have to compete with wild caught or captive hatched normals that are legally brought into the country. This forces you to sell the normals at a very low price. The low price makes them easier to buy on a whim. When people buy pets on a whim they often later regret that decision and put them on craigslist or worse let the go into the wild. These types of actions give the rest of us a bad name. If you, as a BP lover say, "I will never breed a normal to a normal," (not talking about dinker projects of course) then you are making a commitment to not making the problems we face worse. Again its not about making a commitment to not produce normals. Its about not pairing animals that will ONLY produce normals. Or at least thats one side of the argument. Its just simple math that ON AVERAGE, animals that cost more are better cared for. This is because most people will think harder before buying and when someone does go out and buy an expensive animal that they later regret, there are many people waiting in line to take over that responsibility. To put it simply. How many times do we see normal BP on craigslist for a 100 dollar rehoming fee. Most of us don't give too much thought to saving these BP's. Those same people might jump to adopt a super pastel BP with a 100 dollar rehoming fee.

idk what pet stores you are going to, but here in PA pet stores sell normal BP's for $100 and up, I saw a 350g male albino on sale for $750!

You could take this debate and use it for any part of animal breeding, dogs for example...people are breeding dogs for a profit when there are hundreds of thousands of dogs in shelters being put down/without a home..we have no need to keep breeding these animals when so many are in need of help.

Just my opinion

Normals aren't the problem! Normal ball pythons aren't the only animal being treated this way. If it wasn't normals, the idiots would be mistreating some other morph or animal. Lessening the normal population just puts another in their place.

What is HSUS saying about us? You're using the same argument, and it's not a very good one. They're trying to outlaw our pets because some people don't take care of theirs. Recently, in the Steubenville, OH area near me, there was a horribly abused dog found. It was horrible and the entire community is pissed at whoever did this to that poor animal. But does anyone thinks dogs shouldn't be kept as pets because of this? No! There's no reason for that. The millions of people nationwide who take excellent care of their dogs outweigh the bastards who don't. Same with our pets. The PETS aren't the problem.

I for one will never sell to anyone who hasn't proven to me that they know at least the basics of how to take care of them. They'll also get a recommendation for this site. That's no matter what kind of ball I sell them.

Also, the import market will be there no matter what. There's nothing you can do about pet store impulse buy ball pythons, so why even compete with them? Don't sell to those people. Sell to informed buyers if you really care about the welfare of the pet.

Also people who pay more for the animal are likely to have a good reason to do so. They are probably already educated about the animal and understand why the animal is worth what it is.

We're on common ground at this point. But breeding normals isn't the problem, it's selling them to the petstores and competing with imports and putting them in the reach of the idiots. As I said, I'll sell wholesale directly to well-informed and prepared customers. (Idea courteous of cooliotiffany, I think.)

Its not what you breed.

Its what you do with what you breed.

Brandon

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Originally Posted by BrandonsBalls

Its not what you breed.

Its what you do with what you breed.

Brandon

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I like that. :)

My first reptile pets came from pet stores. If it weren't for that, perhaps I would have NEVER developed an interest in keeping reptiles.

The key is education, not keeping animals out of the hands of public. That's HSUS's argument again--that the average person is simply too stupid to take care of a pet reptile properly. I don't believe that.

I do think the industry needs to police itself better. There shouldn't BE pet stores that don't know how to care for the animals they are selling. It should be required that the owners and workers know basic care information for the species they sell. That is the only way they can be expected to pass it on to a consumer--a consumer who may be entirely innocent, and believe they HAVE gotten the right information, because the pet store worker said so.

We can spend all day saying they should have bought a book--but they didn't know they needed one. They thought they were given what they needed to know when they bought the animal.

Prevent THAT from happening, and you would prevent far more than half of the problems with improper care happening out there.

The world needs normal morphs. Its a great starter pet and not everyone wanting a ball python can afford a couple hundred dollars that some of even the single genes go for. There are ppl who do really like the normal pattern. Take the Burmese for example I actually prefer the normal over al the morphs except maybe the hypo. And for those who breed morphs, they need those hobbyists who just breed normals, if normals numbers were fewer, we would also see a sharp drop in the going rate of morphs. Those pets on craigslist are there due to irresponsible pet owners, that simple. Not because they were normals.