Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

there is many different things lowering prices right now some we have not seen before times got tough and others have been going on.
the bottom line is this price your animals at what you want to. if they are not selling at all or you dont have any replies then either your charging too much, your advertising not enough, or your just not got enough feedback to warrant someone to purchase from you.

the quality doesnt mean much when your not selling anything and youve been caring for multiple clutches for months and months on end. everyone cannot keep every animal they produce and saying that you can is total crap! the last time i checked there is not alot of ppl in this business that have that much disposable income. also what some fail to bring up that every animal in every clutch will not be the same. not only that but just because an individual animal looks better or worse does not mean it will produce ugly babies more or less than the other. also your not the one dictating whats quality and what is not! the buyer dictates that period!

for those of you that are not selling and just buying pay what you want to pay for the individual animal every snake is not the same period! ive seen way too many ppl just buy a snake because its a mojave and not because its the mojave they cannot live without. right now this is a buyers market!

when i got into this you could not hardly find nice looking animals for any money pretty much most of the things for sale is the animals that ppl do not want to keep for themselves.. right now your your starting to see a little better looking animals because all this time everyone has held back everything nice they could afford to hold back. sure there is still not so nice looking animals out there still being produced and there always will be, but still not much has changed many ppl are still holding back alot. too often i hear "im not giving away a female" and you hear that because if they keep the same price eventually when it gets bigger it will sell or they can afford to keep it. this is also why we are seeing alot less morph females for sale also, but soon that will change also then stuff will drop again.

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Originally Posted by nixer

there is many different things lowering prices right now some we have not seen before times got tough and others have been going on.
the bottom line is this price your animals at what you want to. if they are not selling at all or you dont have any replies then either your charging too much, your advertising not enough, or your just not got enough feedback to warrant someone to purchase from you.

the quality doesnt mean much when your not selling anything and youve been caring for multiple clutches for months and months on end. everyone cannot keep every animal they produce and saying that you can is total crap! the last time i checked there is not alot of ppl in this business that have that much disposable income. also what some fail to bring up that every animal in every clutch will not be the same. not only that but just because an individual animal looks better or worse does not mean it will produce ugly babies more or less than the other. also your not the one dictating whats quality and what is not! the buyer dictates that period!

for those of you that are not selling and just buying pay what you want to pay for the individual animal every snake is not the same period! ive seen way too many ppl just buy a snake because its a mojave and not because its the mojave they cannot live without. right now this is a buyers market!

when i got into this you could not hardly find nice looking animals for any money pretty much most of the things for sale is the animals that ppl do not want to keep for themselves.. right now your your starting to see a little better looking animals because all this time everyone has held back everything nice they could afford to hold back. sure there is still not so nice looking animals out there still being produced and there always will be, but still not much has changed many ppl are still holding back alot. too often i hear "im not giving away a female" and you hear that because if they keep the same price eventually when it gets bigger it will sell or they can afford to keep it. this is also why we are seeing alot less morph females for sale also, but soon that will change also then stuff will drop again.

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Ya what he said :)

Great thread with many valid points/arguments/perceptions. :)

Many things are indeed different these days. One thing is the same as it has always been. If you are seling an animal, you need to be prepared to keep it back or lower the price. Some 1 and 2 gene FEMALES are worth more to me as a breeder to raise than to sell at low retail or worse. :( I have held most of my girls back these season and last for that matter.

I have a couple NEW projects/combos that I have set the intitial price on. I did/could not use KS to price them -- even if I were so inclined. I took a look at similar/other existing/established codom-recessive projects -- measured my project visually and also considered the rarity of the componets to make the visual. Again, if I have valued animals higher than potential buyer does then I need to be prepared to hold it or lower the price tag. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Type B: The other kind of person is IMHO the majority. These are the rebellious under achievers who pretty much get into snakes because they are considered taboo, or not accepted by the main stream. They CRAVE attention. While their intentions may be good to start they almost always in the long run hold their own "cool points" at a much higher regard then the snakes health and future. Once the novelty or attention wares off, the snake is screwed.

There are so many Type B people that get a snake on a whim, then a week later because they are broke and generally unsuccessful in life, come up with the grand idea of breeding snakes to make a quick fortune. They are too lazy and / or stupid to do the math or the research necessary to figure out what all is entailed, and they just jump into it head first. They do this by spending every dime they have at the moment on one or two below average XXX ball pythons.

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Wow Thanks there Mike you just managed to insult more than half of our hobby (you even say in your opinion the majority) by calling them worthless losers. Just... wow. You have to realize with the hobby as it stands WE type B people have the same captivating dreams as you (I'm assuming by your tone you consider yourself in the type A plan) type A's. Not necessarily for the cash but we have our creative urges too, and often much better intentions. When I go to a reptile show and watch who's getting into morphs it's a heck of a lot more type B losers than snobs.

The only reason there is any demand for morphs is because BOTH "type A" and "type B" people both imagine what they can do, and take a big step and make the investment torwards a positive future. Do you breed and sell your animals? Because the tone in just those two paragraphs is like Sam Walton of Walmart hopping on the intercom at one of his stores and calling their customers a bunch of "retards". The snakes aren't just to be cool, as you'd like to insult a lot of the fringe with the stigma, but the fact that the animals are just that cool.

I guarantee many of the type B's (myself included) spend alot more time actually handling the animals and appreciating them as more for their coolness than as an investment, and I'd consider the actual social quality of those animals more worth my attention and my share of the market than even a prettier morph from someone who's snakes are terrified of people because they were a product made not out of facination but rather as an income (we've all seen you tube video's showing and that personality is shared by the majority of animals produced in mass production.) How many reputable breeders let their animals out of their cubicles to excersize and explore should they desire to? I sure as heck wouldn't pay top dollar for a stunning example of say a lesser who just sat there like a piece of furniture (I'd download the picture and save 500 bucks) but I wouldn't mind buying a brown pastel who was curious and actually an entertaining pet.

As far as the recent argument comparing Balls to dogs, it's partially relevant but it's a way off considering the natures of both the animals and the consumers.

Dogs are harder to have multiples of for the average consumer, making selective breeding a bit more difficult. The person spending over a grand on a quality dog line is buying a pet (and more often than not status symbol). The average consumer of expensive dog morph isn't primarily in the market for that animal to make more of them or mix it with other genes to create new things.

Balls are easy to house in multiples (although caging and incidentals are the true goldmine in the reptile industry (even in larger degree than the rest of the pet industry). The majority of those into Ball Pythons seem to me to be more into the coolness of the animals than the status symbol involved (well at least us type B losers who are generally unsuccessful at life regardless of what some "type A" people would say). The consumer of royal morphs is 9 times out of 10 looking to produce more themselves creating an excess, and since balls don't exhaust themselves in their consumption (rather the opposite they multiply) the prices can only be expected to plummet. Now you could slow this effect by not selling males (quicker to breed and can create alot more stock quicker), or by culling all but the best to really improve the lines... but until neutering royals is as easy as it is with dogs you can't expect prices to stabilize to the point where profits on invested time/capital remain consistently high on the same morphs. How are prices going to stabilize when supply just keeps going up while demand just goes down? I may be lazy or stupid but even I understand that fallacy in economic thinking. After the big dog and second wave in morph producers make back their investment on new morphs housing and feeding breeders has such a low capital upkeep compared to the prices their clutches can go for even without single mutations being in the 500-1k price range (which I know many type A's would find astonishing with their general success in life but is often out of affordable range of the type B hobbyist which makes up a large share of the royal single-mutation market).

It is still easy to get an unusually high rate of return on capital investment in the ball industry if you are generally successful at life and understand the market and how to play it. That is why the market has so many players on so many levels. How much was made on the pinstripe craze? Even if they were now selling for 50 bucks those who knew the market and were there at the right time made a killing... same with many of the new morphs.

Those who are "lazy or stupid" :partyon: and can't figure out how to either fill a niche or create one in the market will be standing there wondering why they can't still pull in 500% a year or more on their initial investment but the ones who "make good decisions" will realize that mood rings and pet rocks just don't command the same prices any more. Either way those who love the hobby and the animals, and who strive to create quality and are in it for that creative aspect, will be happy regardless of the outcome as long as the hobby still exists.

Just remember the market for Balls is as big as it is because prices DO drop where the majority of those in the hobby, us Type B's, can actually afford to participate in it. You only get 2k for a pinstripe because people know they can turn that around and later sell them for 500 then (what now 300?) but they have more to breed so their investment still pays off (granted there is the niche in the market that just has to have the morphs for their own collections... the quintessential type A type, but that is as you say not the majority of the market for your "product".) It's not like Ball pythons wear out as fast as say designer clothing, once I have a pinstripe unless I am trying to breed en masse I'm not necessarily going to buy another at the same price.

I apologize for my rambling my boyfriend is already chuckling at me for it, but this sort of topic is a passionate topic since it's putting a price (and therefore exclusivity) on beauty. And it seems people are more concerned with their profits in it as an industry (even if it places others just as passionate in the hobby out of the runnings on working with the more beautiful pieces in this fabulous jigsaw) than the side of the hobby that the passionate hobbyist could (in alot of my type B mentality) be focusing on..... trying to spread the beauty... the best genes... the "quality" in the genetics to raise up the gene pool of the species as a whole. We as a collective passionate bunch have shaped the whole face of the ball python species. Being part of that experience means more to me than a dollar sign. Being the unsuccessful and lazy type B that I am if I manage to just break even at this hobby, and enjoy sharing the passion with others in the meantime even if it means selling the beautiful well adjusted animals I produce at low prices just to be able to move my extras, I consider it a great success.

And even if I disdain the capitalistic cancer that runs this world and am considered unsuccessful by many, I am part of a big niche in your market. I plan on creating beauty with what I can afford to work with, I plan on sharing that beauty. I appreciate a browned out pastel for the magnificent animal that shares this existance with me, not as a less valuable piece of property that ruins the "value" my more beautiful creations are "worth". I am not alone. I AM Joe Schmoe, and there are alot more like me. If you don't want to cater to me and my value as a consumer... providing the "product" I seek at a price I'm willing to pay for it... I ask that at least you don't go insulting me blaming me and those like me for hurting your success in this "industry".

Please do your research on who your consumer actually is before you call the majority of them idiots and blame them for hurting your enterprise. I would rather buy a "lesser quality" animal from someone I'm proud to share a hobby with rather than a smoking animal at a fantastic price from someone I wouldn't feel 100 % happy inviting to my dinner table. Most of the herpers I know are the same way... a little free market research for ya.

Sorry to run off the tracks on this thread, if it was in the business forum rather than (whichever forum it's in now I've been editing this so long I've forgotten!) forum I would have just ignored it. No offense meant to anyone consider it a market survey if you must! Although in a lot of industries talk of getting together as a collective and setting prices would be considered illegal :salute:.

Sorry to ramble, I apologize for boring you with a novel, with love peace and camaraderie for all who share my obsession ... Long live Joe Schmoe!

All the whining is pretty funny considering YOU are killing the market every time you breed. You are selling those babies for a high price to *gasp* another breeder. If there was such a market for them why is fauna full of bumped posts and dropping prices? You can't regulate the breeding so why expect to regulate prices?

You talk like a "hobby" breeder must not be doing it right, must have low quality animals or a poor setup which isn't neccessarily the case. I don't know any hobby that you make money off, if you are in it to make money, you are a business. I'm not making any money off my lone snake, but don't feel the need to breed him just because I've been paying out to feed and house him, that's what having a pet requires last time I checked. If you can't afford to feed and house what you are producing than you shouldn't be breeding period.

I also have spent thousands on my reef tanks but don't feel the need to frag out every "rare" coral every time it grows an inch to get my money back because I enjoy tanks and enjoy the hobby. But plenty do and there's the same arguments on every reefing forum about price drops and "quality". Some people feel special to pay 20x times the price to have a name on it and others like me could care less because it's the look I'm after, not who bred/named it.

a: Free Market

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Great thread with many valid points/arguments/perceptions. :)

Many things are indeed different these days. One thing is the same as it has always been. If you are seling an animal, you need to be prepared to keep it back or lower the price. Some 1 and 2 gene FEMALES are worth more to me as a breeder to raise than to sell at low retail or worse. :( I have held most of my girls back these season and last for that matter.

I have a couple NEW super cool and exciting projects/combos that I have set the intitial price on. I did/could not use KS to price them -- even if I were so inclined. I took a look at similar/other existing/established codom-recessive projects -- measured my project visually and also considered the rarity of the componets to make the visual. Again, if I have valued animals higher than potential buyer does then I need to be prepared to hold it or lower the price tag. :gj:

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i agree with you bill, but i think something needed to be added. look for the bold

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Originally Posted by nixer

i agree with you bill, but i think something needed to be added. look for the bold

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You are too kind nixer!! :bow: It always sounds a little sweeter when others go out of their way to embellish your project. :)

The Caramel Mojaves and the rest of the gang :snake::snake::snake: give a big "shout out"!!!!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

And I'm not willing to sell my Grade A's for C grade pricing. But I'm also not willing to produce more than I can comfortably keep for myself. If I sell my animals at my price - it's a win. If I keep my hot animals, it's still a win!

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i cant say that i blame you for not selling a's at c prices i wouldnt either, but others do this alot, that is part of the reason there is a thread like this one here.

I think anyone wanting to sell snakes should read this. Thanks for opening other peoples eyes.