New Balls

this needsto be posted outside this picture forum! let people know what has happened!:mad:

We have apologised to Allen numerous times, we both were at fault. I spoke with him earlier and offered to pay half of the vet bill, there is a lot more than just what gets posted. We prefer to take care of a problem like this over the phone as it is 1 on 1, not everyone on a forum. My concern is to fix things with him, not post all day on here.

We have sold a lot of animals and have not had a problem before, now that we have had one, we will make sure it does not happen again.

I would again like to apologize to Allen if I came accrossed as rude on here, I do not like dealing with forums, and a lot of stuff comes acrossed differently than it should. I feel horrible that the female died and another snake got infected. I hate it when ANY snake dies.

From now on we are going to treat all animals, not just imports for internal parasites as a safety with a safe effective wormer/panacure ( panacure is very safe).

As I have said we have had 100's of perfect transactions, and the 1 time when something goes wrong, we are the bad guys.
Good luck to you all with your breedings this year, this is the last time we are posting on here, as no matter what we say or do we cannot win.

ALAN----not ALLEN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

What do you want to know?? I'll post whatever info is helpful.

Alan

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Alan, as I said in my previous post, a simple straightforward timeline. When you got the snakes in, when any snake showed illness, when this female died, when these snakes were bred, any other relevent event, etc. I always like to see that sort of thing so the sequence of events doesn't get lost in the emotion of the events and the subsequent fall out.

I think what Josh at J&J said above covers it. I think for me and a lot of people we were just wanting to see him take some responsibility on his end. I think that Josh said what needed to be said and that should clear things up for most people although some people will always judge you about what happened here no matter what. I personally apologize to Josh if what I said was offensive to him. I think a lot of us got caught up in the moment and by only knowing what was posted made judgments accordingly. Both made mistakes. J&J is making a mends that is satisfactory to Alan, it seems, and that is all that matters at this point going forward. I think I speak for almost everyone when I say all of our hearts go out to Alan and hope that things work out for the best for him.

I got the animals on 2-1-08. I left them alone for about 1 week and a half. I went to feed them all and they all ate but the 1400g pastel and the big normal girl. I went another week and tried feeding again, everyone ate and I put a pre killed rat in with the big male pastel, and big female. The male ate the female didn't. I had already introduced the pastel on the 2nd week with the female, because of my wanting to get the snakes breeding. At the end of the 2nd week the female had diareha. It was a bad one all over the back of the tub. I took the male out and the next day I tried feeding again. Everyone ate but the big male and big female.
2 or 3 days later I put the pin in with her because the pastel didn't show any intrest. I left him in for 1 day, she had another bad bowel movement. That weekend I fed everyone. The pin, big pastel, and big female didnt eat. This is when the female started really going down. I could tell she was weak so I was going to take her to the vet on Last Wed. I was checking all the snakes and she was laying upside down, kinda like the pics people post of females after they've been bred. But when I open the tub she was gone. My daughter freaks out. I get her out and bury her in the woods behind my house. ( I should have had an necropsie sp?? done but didn't.)
So I called a few people that have alot more experience than I do and they said take the pastel and pin to the vet. I took them the next day. The vet tried to get poop out by probing but couldn't. She gave me panacur to treat the pin and big pastel just to be safe. So I waited a day or two and the pin pooped. I took the poop in and she tested it and said she found hookworm eggs in the fecal exam. I asked if she thought I should treat all the snakes I got from Josh, and she said yes. Her stance was if the one died and another has parasites then we don't know what else he might have. So I said ok, and now I'm treating all the snakes I got from Josh.
I'm not doing this to be vindictive or anything like that. I just don't want anyone else to be put in the situation I'm in right now. Josh says he's going to change his procedures for taking in and keeping snakes that might be problems. Thats cool I just hope he sticks to it and doesn't let the thoughts of a quick sell make him go back to the old ways.
Also I appreciate that Josh wants to pay half the vet bill. I know now, since I have a little more experience on what to look for in a breeder/seller. I'm going to be more picky when it comes time for me to buy snakes again. I won't go with the cheapest price out there. Because in all honesty thats what I did. I saw he had what I wanted and it was alot cheaper than anyone else at that time. People told me not to do that and shop around but I didn't listen. To those people I'm sorry I didn't take your advice. You better believe I will from now on. I'm still learning with all this but this experience has made me all the more wise. If you need anymore info on this just let me know. And again thanks to everyone for your support on this issue.

Thanks
Alan

Sorry about the way the post is sitting I was trying to indent but couldnt get the dang thing to do it. It indented the whole thing.....

Alan

I think this is very sad however my take here, is that you both share some responsibility the seller for selling a sick animal, and you for being in a rush and breeding an animal that has been in your care only for a short while, not even knowing if it was healthy or not.

My :2cent: If I was getting 1.1 from a breeder tomorrow and the female was ready to breed I would still not breed her to the snake that came with her, until I was certain that BOTH snakes were healthy and this cannot be determine within 1 week or 2.

why did you throw the Pinstripe in if you could see something wasn't right with her?

Thanks for that post, Alan, it really does help to get a better view of the sequence of events.

My response is from me, not as a Mod, nor a representative of staff, just my personal thoughts for what they are worth.

From what I've gotten from this thread this big female was a snake this vendor had just gotten in. They offered her to you as a freebie in this rather expensive package you bought. They seem to have fully disclosed to you that she hadn't been treated or fed or much of anything other than what her weight was.

After a week or so of ownership you put a male morph in with her and she had an explosive loose bowel movement. A few days later you introduced another male morph in with her and yet another loose bowel movement occurred. A fecal sample wasn't, as far as I've read here, taken from either of her bowel movements.

I guess my concerns for you Alan are that there was a rush to breed those expensive males to what amounted to an unknown female and for me, at my level of experience, that's a risk I wouldn't have taken. Personally I don't care what breeder tells me what - I'm not risking anything on the roll of the dice when it comes to quarantine. I'm so very sorry you lost this big female but I can't see where this vendor misled you on her. For me she would have been a "buyer beware" type snake at best.

As far as any other intestinal parasites in the other snakes in this collection - since there was direct exposure to feces from this female, I'm not sure how traceable anything is at this point. I'd have to depend on my own herp vet to give me some sort of reasonable timeline of development of the worms as far as whether it was from feces exposure from that female or a pre-existing condition from the vendor's collection.

I've never purchased from this vendor. Heck I wouldn't know them if I tripped over them in the street. I do know that anytime you buy, rescue or adopt a snake with basically no history, no health record, no idea of it's past husbandry - it's safer for you and for the snakes to overdo on quarantine and just take those extra months to make sure everyone's healthy.

Again, Allan, I'm not slamming you or the this seller or anything like that. I know what it's like to have a snake die so my heart goes out to you. I only posted my thoughts so perhaps in future you might consider going just that bit slower when it comes to purchasing and keeping these type of "mystery" snakes. For the seller, they might want to consider how fast they move out snakes and what sort of "buyer beware" statement goes along with that. Also what advice they are presenting to their customers about quarantine/breeding on these possibly more high risk animals. It does seem they've made a post in this thread that they will institute some new methods to address this particular issue and have offered to help with vet expenses.

I hope you and this seller can come to an agreement that suits both parties in what is naturally an emotionally charged situation.