Will They Miss Their Space?

14 inches may not sound like alot to you,

but when we were keeping my male in a tall tank, he would roam around on a tree (exactly like you have in your pics) and try to climb around the top of the tank. BUT he did fall numerous times. He would propel himself till he was barely holding anything, and fall HARD. He has landed on his water dish, his tree, his hides.

I worried about him hurting himself because the *thunk* was so loud, that I decided to not risk any climbing accidents and put him in a tub. He has settled down and is completely fine.
I personally wasn't going to allow him the chance to get hurt by moving him to a shallow or low enclosure.

Balls may be better climbers when they are young, but with my past experience, I won't allow mine that opportunity to climb like I did before.

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Originally Posted by MikeC1212

Argument? It was an exaggerated prediction. I never told anyone it was a good idea. I was making a statement of my belief.. which is BPs can and should live in something larger than a 12qt tub. Thanks for tuning in. Re-read if you have to.

Another belief: (not argument, let's straighten that out for the "haters") Just because a snake is terrestrial doesn't mean he's grounded from climbing. It means a majority of the time is spent on the ground, not all of it's time.

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Whats wrong with the word argument?

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

OK so why are you and I arguing bc I agreed with you haha? I admitt they are clumsy as babies but I honestly dont think theyd be hurt seriously falling from the top of a 14inch tub. If there was a good chance that would happen would i keep a 4k snake in there? no way in hell... but since it would take freak accident for that to happen... i guess im will to take the risk.

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Freak accidents do happen, as long as you're willing to accept the risk associated then I see no problems with you offering climbing objects.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=snake+died

Edit: Before someone points it out not trying to prove that climbing is fatal just that freak accidents occur.

Which is cool.. I see your concern... I guess I'm just not soo worried bc youd think if it hurt them to fall then they wouldnt do it? Either way only my babies do it... After 6 months or so theyre too big and cant fit on the lil handle ledge anymore and the falling stops... None of my older balls have fallen while climbing in their tubs so again my worries are very little... I say younger balls arent good climbers which is why they fall alot... their more fearless and curious about things which is why I let them explore... Everyone seems to think theyre "stressed, hungry or trying to escape" when really theyre just young curious snakes wanting to know whats on the other side of the tub...

In that post he said he assumes thats what happened based on what he found... Could have been something wrong with the snake that he never knew about... IF it actually did fall and somehow that caused its death like I said this is a freak accident just like someone being struck with lightning... can it happen? yea sure... just like I could win the lotto... is it likely?? prolly not... but in the great words of Loyd Christmas...

SO YOUR SAYING THERES A CHANCE!

Josh,

My edit was a little late I guess lol

Being at work screws up my posting times. I know we don't know for sure just trying to show how you can never be to sure about things.

I understand it can happen but to me the chances of it happenin are so slim that I feel its worth the risk to give them the extra space...

Either way I dont want any hard feelings between any other posters and I... My intentions with this post wasnt to cause problems or stirr things up it was just providing another way of doing things and my reasoning for doing it.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well I don't know what you want me to say. There are two very different schools of thought behind these posts.

One is that snakes don't feel emotions. They survive on instinct, and can't feel happy or sad about their enclosure, handler or food. I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

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I am of the mind they want to secure their settings by first confirming there are no immediate threats, then they will find a small secure place to hide until it is time to feed or breed.

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I understand that people do not think that snakes have "feelings" but last time i checked stress is considered a feeling or emotion. If snakes do not have feelings how can they become stressed out?

If you are going on the idea that snakes have basic insticts then they have flight or fight, they either flee or they bite you, one or the other. So based on that if my snake was feeling threatened by its surroundings because of having too large of an enclosure or offering it too many hides or climbing obstacles then it would either flee, find a place to hide, or it would strike at me or whatever else it felt threatened by.

Also if you want to go along the lines that snakes have no emotions or feelings, do you include other pets along the same lines? such as dogs, horses, cats, ect. ?? Where do you get your evidence or your assumptions that snakes do not have feelings or emotions? Have you talked to your snake?

No I am not saying that a snake is like a dog and is going to go lick your face because he is excited to see you but I am trying to point out that you can't just say that they have no feelings or emotions when you have no proof. You may not like my proof but atleast I have it.

One of my examples is one of my snakes did not particularly like my boyfriend but he "liked" me. He didn't want anything to do with my bf and would try to get away from him but with me he would just chill on me while I was sitting on the couch. He would let me pick him up, touch him, hold him, whatever. Yes you can connect the "Fight or Flee" theory to this example when you try to describe his reaction to my boyfriend but how do you use it to describe his reaction to me????? He did not try to bite me or get away from me.



And again going back to you saying that a snake will go and find a place to hide until it is ready to feed or eat. Yesturday, as I was typing my last post, the 07 baby I had neither tried to flee from me and find a place to hide or tried to fight me. She went from one end of the couch to the other, went over me, up and down my arms and legs. There were many places that should could have hid, under blankets, pillows, in the couch, or she could have tried to get away and would have went to one end of the couch and climbed down but she did neither. She stayed with me and continued to explore her surroundings, climbing over me, the posts, and throughout the blankets.

If you have not had that type of experience with your snake I would recommend trying it. It is pretty cool having a snake, an animal that many people feel threatened by and are scared off, continue to come back to you and let you touch it over and over again. You may laugh at me and say Im pushing my feelings and emotions onto a snake but in the end I know that relationship that I have with my pets most likely is nothing close to what you have with yours.

To clear it up.....I am not saying that snakes DO have feelings but i am also not saying that they DON'T. There is no proof on either end and its silly to have people judge people because they believe one thing or another.

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Originally Posted by Stetle49

I understand that people do not think that snakes have "feelings" but last time i checked stress is considered a feeling or emotion. If snakes do not have feelings how can they become stressed out?

If you are going on the idea that snakes have basic insticts then they have flight or fight, they either flee or they bite you, one or the other. So based on that if my snake was feeling threatened by its surroundings because of having too large of an enclosure or offering it too many hides or climbing obstacles then it would either flee, find a place to hide, or it would strike at me or whatever else it felt threatened by.

Also if you want to go along the lines that snakes have no emotions or feelings, do you include other pets along the same lines? such as dogs, horses, cats, ect. ?? Where do you get your evidence or your assumptions that snakes do not have feelings or emotions? Have you talked to your snake?

No I am not saying that a snake is like a dog and is going to go lick your face because he is excited to see you but I am trying to point out that you can't just say that they have no feelings or emotions when you have no proof. You may not like my proof but atleast I have it.

One of my examples is one of my snakes did not particularly like my boyfriend but he "liked" me. He didn't want anything to do with my bf and would try to get away from him but with me he would just chill on me while I was sitting on the couch. He would let me pick him up, touch him, hold him, whatever. Yes you can connect the "Fight or Flee" theory to this example when you try to describe his reaction to my boyfriend but how do you use it to describe his reaction to me????? He did not try to bite me or get away from me.



And again going back to you saying that a snake will go and find a place to hide until it is ready to feed or eat. Yesturday, as I was typing my last post, the 07 baby I had neither tried to flee from me and find a place to hide or tried to fight me. She went from one end of the couch to the other, went over me, up and down my arms and legs. There were many places that should could have hid, under blankets, pillows, in the couch, or she could have tried to get away and would have went to one end of the couch and climbed down but she did neither. She stayed with me and continued to explore her surroundings, climbing over me, the posts, and throughout the blankets.

If you have not had that type of experience with your snake I would recommend trying it. It is pretty cool having a snake, an animal that many people feel threatened by and are scared off, continue to come back to you and let you touch it over and over again. You may laugh at me and say Im pushing my feelings and emotions onto a snake but in the end I know that relationship that I have with my pets most likely is nothing close to what you have with yours.

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God bless America...

Just like we have no proof to show snakes have no emotions you equally have no proof that they do. I'm not claiming either is right but you'll tend to find that people who feel they have emotions with argue that it is the absolute truth.

Stress is not an emotional but a bodily response to an environment...
http://www.answers.com/topic/stress

"Stress

Definition

Stress is defined as an organism's total response to environmental demands or pressures. When stress was first studied in the 1950s, the term was used to denote both the causes and the experienced effects of these pressures. More recently, however, the word stressor has been used for the stimulus that provokes a stress response. One recurrent disagreement among researchers concerns the definition of stress in humans. Is it primarily an external response that can be measured by changes in glandular secretions, skin reactions, and other physical functions, or is it an internal interpretation of, or reaction to, a stressor; or is it both?"

~When we refer to stress in snakes the stimuli would be: large enclosure, low temps, improper humidity etc.

The response to the stimuli or how the snakes shows stress would be not eating, constant roaming, development of immune system issues.

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I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

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I still believe this. Your experiences have made up your mind. I still believe they do not have the reasoning skills like mammals and higher animals. And yes, I believe your viewing basic instinctive actions as a reasoned self conscious thought.
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If you want to view a snake's being secure around you as affection, that's fine. But I think your pushing qualifications on them they aren't readily deserving of.

And I feel that if you also have the same experienced your opinion would change. Which is why I am suggesting that you try it sometime, it is pretty cool!!:)