butter or lesser??????

Does anyone have pictures of "butter lessers". I wondered if you can gauge the genetics based off percentages of hatchlings in a butter x lesser pairing. But world of ball pythons states it would be 25% of each normal, lesser, butter and butter lesser, but there are no pictures.

I'm not all up and up on Bp genetics, but isn't this something that can be determined with breeding lesser x lesser; butter x butter, and butter x lesser? If there really is a noticeable difference, then doesn't that determine that they are indeed different? What do super butters, super lessers, and butter lessers look like in comparison to each other?

I mean, genetic percentages and combination colorings should be the telling factor, not just what butters or lessers look like individually.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Research more on reptile breeding or genetics in general. From your example, a green snake parent can have yellow or blue offspring. Those offspring cannot carry the green gene.
Here is it in BP terms: a pastel + lesser = pastel lesser. The pastel lesser can have pastel and lesser offspring when bred to a blank slate normal. Those offspring do not carry 'pastel lesser' so they cannot have pastel lesser hatchlings with a normal. And the pastel offspring does not carry any lesser genes. And vice versa. Otherwise it would be a pastel lesser.


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To elaborate on this, your blue/green/yellow example only applies to recessive genes.
Example, a albino to a normal. All offspring will be normal looking that carry the albino gene.

There are different forms of genes. They do different things in the ball pythons and with each other.

Key words to learn: Dominant, co dominant, recessive, homozygous, heterozygous.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

But by your own admission - in your own family your children represent the full spectrum.

Lessers and butters do the same thing. They both range from very bright to very dark - because they are the same thing.

Which is the lesser and which is the butter?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

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You still haven't answered my question.....

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Originally Posted by treachery

and again roseyreps, we are all on the honnor system I thought.....I have yet to meet a breeder(not saying some don't) who does test tube gene/dna and blood studies on all their snake. I'm not flip flopping I'm just again asking question? Isn't that what a true hypothesis is? to see if it stands up to a scientific method? I do trust the guy I got the snake from and the herp community, but I also have an open mind. How would anyone in fact know they were getting what they wanted without dna testing? Trust and the honnor system is very important in what we do, im sure we can all agree on this! One word HETS...lol....

The question I ask(AND PLEASE BEFORE ANYONES ELES MAKES A POST, HEAR THE QUESTION PLEASE!!!)is did someone, somewhere make a mistake with what is what (muddied up the lines) and now everyones EGO is letting them make claims that are in themselves just guesses. The point AGAIN is that no ONE person can say with 100% certainty what I have....and that's the RUBB and the funniest part of this whole thread. I show one pic of my snake, and one person says "trust the breeder", while another says butter, because of this traits or another says lesser because of this.....look at the many post on this thread or this topic, at my humble best I cannot call one person wrong or another right. AGAIN no matter who's line I start with anyone can question it one way or another, because as I've been told over and over and over and over that they are the same or that you could put a 6 of each in a pic and no one of us could guess them apart! So what I want to do is good ole trait "selective breeding". Getting all the butters and lesser I can a breeding for differences, to see what I can get. For some reason I feel like some of you are not seeing the forest for the trees. My guess is if i breed anything long enough no matter how dirty the genes are to start, I can breed traits out and/or in.....and that not bad science...that just science.

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As I said, selective breed all you want. If you are not starting from the beginning, you are not proving anything about the mentioned morphs, and are just proving out a new line of an already existing morph. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

Ralph Davis has the original platty daddy. He has the beginning. If you want to prove the differences, stop buying middle of the line or F9999999's and start buying from the ORIGINS of the genes. Ralph Davis for Lessers, and the Bells for butters. Anything other than that and you are just line breeding, not proving. This is your problem, you are confusing the two. Do you want to make lessers and butters better by breeding in or out traits that you believe make them better? GREAT! That's line breeding, and you're on the right track! Do you want to prove to the world that lessers and butters are different morphs entirely, that just simply got muddied with time? Then see my other 4 posts... You want to do both? Super awesome! Still need to start at the beginning.

It matters A LOT whose line you start with. You start with joe schmoe, and the possibility of mud is high. You start from the originators of the gene, you are starting with the original genes. Period. I believe it is you who are being close minded at this point, we are trying to set you on the right path to prove your hypothesis, it is you who are failing to see that there is a path at all.

We're not telling you anything about lessers and butters being same/different etc, we're saying your method is flawed, and if you want to prove something, you need to correct it.

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Originally Posted by eskye

Does anyone have pictures of "butter lessers". I wondered if you can gauge the genetics based off percentages of hatchlings in a butter x lesser pairing. But world of ball pythons states it would be 25% of each normal, lesser, butter and butter lesser, but there are no pictures.

I'm not all up and up on Bp genetics, but isn't this something that can be determined with breeding lesser x lesser; butter x butter, and butter x lesser? If there really is a noticeable difference, then doesn't that determine that they are indeed different? What do super butters, super lessers, and butter lessers look like in comparison to each other?

I mean, genetic percentages and combination colorings should be the telling factor, not just what butters or lessers look like individually.

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All are pure white. People don't like breeding for super lessers, super butters, or lesser butter due to the increased chance for eye deformaties. Any of these 3 have the potential to get bug eyes, which is why mojave x lesser/butter is more common.

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Originally Posted by eskye

Does anyone have pictures of "butter lessers". I wondered if you can gauge the genetics based off percentages of hatchlings in a butter x lesser pairing. But world of ball pythons states it would be 25% of each normal, lesser, butter and butter lesser, but there are no pictures.

I'm not all up and up on Bp genetics, but isn't this something that can be determined with breeding lesser x lesser; butter x butter, and butter x lesser? If there really is a noticeable difference, then doesn't that determine that they are indeed different? What do super butters, super lessers, and butter lessers look like in comparison to each other?

I mean, genetic percentages and combination colorings should be the telling factor, not just what butters or lessers look like individually.

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They all are pure white with blue eyes ;)

Then that sounds like enough determination to me, haha! From reading this whole thread it sounds like the only differences are between coloration in lines. If it all produces the same thing, doesn't that mean it shares the same gene? Anyone got a DNA test lab? Find the gene!

As an outsider, I am very convinced by the argument that they're the same. I see flaws in the opposition.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL

Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
Rabernet....IDK......thats why I aksed in the first place......I think...I did a bad job of explaning myself

I started out just like anyone else who doesn't know something I asked! So I'll start over one by one.....
first are butters and lessers the same but with different name?

and if they are the same what makes todays butter a butter and what makes todays lesser a lesser?

and last based on them being the same breed as roseyrep said doing some line breeding to make the better in each aspect....

And to you again roseyrep, I think I at last got my two part point accross as posted above, I wasn't trying to confused the two, guess i did a poor job of explaning myself....BUT I am kinda turned off by your statement (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) the only people we should trust is the people who have the original line of snakes. So I'ma let that go....cause to me thats a slap in the face of anyone besides Ralph Davis who breeds snakes, and again back to the trust thing, if you sell me a snake and tell me it's from the Ralph Davis line, your rep as a snake dealer is on the line, and the rest of the herp world should trust you...or maybe I just live with rose colored glasses! Cause at the end of the day if Ralph Davis is the original breeder of these fine snakes we'd also have to trust in him!

point well taken, just trying my best to show no matter what a mix is a mix....nothing is 100% in genes, thats the whole hitler pure race speak! so if I show a Black man on the outside doesn't mean that in my history I'm not mixed! I came here to find out first what the difference between a lesser and a butter was....and the fact that I got so many different responces sparked my scientific mind and now we are here...LOL

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Originally Posted by treachery

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL

Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
Rabernet....IDK......thats why I aksed in the first place......I think...I did a bad job of explaning myself

I started out just like anyone else who doesn't know something I asked! So I'll start over one by one.....
first are butters and lessers the same but with different name?

and if they are the same what makes todays butter a butter and what makes todays lesser a lesser?

and last based on them being the same breed as roseyrep said doing some line breeding to make the better in each aspect....

And to you again roseyrep, I think I at last got my two part point accross as posted above, I wasn't trying to confused the two, guess i did a poor job of explaning myself....BUT I am kinda turned off by your statement (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) the only people we should trust is the people who have the original line of snakes. So I'ma let that go....cause to me thats a slap in the face of anyone besides Ralph Davis who breeds snakes, and again back to the trust thing, if you sell me a snake and tell me it's from the Ralph Davis line, your rep as a snake dealer is on the line, and the rest of the herp world should trust you...or maybe I just live with rose colored glasses! Cause at the end of the day if Ralph Davis is the original breeder of these fine snakes we'd also have to trust in him!

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I trust the breeder's I buy from that they are what they say they are. I am not trying to prove a difference though, or claiming they are different and wanting to prove that we have muddied the water. That was you ;) So yes, if you want to prove their differences, the only people you should get your starters from are the ones stated. It's the only way to be 100% sure. You can ask anyone on here who has seen my recent posts about my enchi, I trust my breeders to a fault even :P

So no, I did not say we should not trust people. I said if YOU think the lines are muddied, YOU need to buy directly from the source to be sure. I'm perfectly happy, and believe 1000% (exaggeration is fun!) that my Lesser Pastel girl is a lesser pastel. I got her from GCR, not RDR. I am not the one doubting the lines though ;)

You misinterpret my point, and that's ok. I'll also try and make them more clear. Trust your breeders.

When speaking of science, and being certain, you have to get from the source. Preferably one of the original wild import clutches, not just any lesser/butter from them.