Big snakes, small enclosures.

Sometimes, I like will read Wes' posts as if Stewie from Family Guy is narrating.... it makes it pretty funny :D

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Originally Posted by Nate

Sometimes, I like will read Wes' posts as if Stewie from Family Guy is narrating.... it makes it pretty funny :D

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:rofl:!!! I'm going to do that from now on. :D

Leave the guy (BRIAN) alone he spends a crap load of his own money to produce a show to promote all you smaller breeders, maybe if he didn't do the show he could buy 20 foot cages, then you guys would find another thing to complain about and he would be just as successful selling snakes with everyone who knows how great his animals are cared for, but the smaller breeders wouldn't have as much business. Their are always ppl complaining for the reason to hear their own voice, think they are special. keep up the great breeding, snakes aren't like ppl, like the dude way before said about being in the closet wanting to breed the naked girl, if they aren't happy they aren't breeding. We all know that isn't the case over at bhb, every year he comes out with crazier and crazier morphs, but more importantly his percentages of breeding are very good that means healthy AND happy.

One thing that really bothers me is that some of you have the attitude that it's someone's own choice and they can do what they want with their animals. Honestly, I couldn't care less if one of you jumped off a bridge and was in the hospital for months. However, if you're a Nile Monitor keeper, you MUST fulfill its requirements. After all, you're taking this animal to take of it, and having it in a 5.5ft tub is not fulfilling its requirements.

Brian goes to many reptile shows. To make a profit, no? How about one day he doesn't go and he prepares a perfectly sized monitor cage... with actual heat and size requirements. Go to home depot and build a nice big cage.

Again, as a keeper, you are responsible for taking good care of an animal. In the end it's "your choice" with what you want to do with an animal, but if you decide to keep an animal, you MUST TAKE CARE OF IT PROPERLY.

Say what you like, but you can't put a 6ft Nile Monitor in a 5.5ft tub in a snake rack with snake requirements.

haha im a creep. Thats the same thing my mother always said to me!

Dutch I wouldnt worry to much on this anymore. We have our views and otheres have there. I just feel sorry for the nile.

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Originally Posted by Denial

haha im a creep. Thats the same thing my mother always said to me!

Dutch I wouldnt worry to much on this anymore. We have our views and otheres have there. I just feel sorry for the nile.

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Unfortunately.

I just don't get why these people don't realize that you can't keep a 6ft nile in a tub? Even a 10x3 is waaaay too small (in my opinion, for you "it's your opinion" people).

Just because it's Brian, doesn't mean he's an expert. He certainly isn't keeping that Nile like one, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Unfortunately.

I just don't get why these people don't realize that you can't keep a 6ft nile in a tub? Even a 10x3 is waaaay too small (in my opinion, for you "it's your opinion" people).

Just because it's Brian, doesn't mean he's an expert. He certainly isn't keeping that Nile like one, that's for sure.

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Tell me again, if you would be so kind, how many niles do you have and for how long have you been keeping them?

Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.

Have you, YOU, talked to Brian or are you just reacting to suppositions?

Because, you see, if you have no facts to go on, if you don't know why or how long that tub held that lizard, you're no better than the little pooflinger imitating the larger but equally ignorant pooflingers who screech and scream so well but run hand hide, she and demure when the object of their fecal flinging spree, heretofore in absentia, shows up.

So little chimp, you just a flinger or have you actually done any talking to the big chimps?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Tell me again, if you would be so kind, how many niles do you have and for how long have you been keeping them?

Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.

Have you, YOU, talked to Brian or are you just reacting to suppositions?

Because, you see, if you have no facts to go on, if you don't know why or how long that tub held that lizard, you're no better than the little pooflinger imitating the larger but equally ignorant pooflingers who screech and scream so well but run hand hide, she and demure when the object of their fecal flinging spree, heretofore in absentia, shows up.

So little chimp, you just a flinger or have you actually done any talking to the big chimps?

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I have never kept a single lizard in my life.

Does that mean I don't know anything about their care? Yeapers.

Does that mean I don't have common sense? No sir.

Wes, it doesn't take an expert to see that a Nile Monitor cannot be kept in a 5.5ft tub. I'm not commenting on breeding these lizards, what temperatures to keep them at, what lights to give them, what substrate, or water needs to provide them with.

I can, however, tell you that a 6ft Nile Monitor cannot be kept in a goshdarn tub. How can a lizard that size honestly be kept in a tub like that?! I just don't get why you have to be an expert to see this. Honestly baffled to hear someone tell me I'm baby chimpanzee preaching what the bigger chimpanzees have said when any nutjob can see that a monitor cannot be kept in complete darkness.

Again, he may not be in there for long. But he's in there for too long. You can get a perfect cage in a week.

If Brian keeps so many animals, he has to take care of them. If he can't take care of the animals he's got properly, he needs to step back and assess the situation.

Okay... I am not going to say ANYTHING except what I personally feel about keeping my own snakes. I have a rack system. I hate it, I feel like it's a prison cell. My other enclosures are 38 large open enclosures, which I feel my snakes are MUCH more content in. But then again, I keep mostly garter snakes who will not thrive in a rack system quite like ball pythons will.They will tolerate it, but I can tell they hate it and will cruise around in a circle in a tub all day. I use my rack system mostly for baby snakes, feeding shy eaters, gravid females, my ball pythons (whom I must say do exceedingly well in this setup) and really high strung snakes who need their absolute privacy. I have to keep it around, because of the high volume of baby snakes I end up with from my garters. But if I get the chance, I will replace it. I like to give my snakes space, with a choice of hides, water bowl large enough to go for a little swim, lots of plant and climby things, not to mention the option to expierience a temperature gradient, and overhead lighting, even if it's not the heat source. I don't feel that I have the right to keep a giant snake until I have built an enclosure large enough for that snake to do as it pleases. Many say that the giant snakes don't want to move around, but I have seen videos of wild adult retics, and they seem quite agile and active for such large snakes. Somehow I don't see a snake like that laying around like a total space out zombie for months on end. They are not going to move around in captivity if they are not given the option. A snake stuffed into a small dark container where it can't really move around much, or do really anything except wrap around it's water bowl and eat, in my opinion does not get to live it's life to the fullest. Even if it lives for a long time, what is the point of keeping my snakes, if I can't see and observe them? If It ever gets to the point where I can't personally interact and observe all of my snakes on a daily basis, then I'll know I have too many and will cut back.

The number one thing I absolutely hate is when people say that there is a such thing as too large of an enclosure for a snake. There is a such thing, only if all of the space is not harnessed and used right. But if you use it right, there's no such thing as too large a cage. Remember, no matter how big it is, it's still a CAGE. In the wild, the WORLD is their enclosure. If you put a baby snake in a 75 gallon tank, with a few hides and a water bowl it will probably stress out majorly from being in too open of a space. But if you fill it with tons of places to go, climb, hide, and explore, multiple water dishes and such, and are able to regularly supply him with food, why not? Sure, it's not convenient for us, and it's not an easy thing to keep up with, but that doesn't mean it isn't doable.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Tell me again, if you would be so kind, how many niles do you have and for how long have you been keeping them?

Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.

Have you, YOU, talked to Brian or are you just reacting to suppositions?

Because, you see, if you have no facts to go on, if you don't know why or how long that tub held that lizard, you're no better than the little pooflinger imitating the larger but equally ignorant pooflingers who screech and scream so well but run hand hide, she and demure when the object of their fecal flinging spree, heretofore in absentia, shows up.

So little chimp, you just a flinger or have you actually done any talking to the big chimps?

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Being an expert doesn't mean your doing everything right. I know reputation seems to be a big thing with you but lets be real, ASIDE from who has more rep points or who has their own TV show or who is younger than who else. Tell me, honestly does it make sense to you for a large, adult Nile monitor to be kept in a tub that size? I want a yes or no. Not some long da-da-da philosophy that slowly works its way off-topic.

This has been a rather interesting post to read. All bickering aside....

The size of an enclosure is all about perspective and goals. What sort of behaviors will the enclosure need to allow? What goals does the keeper have with the animal?

I have seen videos of retics climbing 30'+ trees in a matter of seconds to chase after monkeys. I have also read articles describing pythons to be stationary for extended periods of time. So what behaviors do I need to let them experience in captivity? Does a retic need to climb trees to chase after prey to remain healthy? If they sit in ambush for months at a time, it is ok to let them sit in small spaces in captivity?

I have articles saying monitors can roam over a territory of over a kilometer in a day's time. I have watched green anoles cross my fenceline and down my neighbor's...that is over a 400' territory. I have seen 2' rough green snakes get from the ground to 15' up in a bush in the blink of an eye. Are the enclosures we provide adequate enough?

ALL KEEPERS provide inadequate condition with respect to natural conditions. I have yet to see an enclosure that allows ALL natural behaviors and opportunities.

I love to hear people talk about arboreal enclosure. "Check out this arboreal enclosure I built. Ya, it is 7 feet tall". Actual arboreal snakes can migrate from ground level to the tree tops. And 7 feet is providing enough vertical space? Does a snake know the difference between 3 ft. and 7 ft.? Can they tell the difference between 7 ft. and 30 ft.? Who knows.

WE keep CAPTIVE animals. What the animal "wants" is insignificant. The conditions that the animal needs to stay alive is the minimum.

The life processes that THE KEEPER WANTS to see is what matters in choice of enclosure.

If THE KEEPER'S interest is breeding, the keeper needs an enclosure that allows successful breeding.

If THE KEEPER'S interest is observation of natural behaviors, the enclosure needs to be built to allow some natural behaviors.

Enclosures suit THE KEEPER'S goals.

If the enclosure does not support life. The enclosure is a failure.

If the enclosure does not allow the life event that the keeper desires...THAT ENCLOSURE IS INADEQUATE.

We will never agree on the 'rights and wrongs' of keeping reptiles. We all have different goals and perspectives.

That is what makes the reptile community so interesting.

While I agree with most of your stuff, Daniel, there is a bare minimum that this thread is addressing. Of course, if a breeder is interested in breeding only, the animal can be kept in the minimum adequate space.

However, I think most if not all expert (yes, I went there, Wes) monitor and large boid keepers will agree that Brian's caging is too small. Especially the monitor's.

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

While I agree with most of your stuff, Daniel, there is a bare minimum that this thread is addressing. Of course, if a breeder is interested in breeding only, the animal can be kept in the minimum adequate space.

However, I think most if not all expert (yes, I went there, Wes) monitor and large boid keepers will agree that Brian's caging is too small. Especially the monitor's.

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Again, what are the keeper's goals?

Does the cage allow the goals to be met?

You are discussing MINIMUM requirements? Minimum requirements for what? What is the goal that is trying to be achieved? What life processes do you want to take place?

How is siting curled in an enclosure different than sitting curled in ambush? Does the snake know the difference? It is sitting waiting on food in both instances, then when breeding season rolls around it is trying to find a mate.

In response to the monitor caging, I could use the example that is thrown around frequently with respect to ball pythons. They spend alot of time in borrows don't they? A monitor in nature, sleeps in a borrow. Roams for food. Then returns to it's borrow. A monitor in a rack, sleeps in a rack, gets food brought to it, then sleeps in a rack. Is it all that different? The only thing I see different is level of physical activity. Does the monitor care if it is not physically active?

Like I said. It is all about the keeper's goals. They are captive animals. Reptiles are interesting in that if a keeper provides inadequate conditions.....the animals tend to get sick and die. If a monitor is kept in a small enclosure and does not recieve proper exercise, it will die of obesity. Reptile are not like mammals that can readily fend for themselves in bad conditions. We are their sole provider.

I find these topics interesting. I support my animals in a fashion that allows me to achieve my goals with the animals. That is my way(and just about everyone elses' IMO). My goals differ from your goals, or Brians goal, or everyone elses goals. That is what provides this community with a wide range of reptile housing possibilities.

I just wanted to throw all that out there to add to the discussion ;)

Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?

Has anyone even heard a rumor that Brian was using those tubs for permanent homes?

I've been chuckling all day at all the SUPPOSING some of you have been doing.

Has anyone actually talked to Brian?

daniel = finally smart person!! great posts.....
for the animals natural habitats.... we all suck, and are doing harm, we all do our best to make sure the animal is happy but we can't provide the world to them, even a dog with a 4 acre backyard fenced in.... is still fenced it.... leave brian alone, he is doing the ENTIRE reptile a huge favor by giving snakes a better name then anyone not owning snakes gives them

keep it up brian!!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?

Has anyone even heard a rumor that Brian was using those tubs for permanent homes?

I've been chuckling all day at all the SUPPOSING some of you have been doing.

Has anyone actually talked to Brian?

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If the keeper's goal is to provide temporary housing, then all is well. :)

People do alot of ASSUMING over the internet. Brian's 4-6 minute videos have been coming out for over a year now. That gives alot of ammo for peoples' speculations....and it doesn't help that you only see a small fraction of his faculity in the videos.

Like if I had shown a picture of a snake in a dirty cage, people could assume that I do not clean any of my cages. They have no idea that it was cleaning day and things were clean a few hours later.

People are funny like that.

Brian has been getting slack for his monitor keeping for quite some time. Yet I am unable to find an edition of SnakeBytes where he shows us the "actual enclosures". Or even the makings of one.

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.
Tubs are ridiculous for monitors, and Wes, I have been keeping large varanids since 1990, and I know what I'm talking about. Tubs DO make great water containers for small monitors and medium snakes. And I have been keeping giant snakes since 1986.

You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves. The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...

We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go. I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.

Not that you'll listen to me, you've got your own greed to think about...

Chris

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Originally Posted by mumps

You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves. The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...

We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go. I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.

Not that you'll listen to me, you've got your own greed to think about...

Chris

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I'm interested, after 30 years what exactly in the way of behavior has shown you that these are smart snakes? What exactly is torture to a snake? How have they expressed it to you? What exactly entails a snake being itself?

If we've yet to scratch the surface of behavior studies how can you be so sure of your own conclusions?

Just curious...

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Originally Posted by mumps

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are

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I've seen you bash tubs a few times and I just want this cleared up..

Do you believe tubs are poor containers for ALL snakes? Or just the large species you have worked with?

What exactly makes a tub worse than other housing?

It can't be the dimensions of tubs, because there certainly are tubs that perfectly match the size requirements for many different species.

It can't be temperature/humidity issues.. because if anything tubs are better for that than any other housing (I'm convinced even the expensive plastic housing out there isn't as good at maintaining temps and humidity).

So what is it you dislike so much about tubs for snakes?

P.S. FWIW I don't use tubs for any of my animals. I just don't think they are bad for most snakes.

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Originally Posted by mumps

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.

Chris

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Im going to have to strongly disagree with that statment.

Tubs are great and offer snake privacy and space as long as an adequate tub size is provided.

In this case, they don't seem to make giant tubs big enough for adult, giant pythons.

Like I said, no matter how long you have been working with snakes doesn't mean you are doing everything right.

Other than how he is keeping some of his larger snakes and monitor. I just want to say, I love what brian does for the reptile community. This thread was not meant to be an attack, just an observation.

I got into this hobby because reptiles fascinate the hell out of me. Their patterns, colors, behaviors, mysteriousness all intrigue me to no end.

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you. You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you. You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

You think they are content in there? Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue. If big breeders can make all that money and be successful breeding by using these tubs then they must be all that. Just because something works doesn't mean it is good for the animals. Chickens lay a lot of eggs cooped up 4 in a square foot of space. Does that mean they're happy? Gorillas in zoos used to live in a concrete room with a tire on a chain. They lived, grew old and entertained millions of visitors. Why the change to large natural environments where on some days visitors never even get to see them?

I guess what it boils down to is personal preferance. I like to see, touch, interact and learn from my animals. Nothing is cooler to me than to have something which so many fear and loathe trust you and know that you mean them no harm. I'm talking gators, varanids and the giant snakes. They, to me, are the best. So maybe that's one of the reasons... am I jealous that I can't find a tub big enough for 7 foot water monitors? Or 16 foot retics? No. I just don't comprehend the idea of purchasing a 5 thousand dollar morph and stuffing it into a drawer and looking at it once a week...

The only tub I would agree upon would be the 8 footers Brian mentioned. I would suppose that would be alright for a blood python.

And I am not attacking Brian. He has a huge business and he is doing the best he can in order to make a living. He's a mass production facility. Not a hobbyist. He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford. Good for him.

Chris

So, from your years of interactive observance you've learned that snakes are like gorillas......

Well, I guess we could go BACK to the how is a mammalian need relevant to this thread, but we've been there and done that and frankly, since your mind is made up, I see little point in revisiting it.

I feel no need to convince you of anything.

Mumps you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the people here, they're motives for doing things etc.

I don't think you answered any of my questions, for a second I thought you might actually be on to something after 30 years experience under your belt.

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Originally Posted by mumps

He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford.
Chris

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Really? :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Buttons

Really? :rofl:

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I see from your sig that you have a handful of his snakes, axanthic pins perhaps? :rofl:

Chris

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Originally Posted by mumps

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you. You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you. You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

You think they are content in there? Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue.

Chris

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I have stayed out of this thread for too long. But you think tubs are bad. So I keep my ball pythons in tubs, where they shed, eat, poop regularly, as well as grow, thermoregulate, breed, live in correct humidity, and easy to clean environments, and that is wrong. And the person who keeps a ball python in a 75 gallon tank, where it paces endlessly, never finding an ideal spot to be comfortable, is covered in stuck sheds because humidity is incorrect, and ends up with RI because the heat isn't correct, is the one that is right?

I am pretty sure the fact that an extremely picky species of snake, eats better, and in general thrives better in a tub, means something.

Are tubs right for all animals? No. Are the tried and tested correct for some? Yes!

I think the problem is, a few people suffer from a closed mind, and a holier than thou-issue.

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Originally Posted by mumps

I see from your sig that you have a handful of his snakes, axanthic pins perhaps? :rofl:

Chris

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There are many people out there with expensive morphs from BHB who AREN'T "mass production facilities". That is a ridiculous statement to make.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I'm interested, after 30 years what exactly in the way of behavior has shown you that these are smart snakes? What exactly is torture to a snake? How have they expressed it to you? What exactly entails a snake being itself?

If we've yet to scratch the surface of behavior studies how can you be so sure of your own conclusions?

Just curious...

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My last thread was trying to convey some of my thoughts, not answer your questions. I'll give you some answers, as best I can.

Behavior = smart. A lot of keepers believe that snakes run on instinct only and are incapable of learning. They only know it's feeding time if they smell food, etc.

I had a burm that I raised, and every mealtime I tapped on the left hand wall outside his enclosure before opening it to offer food. He learned this ritual and was very enthusiastically greeting me when I did the tap...

What is torture to a snake? Giving it a home range of 2 square feet. Just because something can survive in a certain manner doesn't mean it should.

How is a snake "being itself". By swimming if it wants to swim. Climbing if it wants to climb. Hiding if it wants to hide. Eating if it wants to eat. Sleeping if it wants to sleep. Breeding if it wants to breed. The only option tubs provide is sleeping and the occasional breeding.

As for Wes, my aren't you a clever one. Besides the fact that you keep 5 foot snakes in 12 inch square tubs, what has made you such a leading expert in the fields of herpetoculture/herpetology? Your ability to be articulate really seems to impress the masses here. I was not saying snakes are like gorillas. I was stating the progress that humans have made in understanding the real needs of animals in order for them to thrive in captivity. As I stated earlier, when people first observed crocs moving their young to the safety of the water, it was believed that they were eating their young (maybe you're not old enough to be aware of this fact). We now know, at least some of us, that they are actually caring parents. Did you know afrock hatchlings stay near their mother until their first shed? Basking and burrowing right along side her? I'm glad you feel you have no need to convince me of anything, as I highly doubt that you could.

Chris

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Originally Posted by stormwulf133

I have stayed out of this thread for too long. But you think tubs are bad. So I keep my ball pythons in tubs, where they shed, eat, poop regularly, as well as grow, thermoregulate, breed, live in correct humidity, and easy to clean environments, and that is wrong. And the person who keeps a ball python in a 75 gallon tank, where it paces endlessly, never finding an ideal spot to be comfortable, is covered in stuck sheds because humidity is incorrect, and ends up with RI because the heat isn't correct, is the one that is right?

I am pretty sure the fact that an extremely picky species of snake, eats better, and in general thrives better in a tub, means something.

Are tubs right for all animals? No. Are the tried and tested correct for some? Yes!

I think the problem is, a few people suffer from a closed mind, and a holier than thou-issue.

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No. It just means that the person using the 75 gallon tank isn't doing it right. Perhaps tubs are a "snakes for dummies" answer? I don't know. If you don't know how to take care of something, don't keep it.

I don't use tanks either.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

No. It just means that the person using the 75 gallon tank isn't doing it right. Perhaps tubs are a "snakes for dummies" answer? I don't know. If you don't know how to take care of something, don't keep it.

I don't use tanks either.

Chris

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And those of us who use tubs could say the same to those who DON'T.

Mumps,

I had the same opinions on tubs when I first joined this site - based on the same, utterly incorrect, assumptions I was making that you are now.

I will try and cover some of the points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

I got into this hobby because reptiles fascinate the hell out of me. Their patterns, colors, behaviors, mysteriousness all intrigue me to no end.

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you. You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you. You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

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That's pretty much the same reason we are all here so please bear that in mind while reading our posts. :)

You are making a few assumptions about tubs that simply aren't accurate - they are not all totaly opaque. And you do in fact get a brand called iris which are glass clear and very popular for that very reason.

You can see and check on them perfectly fine for most of us - or at least as easily as you can with a glass tank. The same comment about disturbing them applies to opening the lid of a tank etc.

And, since we feed and clean our tubs just as often as you do we have exactly the same chances to get to know each other as you do with yours.

We are not putting them in drawers like socks - we simply replaced glass with plastic. That is the total extent of the change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

You think they are content in there? Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

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And, equally, since you do not use the system and have therefore no experience of it you have not one single shred of evidence they are saying it.

I have used both for not only the same species but the same animals I previously kept together in a five foot by two foot square tank - and trust me they do fine seperated in a rack system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue. If big breeders can make all that money and be successful breeding by using these tubs then they must be all that. Just because something works doesn't mean it is good for the animals. Chickens lay a lot of eggs cooped up 4 in a square foot of space. Does that mean they're happy? Gorillas in zoos used to live in a concrete room with a tire on a chain. They lived, grew old and entertained millions of visitors. Why the change to large natural environments where on some days visitors never even get to see them?

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You are wrong about the money issue - the difference in price between a glass tank and a tub is minimal and the rest of the equipment is still needed.

Self build isn't hard or expensive either. Store bought plastic caging isn't cheap but people still use it.

I get that you have formed opinions based on the intelligence and mental alacrity of reptiles based on the simple pattern recognition you taught your burm - but I have news for you, people have taught similar levels of conditioning to insects. And I don't mean ants or other colony animals here.

I really see limited relevance to your chicken or gorilla analogy in relation to these animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

I guess what it boils down to is personal preferance. I like to see, touch, interact and learn from my animals. Nothing is cooler to me than to have something which so many fear and loathe trust you and know that you mean them no harm. I'm talking gators, varanids and the giant snakes. They, to me, are the best. So maybe that's one of the reasons... am I jealous that I can't find a tub big enough for 7 foot water monitors? Or 16 foot retics? No. I just don't comprehend the idea of purchasing a 5 thousand dollar morph and stuffing it into a drawer and looking at it once a week...

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Again, so do we.

And you fail to comprehend the idea because that idea is not what any of us are doing - with the possible exception of a big breeder with thousands of animals.

I see my animals almost constantly from this seat and see every single one of them at least once a day while checking for poop and pee etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mumps

The only tub I would agree upon would be the 8 footers Brian mentioned. I would suppose that would be alright for a blood python.

And I am not attacking Brian. He has a huge business and he is doing the best he can in order to make a living. He's a mass production facility. Not a hobbyist. He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford. Good for him.

Chris

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Brian is indeed a prefessional breeder - but the phrase "mass production" is, by implication, doing him a great dis-service and completely ignoring the path he went through to get to where he is today.

And I think you will find most of his customers are regular keepers like us.


dr del

I'm with Mumps on this one. I think Ball Pythons are one of the very select species that actually benefit from being in a rack.

However, my limited experience with carpet pythons and corn snakes has led me to believe (as well as other people's experience, mind you) that they would much prefer to be in a tank. I guess it's more of the Euro perspective... in some nations there are even laws about what the minimum enclosure requirements are.

Dutch,

Beyond reason, you continue to tell us that the monitor lives in that small drawer, something Brian has explicitly said he does not do. That certainly makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth over and over again.

Let me know when you go see Brian's facility. I'll go with you.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Mumps,

I had the same opinions on tubs when I first joined this site - based on the same, utterly incorrect, assumptions I was making that you are now.

I will try and cover some of the points.



That's pretty much the same reason we are all here so please bear that in mind while reading our posts. :)

You are making a few assumptions about tubs that simply aren't accurate - they are not all totaly opaque. And you do in fact get a brand called iris which are glass clear and very popular for that very reason.

You can see and check on them perfectly fine for most of us - or at least as easily as you can with a glass tank. The same comment about disturbing them applies to opening the lid of a tank etc.

And, since we feed and clean our tubs just as often as you do we have exactly the same chances to get to know each other as you do with yours.

We are not putting them in drawers like socks - we simply replaced glass with plastic. That is the total extent of the change.



And, equally, since you do not use the system and have therefore no experience of it you have not one single shred of evidence they are saying it.

I have used both for not only the same species but the same animals I previously kept together in a five foot by two foot square tank - and trust me they do fine seperated in a rack system.



You are wrong about the money issue - the difference in price between a glass tank and a tub is minimal and the rest of the equipment is still needed.

Self build isn't hard or expensive either. Store bought plastic caging isn't cheap but people still use it.

I get that you have formed opinions based on the intelligence and mental alacrity of reptiles based on the simple pattern recognition you taught your burm - but I have news for you, people have taught similar levels of conditioning to insects. And I don't mean ants or other colony animals here.

I really see limited relevance to your chicken or gorilla analogy in relation to these animals.



Again, so do we.

And you fail to comprehend the idea because that idea is not what any of us are doing - with the possible exception of a big breeder with thousands of animals.

I see my animals almost constantly from this seat and see every single one of them at least once a day while checking for poop and pee etc.




Brian is indeed a prefessional breeder - but the phrase "mass production" is, by implication, doing him a great dis-service and completely ignoring the path he went through to get to where he is today.

And I think you will find most of his customers are regular keepers like us.


dr del

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Couldn't agree more!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Dutch,

Beyond reason, you continue to tell us that the monitor lives in that small drawer, something Brian has explicitly said he does not do. That certainly makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth over and over again.

Let me know when you go see Brian's facility. I'll go with you.

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Where've you been? Someone posted something that said it was a temporary housing, not a feeding tub.

And I don't need to go to Brian's facility to see that he has at least one huge afrock in a 5.5ft tub (that of course will be upgraded, sometime in the future :rolleyes:) and a Nile Monitor in a temporary housing where he can't even stretch out...

Where have you been? I've only ever seen Brian state that it is a feeding tub for the show. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Where have you been? I've only ever seen Brian state that it is a feeding tub for the show. :rolleyes:

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Since you asked...

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Originally Posted by Enser54

In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):

YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3

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I see FrankyKeno and her Husband in the video, perhaps she would let us know a little more about the temporary set up that was OVER A YEAR AGO.

How do you even know how long the animal was kept in the tub? Was it a week? A day? A few hours?

You have no idea how long the monitor was in the tub, so why do you continue to gripe about a temporary enclosure when you have no idea how long the animal was in it?

I've seen several videos in which that monitor is feautured in the same type tub. Maybe you're right, maybe the monitor was only there for a few hours. I just find it highly unlikely, because the way Brian said it didn't make it seem like they were working at it right that moment.

And shouldn't a temporary enclosure still provide the animal with the proper requirements?

Which requirements are inadequate for a temporary tub?

I'm guessing the temperatures...? :rolleyes:

Since when are large boids housed with basking spots well over the 100s?

Ohhh, so you actually have no proof of the temps in there. Just more poo flinging based on speculation.

Tapping on the cage, then feeding, and getting a alert response from the animal is what's called "operant conditioning". You can do it with ANY creature that you have a positive reenforcement with. You can teach a ant, a roach, a chicken, a goldfish, or a gorilla with it. You can teach ANYTHING including a reptile with operant conditioning.

Kudos to you. You taught a snake to react when you tapped. You successfully used operant conditioning to get a alert response. How is that significant to any of the discussion?

I use tubs, because my snakes were not happy in large open enclosures with "options". They paced, they rubbed noses, they constantly tried to escape. In the tubs, they hang out and feed regularly, and "seem" more relaxed, without being balled tightly constantly.

Again.. just because someone doesn't do exactly as YOU do, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Connie has a good point too. And plus, why do people keep skipping back and forth? The one was said to be a feeding tub, one was temporary housing while the enclosure was rebuilt, and a few giants were in tubs while some larger ones were being ordered(or built?). I don't think a nile would be happy in a 5 ft tub. But I don't believe I ever heard Brian say that the nile stayed in the tub, and I don't belive I've seen the nile in multiple videos living in the tub.

Again. Please remember that YOUR way is not the ONLY way. I like tubs, but I'm not trying to force you to use tubs, are I? You can give each individual ball python you own a freaking ROOM to hide in for all I care. I'll personally think it's stupid, wasteful, and stressfull on the snake, and keep my opinion to myself unless you post it asking for what people think.

Now, I'd love to one day have a whole indoor room for the blackthroat monitors. When I build a house, I intend to have a reptile specific room, and the reptile rooms will include space for racks for the ball pythons. Not because of money, because I could easily set up in tanks cheaper. Because I truely belive that for my snakes, the racks work better. And I see them quite often.

Thanks for disparaging not only my set ups, but also my level of care, and my love and appreciation of reptiles in general... all because I refuse to keep my pets exactly like you do.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Ohhh, so you actually have no proof of the temps in there. Just more poo flinging based on speculation.

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Poo flinging... ah yes, of course.

Let's put it this way...

If Brian keeps his pythons at the "correct temperature", then it's most likely far too low for a Nile.

If Brian keeps his Nile at the "correct temperature", then he's most likely cooking his snakes.

You sounded stupid with that last statement, with all due respect.

And you have no idea what or how large rack systems work in a breeders building apparently. So you sound pretty stupid, if you ask me. ;)

And btw, not all of those tubs are full in that snake room. Last I was in there, there we're very few snakes. He could easily give a hot spot of 100 in one tub if he wished. He may only have a heat strip, and only on the one tub!

So continue with your baseless assumptions and poo flinging. Simply, you've never been there, you don't know how long the animal was in the tub or the conditions in the room or that one single tub.

Yup, pretty picture you've painted of yourself.

This sort of resembles the "1 Hide Vs 2 or even 0" arguments people like to bring up about ball pythons...

This reminds me of a cyclical debate where the two parties just have to agree to disagree because niether is going to budge on their beliefs on where they stand...kind of like religion. :P

...or continue the debating...because it is obviously getting somehwere... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

And shouldn't a temporary enclosure still provide the animal with the proper requirements?

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I guess when I get a reptile shipped, it must be shipped with battery operated thermostats and heat tape. I guess when I go to a reptile show everyone should bring their entire enclosures to house the herps they are selling too. But hmmm how are they going to temporarily keep the heat going in the car they bring them in?

I think this thread will continue to go on and on until we actually get Brian in here and get down to the facts.


I'm very curious to see what he has to say.

I honestly don't think Brian should have to come here to explain himself. They are HIS animals and HIS enclosures which make it HIS business. You don't have to like it, and i'm sure the last time he checked he didn't answer to any of us. This thread will continue until everyone just gets tired of it.