Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

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Originally Posted by zeion97

You say as a last resort? Why? Why honestly? Because you don't like it, well that's your opinion.. But you don't need to argue and pick apart peoples responses so you can try to convert someone or in turn make them look bad. I feed live, so what's the problem? I do it carefully and I don't smack the poor rodent against a rock to stun it.

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No, not because I dislike it... because it's an unnecessary risk to the snake and it's arguably unnecessarily cruel. If your snake will refuse to eat a dead animal, well you're not going to let it starve... that'd be much more cruel. This is why I made the concession.

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This was a question thread, not a thread to try to convert everyone to F/T, or whatever someone sees fit. If you don't like the fact some of us feed live, well I really don't know what to tell you..

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Oh so I can't say my own opinion, even if it's contrary to some on here? I thought this was a "friendly" forum... :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to convert anyone, I am discussing the issue of ethics here. Which is entirely relevant when feeding a live, concious mammal to another animal.

It's not that I don't like the fact that people feed live, it's some of the reasons. "Because I like to see my snake kill things" - sadistic much? That's a legitimate reason?? What if I said I fed live snakes to my pet mongooses because "I enjoyed watching them kill things"? Would you like that? Of course you wouldn't... because it's completely disgusting and inappropriate. Using sadism as a reason shouldn't be acceptable. There are legitimate reasons to feed live to snakes, "because I enjoy watching things die" isn't one of them. :/

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Originally Posted by Gavin

No, not because I dislike it... because it's an unnecessary risk to the snake and it's arguably unnecessarily cruel. If your snake will refuse to eat a dead animal, well you're not going to let it starve... that'd be much more cruel. This is why I made the concession.



Oh so I can't say my own opinion, even if it's contrary to some on here? I thought this was a "friendly" forum... :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to convert anyone, I am discussing the issue of ethics here. Which is entirely relevant when feeding a live, concious mammal to another animal.

It's not that I don't like the fact that people feed live, it's some of the reasons. "Because I like to see my snake kill things" - sadistic much? That's a legitimate reason?? What if I said I fed live snakes to my pet mongooses because "I enjoyed watching them kill things"? Would you like that? Of course you wouldn't... because it's completely disgusting and inappropriate. Using sadism as a reason shouldn't be acceptable. There are legitimate reasons to feed live to snakes, "because I enjoy watching things die" isn't one of them. :/

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Don't try to turn my own words against me, and to add to it you did a horrible job at that.

What I said, you don't need to pick it all apart, you're entitled to your opinion. BUT, you do NOT need to force it on us or take apart our phrases. :rolleyes:

You're entitled to your opinion, have at it. But don't place your opinion above ours because you think it isn't right.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

Don't try to turn my own words against me, and to add to it you did a horrible job at that.

What I said, you don't need to pick it all apart, you're entitled to your opinion. BUT, you do NOT need to force it on us or take apart our phrases. :rolleyes:

You're entitled to your opinion, have at it. But don't place your opinion above ours because you think it isn't right.

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I'm not forcing it on any one. I was having a good discussion with WingedWolfPsion in fact... and "take apart" ? If I see a statement I feel needs responding to then I will respond to it, after all it's directed to me. Should I ignore it??

Opinions are fine and all, but I do not take too kindly to malicious people. That includes people who give snake owners a bad name. And I will say that, whether you like it or not. Do you really think it's good for people to start saying they convert f/t to live and smile about it as if they're genuinely satisfied with it? And say they feed live because they like to see things die? No, it isn't good at all because it will give the impression that snake owners are sadistic. And all those videos on YT where snake owners are laughing and egging the snake own... what about that? That's not a really good reflection of the community, opinion or no opinion!

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I'm not forcing it on any one. I was having a good discussion with WingedWolfPsion in fact... and "take apart" ? If I see a statement I feel needs responding to then I will respond with it, after all it's directed to me. Should I ignore it??

Opinions are fine and all, but I do not take too kindly to malicious people. And I will say that, whether you like it or not.

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lol.. I stand by what I said first. You just can't let yourself look bad. :rolleyes:

And yes, you should. Why, it's there opinion. As long as it isn't inhumane it shouldn't be yours to worry about.

Feeding live is part of having a pet. Like I said, if you don't like then I don't know what to tell you.

You can try to twist my words and make me look bad all you want, it doesn't bother me, but I won't feed you any more..lol

Another double post.. Wow. I apologize. Internet is being odd tonight.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

And yes, you should. Why, it's there opinion. As long as it isn't inhumane it shouldn't be yours to worry about.

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Yeah, because feeding something live to a snake because the person likes to watch things die isn't inhumane. Good one. I've noticed you've completely ignored the issue of people live feeding and posting it on YT for giggles. Yes, definitely not inhumane there. :rolleyes:

You seem to be falling back on the "it's their opinion" line. That's not an excuse for the behaviour I listed.

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Feeding live is part of having a pet. Like I said, if you don't like then I don't know what to tell you.

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And being all sadistic about is part of having a pet too I suppose? :rolleyes:

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You can try to twist my words and make me look bad all you want, it doesn't bother me, but I won't feed you any more..lol

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I don't need to, because you're completely missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Yeah, because feeding something live to a snake because the person likes to watch things die isn't inhumane. Good one. I've noticed you've completely ignored the issue of people live feeding and posting it on YT for giggles. Yes, definitely not inhumane there. :rolleyes:

You seem to be falling back on the "it's their opinion" line. That's not an excuse for the behaviour I listed.



And being all sadistic about is part of having a pet too I suppose? :rolleyes:



I don't need to, because you're completely missing the point.

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No, no, no. I am not. You just want to make it look like it. I really don't know what you won't let it die... You keep going back to all this stuff on youtube, BUT you are talking about us. Oh yeah, I throw a live rat in and watch my Burmese kill it and laugh. Yeah you know me so well.. :rolleyes:

Why am I feeding you..? It's funny to be honest... You act like you're going somewhere but you're not.

And please, for me. Point out where I said the people on youtube were right for feeding for fun? Come on, give me some proof to that, until then i'll laugh it up some more.

Now I have more important things then this. If you want to keep posting your opinions and tell everyone it isn't right to feed live, go at it, but don't attack someone straight up like you first did.

Regards, and thanks for the laughs. :) :rofl:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

No, no, no. I am not. You just want to make it look like it. I really don't know what you won't let it die... You keep going back to all this stuff on youtube, BUT you are talking about us. Oh yeah, I throw a live rat in and watch my Burmese kill it and laugh. Yeah you know me so well.. :rolleyes:

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Please quote me where I said any one here as done such things. Specifically you.

For the record, I was bagging that one guy who said he feeds live because he enjoys watching his snake kill. That's being sadistic.

Using strawman arguments usually happens because people either can't comprehend what was written, or didn't read what was written. I've been very clear on this. If you're either not going to read or continue to misinterpret me then that's your problem, not mine.

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And please, for me. Point out where I said the people on youtube were right for feeding for fun? Come on, give me some proof to that, until then i'll laugh it up some more.

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Why should I give proof to something I have never accused you of doing? :confused:

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Now I have more important things then this. If you want to keep posting your opinions and tell everyone it isn't right to feed live, go at it, but don't attack someone straight up like you first did.

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I'll attack them because they're being an idiot. Converting f/t to eat only live is an idiotic thing to do, and is generally careless towards both the animal's welfare. If the snake eats f/t, why convert it to live? So they can enjoy watching their animal kill something? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live :D

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This was the post in question.

There's no wisdom or sense in doing this. In fact, this person seems to revel in it... which tells me there's an ulterior motive apart from simply "just feeding my snake". And you wonder why a lot of people label snake owners as sickos.

I believe I've already addressed the idea of it being cruel to rodents, and the time involved would be several hours. So, how about not being overly worried about the rodents, which have a reasonably quick and humane death, and not being overly worried about the snakes, which rarely take any injury from their prey...with the bonus that time is saved. The snakes also get fresh, healthy food.

I think your argument against live feeding would be like forcing your dog to wear shoes all the time because he might get a scratch on his pad. That would be minimizing his risk of injury as much as possible, lol.

My rats are more cruel to each when the occasional fight breaks out, than the snakes are to them. You can't keep the rats apart because of it, because that would be cruel as well, and predicting such fights isn't possible.

There's no end to the amount of discomfort in the world...but there is a limit to how much you need to be concerned about it.

Feed FT if you prefer, it's often more convenient and cheaper if you do not have local source for live rodents for the same price. If you are a breeder, however, you're going to have to feed live at some point, because many baby balls simply won't start on dead food. Your FT rodents came from a facility where rats occasionally killed each other messily. Just letting you know.

I don't agree with the practice of posting videos of feeding live animals to pets on YouTube, but I wouldn't call the human reaction to watching predation 'sadism'.
It's not sadism. Humans are predators, and when they watch these things happen, they identify with the predator--it excites their instincts, and there is nothing at all strange about that, or wrong with it. It is a natural reaction. It's the reason why chase and kill scenes are included in documentaries about predators--people get a thrill from it.
It's not the suffering of the prey that creates this reaction, it's the empathy for the hunter.

Nature is nature... When you have multiple ball pythons and breed them, you will have to feed something live at some point.

Me?? I only feed live up to a certain age. Once baby snakes are large enough to eat rat weans, they get prekilled. Still fresh. No F/T.

I agree wholeheartedly with the post before me by the way..

Breeding my own has gotten annoying as I must keep them in my house. Part of the reason I've gravitated away from balls and find myself going back to my first love of the larger species.. Plus they actually eat... Every time.. No matter what's offered..

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I believe I've already addressed the idea of it being cruel to rodents, and the time involved would be several hours. So, how about not being overly worried about the rodents, which have a reasonably quick and humane death, and not being overly worried about the snakes, which rarely take any injury from their prey...with the bonus that time is saved. The snakes also get fresh, healthy food.

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Well no, you didn't really address the fact that you're inducing terror to the animal and the pain it experiences from a snake killing it. Considering pre-killed is kinder to the animal in that respect, I don't think your cruelty argument has a leg to stand on. Especially considering the reference to people doing it because they like to see other things suffer. That in itself, is cruel.

TBH, I'm more worried about the mental state of people who do it for kicks.

By the way, I can't really buy the convenience excuse when f/t is not really that hard to do and arguably even easier because you have to supervise a live feeding whereas with pre-killed you drop it in with the snake and can use the time doing something else.

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I think your argument against live feeding would be like forcing your dog to wear shoes all the time because he might get a scratch on his pad. That would be minimizing his risk of injury as much as possible, lol.

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Not really. There have been many, many documented cases of mice or rats giving nasty injuries to snakes. Unless you allow a dog to step all over sharp, broken glass, then comparing the two is a pretty big stretch.

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My rats are more cruel to each when the occasional fight breaks out, than the snakes are to them. You can't keep the rats apart because of it, because that would be cruel as well, and predicting such fights isn't possible.

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Playfighting or showing dominance is more cruel? How so? If they're fighting to the death, then you'd have to separate them.

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There's no end to the amount of discomfort in the world...but there is a limit to how much you need to be concerned about it.

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So why should that stop me from being concerned about particular YT videos, or people simply feeding live simply because they enjoy it?

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Your FT rodents came from a facility where rats occasionally killed each other messily. Just letting you know.

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Which I have absolutely no way of knowing or preventing, thus it is not relevant.

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I don't agree with the practice of posting videos of feeding live animals to pets on YouTube, but I wouldn't call the human reaction to watching predation 'sadism'.

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Deriving pleasure from the pain of another is textboox sadism.

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It's not sadism. Humans are predators, and when they watch these things happen, they identify with the predator--it excites their instincts, and there is nothing at all strange about that, or wrong with it. It is a natural reaction.

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Natural to a child, maybe. But to an adult that can understand what context means? Right.

As human beings we have higher cognitive functions, know right from wrong, etc. We aren't wild animals, we're animals intelligent enough to recognise the suffering of others. Putting one animal into a situation where it will most likely suffer and chuckle about its pain and death is called "being sick in the head". It seems to me you're trying to justify this behaviour under the guise of it being "natural". Perhaps we're on the same level as all the other animals then? No, I don't think so. You know what else is natural? Rape. Happens all the time in the wild, animals can't control their urges and there you go.

Doesn't mean it isn't sadistic for the rapist to enjoy doing what they do. And it doesn't mean it isn't wrong either.

Tell me, if I threw a snake to a small space with a larger, carnivorous animal, filmed it and laughed as it was ripped to pieces... I suppose there's nothing wrong with that too? It's "natural", after all.

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It's the reason why chase and kill scenes are included in documentaries about predators--people get a thrill from it.
It's not the suffering of the prey that creates this reaction, it's the empathy for the hunter.

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Thrill of the hunt != thrill from seeing something cry out in pain. What empathy for the hunter? What are you talking about?

Making comparisons of thrilling predatory chases in the wild to intentionally creating a situation to make another animal suffer, and laughing about it is not even comparable. Not even in the slightest bit. You're using a naturalistic fallacy here, suggesting that just because something might be natural means it isn't wrong. Well, if you think causing animals pain and filming it for laughs isn't ethically objectionable in the least then I'm going to really have to question the premise of that.

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which rarely take any injury from their prey

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Yet hundreds of pet snakes are killed every year by rodents. If not from infections from bites, especially bites to the eyes, then diseases from mites that could have been easily prevented by freezing and thawing a pre-killed rodent. And why almost every single care sheet and private breeding organization that sells snakes tells owners it's far safer for the animal to feed pre-killed. Feeding live is also illegal in many countries, and the snake pet trade is just fine. Just for fun, here's a picture of a juvenile ball python that was killed and then partially eaten by a mouse. Not even a rat, a mouse.

Even watching it won't change a quick bite to the eye. Human reaction time just isn't fast enough, nor will you be able to predict it. Picky eaters or no, even a large corporate chain like PetCo has all of their snakes on frozen/thawed from pinkes through fuzzies and hoppers and adults.

Feeding live mice, rats, rabbits, etc. on up to captive predatory animals is unnecessary. Whatever vague 'enrichment' you give the animal should be tempered by the needless suffering of the prey item. There's also practical reasons not to do it. Captive bred animals are not wild and prey can fight back. And I have seen snakes, even big snakes, killed by careless owners who drop a rat in and walk away. Rodents and birds used as prey items can carry ticks and other parasites which freezing gets rid of.

Here is a major snake forum detailing what a live animal can do to a snake. If you really think there is minimal risk to the snake, then you are severely misinformed and are just trying to find excuses. This is why I think that live feeding, if the snake can be fed f/t is highly irresponsible and arguably unnecessarily cruel. Now, I've read some previous posts on this site, and I have found that many people here see feeder animals as "objects" rather than living things. That is quite concerning, and further illustrates the point that if people see feeders as inanimate objects, then they should not even be owning such animals or pets dependant on them. Your snakes might be priority #1 here, but even feeder animals deserve respect. After all, they've giving up their lives for your pet's benefit. And yet I see people here treat them like rubbish and like objects. If that is their "opinion" on such animals, then I say "stuff these brutes, they can shove it".

Gavin you are doing the same thing missy king did. Most people on this site will agree that if you have a snake eating F/T and you are a pet owner with a hand full of snakes then great F/T is great. The problem is that you are demonizing feeding live. Feeding live makes a lot of sense for those of us who have problem eaters. I am not going to pre-kill a rodent just to throw it away. Yes I know I can freeze it, but as I have said I will only freeze once and my snake can go months without eating. Having one rodent die a slightly more painful death is, in my opinion, more humane than killing 2 painlessly. There are people who do things because they like being cruel. Ok granted. You aren't going to get through to them and by lumping me in with them you taint the conversation. Most people on this forum are concerned with the health and well being of our snakes and the pain we inflict on feeders to keep our snakes healthy. That being said the feeders I raise have much less pain in my care than they would in the wild. They live longer, they are healthier and they die with less pain. I am happy when I hear the squeek of a rodent being constricted. Not because I am a sadist. I am happy for the same reason I will be happy when I hear the cry of my child getting immunized. I know that pain and death are part of life and that rodent has to die for my snake to live. Whether it dies under questionable conditions in a rodent raising business and is shipped to me frozen, or gets constricted in front of me, its death is necessary. We are sitting here quibbling over how. I assure you that if I have the option to die in a gas chamber, have my spine severed or get eaten by a lion. I am not going to take any great solace in the least painful option. I am going to be really upset regardless, and how dare someone feel better about themselves for having spared me the lion only to severe my spine.

Oh and Gavin, don't get me wrong I agree with much of what you are saying. My only point is that not all feeding live is the same, or done for poor reasons. Not all snake species are the same and an argument for one species doesn't necessarily hold for a BP. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the "suffering" of the rodents. Not that I think there isn't an element of pain involved. I just feel that the suffering in the animals life must be taken into account as well as the pain in an alternate death. I consider the last minute of an animals life far less important than the life leading up to that and far less grave than the fact that I am facilitating its death.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

The problem is that you are demonizing feeding live.

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Not necessarily. I did mention that if it's a last resort thing, I'm fine with it. But I would say feeding live just for entertainment is a pretty demonic thing to do!

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There are people who do things because they like being cruel. Ok granted. You aren't going to get through to them and by lumping me in with them you taint the conversation.

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Some people are just generally ignorant, with the facts presented, it might. But that matters not, the criticism against such people is warranted. And as I said... genuine reasons such as with people like you, I have no beef with. It's only those who "do it for the lulz" or use weak excuses (like it's 'inconvenient').

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I am happy when I hear the squeek of a rodent being constricted. Not because I am a sadist. I am happy for the same reason I will be happy when I hear the cry of my child getting immunized. I know that pain and death are part of life and that rodent has to die for my snake to live. Whether it dies under questionable conditions in a rodent raising business and is shipped to me frozen, or gets constricted in front of me, its death is necessary.

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And I understand that! Which is why it's not directed to folks such as yourself.

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I think you are placing too much emphasis on the "suffering" of the rodents.

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Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.

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I consider the last minute of an animals life far less important than the life leading up to that and far less grave than the fact that I am facilitating its death.

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Fair enough, but the method of death should still be considered! This is why, for example, I use a snap trap if I have a mouse problem, and never a glue trap (these torture traps rile me up even more, but that's a topic for another day).

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Not necessarily. I did mention that if it's a last resort thing, I'm fine with it. But I would say feeding live just for entertainment is a pretty demonic thing to do!

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There you go, doing it again. There are reasons between last resort and entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Some people are just generally ignorant, with the facts presented, it might. But that matters not, the criticism against such people is warranted. And as I said... genuine reasons such as with people like you, I have no beef with. It's only those who "do it for the lulz" or use weak excuses (like it's 'inconvenient').

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I don't consider inconvenient to be a week excuse. Depending on the person it can be a perfectly logical reason. I am fine with criticizing the "do it for the lulz" people. I just think you need to be careful you don't cross into lumping the good guys that would otherwise agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

And I understand that! Which is why it's not directed to folks such as yourself.

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Thank you. I felt that your comments were in some ways critical of me and people like me. That's all I wanted to point out.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.

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You are using words like unnecessary and cruelty and they are sorrily very subjective. What you consider unnecessarily cruel others might not. I don't necessarily accept your assertion that feeding live is unnecessarily cruel. We all agree that the rodent feels pain and we all know its going to die. As long as a person is not feeding live specifically because its more painful to the rodent I don't find it cruel. Casually indifferent to its pain? Sure, but not cruel. Again my rodents feel much less pain in total with me than they would in the wild and I would argue less pain than they would if raised by someone who cared less or was looking to make money on thier life. You may not feel that makes up for the last minute of pain in their life but I do.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Fair enough, but the method of death should still be considered! This is why, for example, I use a snap trap if I have a mouse problem, and never a glue trap (these torture traps rile me up even more, but that's a topic for another day).

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I think that's a very valid point that I agree with 100%. Its not analogous though. The death by BP is not even close to a glue trap. I feed appropriately sized rodents and my BP dispatches them very quickly. If my BP was a worse hunter like my king snake was, I would have had to reconsider. For every callous keeper on this forum there many more who really care. I think your message would be better intended if maybe worse received by the average Ball Python keeper than by the members of this forum. The average person on this forum is here because they care enough to put in the time to learn about the many aspects of husbandry. I am all for extolling the virtues of F/T or pre-killed but people can ruin that too. They can feed partially frozen prey. They can buy from sources that don't freeze fresh or who kill their rodents inhumanly. They can cook the rodent in boiling water. They can lay a wet F/T rodent on substrate which can result in impaction in extreme cases. Far better that we find out the what people are doing and why and attack the problems not the action.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.

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To clarify I know what cruel means in a dictionary definition. I think that those of us who have a hobby that requires animals to die and/or those of us who are not vegetarians should not use cruel as defined "causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain." By that definition we are cruel for eating meat, and cruel for keeping a carnivore as a pet. I feel like you are trying to use it defined as "unrelieved by leniency." And to the extent that I agree with you I agree with this definition. The problem is that what might be cruel to a rodent at a given point must be weighed against the well being of the snake, the other rodents, and most importantly the feeders quality of life leading up to that last minute. I prefer to use the definition "disposed to inflict pain or suffering : devoid of humane feelings" and in that regard most people on this forum are not cruel and non are cruel simply because they feed live.

There are pros and cons to feeding live, p/k, and f/t, and there is nothing wrong with any one of them.
It is not a "right or wrong way of doing things" topic.

A thread like this is useful as long as we share the pros and cons of each option, our own experiences with each method, and maybe even our reason why the method(s) we use work best for us as an individual keeper, and why.

That way anyone reading this thread, or a similar thread, can take all of that information and form their own opinion, and then see what works best for themselves.

Once you start judging others for having a different opinion and approach to keeping and maintaining their own collection, whether it is done due to having a different opinion, simply out of convenience, or even as a source of entertainment, you are detracting from the usefulness of your post, the thread itself, and also the friendliness of the friendliest online community for ALL of your herping needs !

This post itself is very much towing the line.
:rolleyes:

I agree with alot that has been said thus far. Something that I would like to pint out though is, whether people get a kick out of their ball hunting and eating or not is actually irrelevant. If you feed live the same thing is going to happen. So what if you watch and like it. The animal will be dispatched in the same method. Personally to me those people are just enjoying their pet. Yes another animal dies. But it's feeding their animals. Now... I saw this before and I Said it then as well. I feed live out of conveinence... Yes. Mostly because I'm not going to thaw out 10 rats and feed another 50 live ones. That just isn't going to work. So I feed 60 something live ones and get through my feeding routine without all the craziness. That doesn't mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean that I'm cruel or anything else. It means I have a large collection and I do best for that collection with my lifestyle. I have not had any sort of injury to my collection from feeding live in over 2 years. And even then it was a little scratch that healed quickly. A day or two later you couldn't even see it. How do I know? Well because I specifically have a procedure for feeding my balls. And everyone is well watched and any feeding notes are well documented. Not every ball is ok with pk or ft. I know that if you came to my house and thawed 65 rats and went and placed one in each tub maybe 3 would eat. Then if you took the other 62 that didn't and played the rat zombie game feeding would take 2-4 hours. Again, would you do that weekly? When you have other responsibilities like cleaning cages rat/ball/ or otherwise? How about when you have to feed 200 other animals? For me it's Give and take. The welfare for everyone in a whole is most important to me. Cleaned, watered, fed is a daily thing for some of my Herps. Weather you agree or not is unimportant. But try not to group folks with being lazy or sadistic

You can give your ball pythons parasites from ft. I don't know if you know that. It does happen. Just as injury and deaths happen from ft as well. Too hot, or too cold and your ball goes into shock and could die. Accidentally cooking or bad rodents etc and your ball could die.

What I do know Is I breed my own rats. They are healthy, parasite free and kept in immaculate conditions. You should see some rodent breeding operations that breed to provide ft. I'm sure some of them aren't the most pleasant conditions for the rats. I'm sure even some of them are inhumane.
Freezing doesn't kill all parasites. I beleive there's a few members here who's balls are being treated or have been treated for tape worm and they were only fed ft.

So like I have said before there are many pros and cons to each way. Just because you feed live because its more convenient, or you like to watch your snake eat, doesn't make it worse or cruel to the rats or anything like that. If people were sticking live rats in tubs letting the snake constrict it and then taking the rat away and lettin the snake do it over and over again I would consider that cruel. But them again we all have our own opinions.
Btw fwiw yes rodents and other live prey can kill snakes. Many of those situations like the picture you captioned Gavin, is from days or weeks of a rodent being left in a closed off area with the snake no food no water. So yes their instinct tell them how to survive. But that isn't the normal, and you won't find one person in here anyways that just throws rodents in tubs or cages and walks away and that's the end of it. Every technique has its own procedure. You follow that and you'll really Hve no issues. You don't and either way can kill your snake.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Egapal

There you go, doing it again. There are reasons between last resort and entertainment.

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I don't agree with them.

If your snake can feed on f/t, then what reason is there to feed live?

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I don't consider inconvenient to be a week excuse. Depending on the person it can be a perfectly logical reason.

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I don't consider being lazy or being indifferent to the feeder's welfare as logical. Saying something like "oh who cares if it suffers" is pretty weak.

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You are using words like unnecessary and cruelty and they are sorrily very subjective. What you consider unnecessarily cruel others might not. I don't necessarily accept your assertion that feeding live is unnecessarily cruel.

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Well that's the beauty of discussion, isn't it? It all depends on context, really.

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I think that's a very valid point that I agree with 100%. Its not analogous though. The death by BP is not even close to a glue trap.

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Wasn't really supposed to be analogous, the principle behind it is the same however.

As for the rest of your post, fair enough. I have nothing really to argue there.

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

Something that I would like to pint out though is, whether people get a kick out of their ball hunting and eating or not is actually irrelevant. If you feed live the same thing is going to happen. So what if you watch and like it. The animal will be dispatched in the same method.

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Are you saying intent means nothing? No way, it means a hell of a lot. It is the crossing line between what is abject animal cruelty and what isn't.

If someone had the intention feeding live purely on the basis that they get their jollies out of it, then they should not be doing it. In fact... they should not even be owning pets if they enjoy causing and watching other animals suffer. Whether the same thing happens to the mouse or not isn't really the issue, it's if the person has malicious intent. And you're saying that doesn't matter because the mouse dies anyway??

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Weather you agree or not is unimportant. But try not to group folks with being lazy or sadistic

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Sorry, but if people like to watch other animals in pain then they're being sadistic. I can't really explain this any more easier.

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You can give your ball pythons parasites from ft. I don't know if you know that. It does happen. Just as injury and deaths happen from ft as well. Too hot, or too cold and your ball goes into shock and could die. Accidentally cooking or bad rodents etc and your ball could die.

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I'd like to know what kind of parasite can survive the freezing process. The latter can easily be controlled - can you say the same for a live, unpredictable animal?

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Just because you feed live because its more convenient, or you like to watch your snake eat, doesn't make it worse or cruel to the rats or anything like that.

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Of course it makes it worse.

If you're killing them for pleasure, that indicates a malicious mindset. Wanting to cause pain to another animal and getting pleasure from it is far worse than not getting pleasure from it and being indifferent.

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Many of those situations like the picture you captioned Gavin, is from days or weeks of a rodent being left in a closed off area with the snake no food no water.

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I'd recommend taking a look at the forum thread I linked. Those instances were not "days or weeks"... a mouse has sharp enough teeth to take out an eye. In an instant. It has happened before. Just because it never happened with you doesn't mean it never will, and doesn't mean it is not an unnecessary risk.

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Every technique has its own procedure. You follow that and you'll really Hve no issues. You don't and either way can kill your snake.

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You can tell that to the people who had to pay expensive vet bills because a rat or mouse struck and took out an eye, or left a deep wound that would become infected.

And this is exactly why I don't buy any of these "convenience issues". Doing it for entertainment is flat out disgusting and should not be encouraged. If your snake is perfectly capable of taking f/t, then there's really no justification to feed it live unless you think a minute convenience outweighs the danger to the snake (and the suffering of the prey animal).

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I don't consider being lazy or being indifferent to the feeder's welfare as logical. Saying something like "oh who cares if it suffers" is pretty weak.

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Why would death by ball python constriction be considered "suffering" if death by being locked in a freezer would'nt be considered "suffering"?

Who locks their rodents in a freezer to kill them?! I would consider that suffering as well. The rodents we have were killed either by gassing or spinal separation.

We've had the occasional rat that 'just wouldn't give up', and it's heartbreaking to watch. Especially when the snake just didn't get the best grip on the rodent and it kills it in a weird and long lasting way. We even had a rodent...well..it's guts shot out. Alive. I definitely cried that night, it was awful. Usually it's 'quick', but often times the times when we think the rodent is dead it's still alive, just knocked out of has given up. Not fun to see what you thought was dead have one last two or three kicks much later on. I can understand feeling bad for the rodent. Honestly, the fact that Maru won't take f/t reliably drives me nuts, and it's kind of preventing me from wanting ball pythons in the future, due to their notorious nature for not accepting f/t prey.

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I feed live out of conveinence... Yes. Mostly because I'm not going to thaw out 10 rats and feed another 50 live ones. That just isn't going to work. So I feed 60 something live ones and get through my feeding routine without all the craziness.

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What is so crazy about thawing mice and simply just giving them to your snake?

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That doesn't mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean that I'm cruel or anything else. It means I have a large collection and I do best for that collection with my lifestyle. I have not had any sort of injury to my collection from feeding live in over 2 years. And even then it was a little scratch that healed quickly. A day or two later you couldn't even see it. How do I know? Well because I specifically have a procedure for feeding my balls. And everyone is well watched and any feeding notes are well documented. Not every ball is ok with pk or ft. I know that if you came to my house and thawed 65 rats and went and placed one in each tub maybe 3 would eat. Then if you took the other 62 that didn't and played the rat zombie game feeding would take 2-4 hours. Again, would you do that weekly? When you have other responsibilities like cleaning cages rat/ball/ or otherwise? How about when you have to feed 200 other animals?

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If your time is so important to you than perhaps you should either get a couple of assistants to help you, or not keep so many reptiles? You say you watch them during the live feeding process... would that not take just as much time too? Have you even tried giving them f/t or just simply dumped in a live animal because you couldn't be bothered thawing them? Have you tried converting them? Of course it's going to take time and patience... you own many reptiles for heaven's sake. What happens if one of the animals gets in a bite and it's a deep one? What then? 2-4 hours is nothing on a per week basis, especially with so many pets that you are responsible for.

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Originally Posted by SkYyame

Why would death by ball python constriction be considered "suffering" if death by being locked in a freezer would'nt be considered "suffering"?

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What?

Putting a live mammal in the freezer is not humane in the slightest, whoever is doing that is possibly breaking the law. No respectable vet, breeder, snake enthusiast or otherwise would even do or entertain the thought of such a thing. I don't know where you're getting this information from.

Cervical dislocation and CO2 are the methods used which are approved by vets and animal laboratories the world over. Whoever chucks them alive in a freezer is just committing animal cruelty.

...*sighs*

That's all I can say besides..

*grabs popcorn*

As I state when i tech.. "I can teach everything I know about cooking, But I can not make you learn"

Regardless, you yourself see your opinion as better then ours. So to be honest? WHY do you care so much that we feed live? I'm not going to convert to F/T to please you.

And earlier since Jerry never said anything, you know that person you called stupid? I'd take his advice over almost anyone I know. Why? He knows his stuff. :\

So really, stop bashing our opinions, and accept that we do don't do what you like.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

We've had the occasional rat that 'just wouldn't give up', and it's heartbreaking to watch. Especially when the snake just didn't get the best grip on the rodent and it kills it in a weird and long lasting way. We even had a rodent...well..it's guts shot out. Alive. I definitely cried that night, it was awful.

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And to think people get entertained by this sort of thing. There were even a couple of people on here trying to rationalise such 'entertainment' because "they enjoyed watching their pets" or "it's their opinion". Stuff like this is on YT with laughing idiots in the background... I can't believe someone tried to pass that off as not being "sadistic", but "natural". Dear lord.

That we can sympathise with the rat is, IMO, what makes us human really. What separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. Empathy is a good quality to have. Kudos to you my friend.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

And to think people get entertained by this sort of thing. There were even a couple of people on here trying to rationalise such 'entertainment' because "they enjoyed watching their pets" or "it's their opinion". Stuff like this is on YT with laughing idiots in the background... I can't believe someone tried to pass that off as not being "sadistic", but "natural".

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Having read this thread, i can't recall anyone they saying they feed live for kicks...so i think you're preaching to the wrong choir. Your vendetta may be better carried out commenting on YouTube than it is here.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

Regardless, you yourself see your opinion as better then ours. So to be honest? WHY do you care so much that we feed live? I'm not going to convert to F/T to please you.

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Ok, I'm only going to say this once: shut up.

I was having a good discussion with a couple of members here, then you sprout up with this strawman. I never, ever stated that my opinion is better than any one else's. Why do I care? Because I'm a human being that dislikes pointless suffering in a controlled situation, and dislikes putting pets at risk.

If my sympathy for feeder animals and disdain to some of the reasons of live feeding offends you... or you think that somehow makes me self-righteous... then grow up. Really.

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And earlier since Jerry never said anything, you know that person you called stupid? I'd take his advice over almost anyone I know. Why? He knows his stuff. :\

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Never said anything? I've given you the quote as to why I called him an idiot. I don't care if he's friggen Einstein, that comment had a hint of malice about it. Converting f/t to live... why? What reason would you do this for? It makes zero sense and it was idiotic... sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for you.

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So really, stop bashing our opinions, and accept that we do don't do what you like.

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You've contributed absolutely nothing in terms of a retort - instead taking potshots. I actually agreed with some of the live feeders on here on particular points. Oh, I accept it fine... that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Or like it for that matter. If such a forthright honesty offends you... well... build a bridge... :cool:

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Having read this thread, i can't recall anyone they saying they feed live for kicks...so i think you're preaching to the wrong choir. Your vendetta may be better carried out commenting on YouTube than it is here.

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Here:

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Originally Posted by blueberrypancakes

I could give you a BS answer and think of some reason that I think live is better for my boy, or steal an answer from a more educated and experienced snake owner... BUT...
For me the honestly for real with facts answer is that I enjoy watching Jackson hunt and kill. Sorry if that offends...

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Boom. Headshot.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Ok, I'm only going to say this one: shut up.

I was having a good discussion with a couple of members here, then you sprout up with this strawman. I never, ever stated that my opinion is better than any one else's. Why do I care? Because I'm a human being that dislikes pointless suffering in a controlled situation, and dislikes putting pets at risk.

If my sympathy for feeder animals and disdain to some of the reasons of live feeding offends you... or you think that somehow makes me self-righteous... then grow up. Really.



Never said anything? I've given you the quote as to why I called him an idiot. I don't care if he's friggen Einstein, that comment had a hint of malice about it. Converting f/t to live... why? What reason would you do this for? It makes zero sense and it was idiotic... sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for you.



You've contributed absolutely nothing in terms of a retort - instead taking potshots. I actually agreed with some of the live feeders on here on particular points. Oh, I accept it fine... that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Or like it for that matter. If such a forthright honesty offends you... well... build a bridge... :cool:

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Me take potshots, never. And please, keep it civil. You just don't like the fact unlike other people I call you out. I can't stand people who do what you're doing. You never stated your opinion is above ours yes, BUT you keep arguing trying to make our opinions look bad. :rolleyes:

Now to you, I'm going to go feed my snakes some nice plump live rats. :P

You can moan all you want, you can throw a hissy fit, but seriously, stop taking peoples post apart and grow up and accept it. I never stated I feed live for pleasure and I read this ENTIRE thread and saw no one do it either. You are the one using a "straw-man" defense as you like to call it.

I accept the fact you don't like us using live, that's YOUR opinion, but don't preach to us about how it's bad. You're just resembling someone else. :rolleyes:

Oh.. and I wouldn't say the conversation you've been having with everyone else was good.. Unless you call preaching good. But that's your opinion. As stated..

Oh yeah. I KNOW you stated the quote Jerry made. YOU didn't read what I said, I said "he never said anything" You know, to defend himself. But you had to jump on that horse and start whipping it. :rolleyes:

So what? He converted a few to live. I converted 1 myself. Do I have sympathy? Of course not, why? Because I have 1 that eats F/T, so why should I keep him on it, when my rest eat live?

You can preach and preach all you want, but I don't SUGARCOAT either, You got your opinion, and I have mine.

So like I said. Deal with it. :) I mean seriously, it's not like 90% of the stuff you're saying hasn't been brought up in this thread already. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gavin

What is so crazy about thawing mice and simply just giving them to your snake?

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Gavin, again it's not just thawing mice out and giving it to a snake. Like I said if you took 65 rats and thawed them and placed them in each tub. 3 of my snakes would eat them like That. Then you'd take the other 62 snake and do the zombie dance and maybe 1/2 of those would actually eat like that. Then you'd take 30 thawed rats that are left over and trash them. Bc I wouldn't re freeze and go get 30 more live rats and THEN the other 30 snakes would eat. Would you find that acceptable. That those 30 rats died to not be rated and to feed my trash? I don't. I figure if they are going to give their lives well then they should be eaten. I'm not going to feed my trash. That's the craziness I'm talking about. Yes I have tried converting. When I had 10 snakes and it was feasible for me to have that and my schedule. Now I have some that are garbage disbosals and some that only eat live. That's why I breed my rodents bc EVERYONE will eat live.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

If your time is so important to you than perhaps you should either get a couple of assistants to help you, or not keep so many reptiles? You say you watch them during the live feeding process... would that not take just as much time too? Have you even tried giving them f/t or just simply dumped in a live animal because you couldn't be bothered thawing them? Have you tried converting them? Of course it's going to take time and patience... you own many reptiles for heaven's sake. What happens if one of the animals gets in a bite and it's a deep one? What then? 2-4 hours is nothing on a per week basis, especially with so many pets that you are responsible for.

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I do have an assistant that comes to help me. But that's neither here nor there. And I certainly don't need to even entertain your other comment of what I have here at my home or not. And whether is a handlable number for myself. It is. I got it. Don't worry bout that.
Watching them is very easy. I put a rat in and the snake strikes it. I generally don't even have to close the tub. I make sure the rat can't bite and isn't in an awkward position and I move to the next bin. Pretty much it rat- squeal- check- next bin. Easy. It's Just not feasible for me to feed everyone ft. Sorry you don't like that.
If lets say a rat is caught in an weird position I have my hemostats right in my back pocket to prevent bites.
Let's say it does happen and a bite one that I should be concerned about happens. I have the knowledge and medication on hand to treat it myself. If its something that needs vet attn. my reptile vet is on call and will come to my home.
No 2-4 hours in a weekly basis is nothing. If I didn't already have a full time job, and another 10 hours of taking care of my animals bc I look at them as a full time job too. They're my Dayjob and I work nights as well. But you know I think your biased opinion is based on the fact that YOU Don't have a large collection to care for. And for some reason it's seems impossible for you to put yourself in other peoples shoes.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Boom. Headshot.

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Hmmm...not really. So one person in this entire thread said they do it because they enjoy watching it. Take it up with them. Go hit the YouTube comment boards. As others have said, contributing to the discussion is fine and well...forcing the discussion tends to make people care less about what you have to say.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Are you saying intent means nothing? No way, it means a hell of a lot. It is the crossing line between what is abject animal cruelty and what isn't..

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I think intent means alot. If you are just throwing animals to other animals just to kill them yes that's an issue. If you snake needs to eat and you watch it and you happen to enjoy it no. The snake needs to eat.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

If someone had the intention feeding live purely on the basis that they get their jollies out of it, then they should not be doing it. In fact... they should not even be owning pets if they enjoy causing and watching other animals suffer. Whether the same thing happens to the mouse or not isn't really the issue, it's if the person has malicious intent. And you're saying that doesn't matter because the mouse dies anyway??.

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How is it malicious intent if the snake needs to eat. Look I doubt anyone on here is feeding live just to see the snake torture a mouse. And really the prey is dispatched rather quickly. And i also doubt the people on this site are the ones on YT making these snuff films as you call them. Yet though I look at it as nature. You must also not beleive in hunting. I don't like hunting for sport but I do beleive that if an animal is going to give its life that animal should be used for food. It's should Guve back life and purpose. That is the only reason I'm ok with folks having a head of a buck on their wall. My first question is always did you eat it?
The live and ft rats do this. They have purpose.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Sorry, but if people like to watch other animals in pain then they're being sadistic. I can't really explain this any more easier.

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Ya If you like to watch animals in pain that's sadistic. Whom is saying they like that?

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I'd like to know what kind of parasite can survive the freezing process. The latter can easily be controlled - can you say the same for a live, unpredictable animal?

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Tape worm eggs. Also if the prey isn't frozen right I'm sure other parasites can survive as well. But I've read more than 1 thread in this forum. Hint search tape worm. About members whom have only fed frozen some how have tape worms in their balls.
What I can control is the size of the prey. Weanlings- what I feed- haven't really developed the aggressiveness as a jumbo. Weanlings and mediums are more curious than anything. They really have no idea what hits them. But like I said if they do get caught up the wrong way I Hve my hemostats right in my back pocket. Snakes are predators. They aren't stupid. But as a responsible person that cares about my collection I am very aware of what's going on during feedkn time.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Of course it makes it worse.

If you're killing them for pleasure, that indicates a malicious mindset. Wanting to cause pain to another animal and getting pleasure from it is far worse than not getting pleasure from it and being indifferent.



I'd recommend taking a look at the forum thread I linked. Those instances were not "days or weeks"... a mouse has sharp enough teeth to take out an eye. In an instant. It has happened before. Just because it never happened with you doesn't mean it never will, and doesn't mean it is not an unnecessary risk.



You can tell that to the people who had to pay expensive vet bills because a rat or mouse struck and took out an eye, or left a deep wound that would become infected.

And this is exactly why I don't buy any of these "convenience issues". Doing it for entertainment is flat out disgusting and should not be encouraged. If your snake is perfectly capable of taking f/t, then there's really no justification to feed it live unless you think a minute convenience outweighs the danger to the snake (and the suffering of the prey animal).

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Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I think it's a huge mistake to claim that intent is what makes something cruel. That's silly.
Intent is, and always has been, utterly irrelevant. We do not live in a world where 'thought crimes' are valid.
If the animal suffers excessively, then it is cruel. If it does not, then it's not cruel. This isn't about what the human is thinking, it's about what the animal is feeling, and NOTHING else is important.

In a typical situation, the python will grab the animal, which causes a surge of adrenalin. Adrenalin increases heart rate, and dulls pain reception, and dumps endorphins into the animal's system, making the grab less painful. It will then constrict the animal tightly. Within seconds, the rodent loses consciousness, and its ordeal is over. This is a relatively humane way to dispatch a rodent.

I'm not sure where the idea comes that one good scare is a cruel thing. We humans seek out scares deliberately, because they're addictive. That's what amusement parks are all about. It may not be pleasant, but it's not painful, and it's not cruel. It is not an ongoing bout of fear, it's all over with very quickly.

A domesticated rodent placed into a snake bin shows some signs of anxiety and nervousness, but absolutely doesn't show signs of terror. They simply don't have the experience or instincts to truly be frightened, which is why they often walk straight up to the snake and sniff its face.

Is this AS humane as CO2 euthanasia? Probably not...usually, at least. But it is not so horrible as to be considered cruel, either, at least not by me. Honestly, if I were personally given the choice of these methods for my own death, I would choose death by snake. Perhaps your choice would be different.

Occasionally, things don't go perfectly--that's true when slaughtering animals, as well. We do the best we can. In the end, the animal dies, and doesn't take an excessively long time to do so, either way. Whether it's a good hit over with in seconds, or a bad one over with in a minute or two, it's still a short period of time. For me, that's good enough. I don't feel that feeding live is unecessarily cruel.

I also think that if you do not understand why humans identify with predators, and do not understand that humans absolutely do not control their own instincts, that you do not understand human behavior at all. Your use of the example of rape is just absurd. The vast majority of humans do not have any compulsion to commit such acts at all, and that is why they don't do it. The fact that the term exists is enough to prove that the few who do are not controlling their instincts or compulsions.
When I watch a predator/prey interaction, I personally identify with the predator. What the prey is feeling is simply not something that I consider at that moment. I'm capable of it, sure, but it's not where my focus is.
I don't dwell on the pain my food feels, or the pain my pets' food feels, because I don't see much point in doing so.

While snakes are occasionally injured by rodents, the VAST majority of the time, this occurs when a rodent is left unattended with a snake, not when a rodent is introduced to a snake's cage, and removed a few minutes later if it hasn't been eaten. So, I maintain, it's like forcing your dog to wear shoes, to worry about that rare incident where a snake might receive a bad bite from being fed live in a responsible fashion. I have never had a snake injured that way. I have had a few get a nick or scratch, but no worse than I've gotten myself while chopping vegetables. I consider that an acceptable part of being alive.

I also find that the vast majority of my snakes have a stronger feeding response when fed live, which suggests they prefer it. I actually take that into consideration.

On the other hand, if we move away from our reliable local supply of live rodents, I will go back to feeding mainly FT with live being given only to those snakes that won't accept it, because I don't like raising rodents, so prefer to raise as few as possible.

I know you're very attached to the idea that humans are different from other animals, but there is no evidence to suggest that it's true, and there's no reason why they should be held to unrealistic standards of conduct. I'm also not sure how to explain to you what it means to have empathy for predatory behavior, if you can't grasp the idea, but rest assured, your inability to identify with predators is not the norm for human beings.

I have explained to you that rooting for the lion to take down the gazelle has absolutely nothing to do with wanting the gazelle to experience pain, or enjoying its suffering. The reason people like to watch their snakes hunt live prey has nothing to do with sadism in the vast majority of cases. if you do not understand how this can be so, then your empathy is terribly one-sided.

My opinion remains this: It doesn't matter one bit to me, from an ethical standpoint, whether a rodent is killed by someone else, by me, or by my snakes. I do my best to make sure their deaths are as humane as is practical, given that they are going to be eaten. I personally feel that death is death, and a small moment of pain at the moment of death is no worse than a moment of pain at any other time. (People routinely neuter cats and dogs, for example, which involves days of intense pain and weeks of aches, during recovery--it is a very unpleasant procedure for the animal, yet, oddly, we do not consider it cruel. Since more pain is caused by this than by a snake constricting a rat, I consider feeding live to be perfectly fine). I feel no guilt over this.

You are welcome to your opinion, but I do not think your argument is valid enough for me to change my opinion. You're merely looking at it from a different perspective. That's ok, but it doesn't make me wrong, and you right--or vice versa, for that matter.

Everyone has to set their own boundaries, and come to their own conclusions.

Very well said winged wolf


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Gavin.. Your arguments are getting ridiculous... Homegrownscales is absolutely right. There is at least one member here who has a ball that very recently got tapeworms from FT.

Many parasites can NOT be killed by freezing. Eggs can go dormant and can hatch when conditions are right again.

In the last few years, we on here have seen countless photos and heard countless complaints of FT suppliers. Rodents coming in covered in feces, fleas, other parasites.. Smelling badly when thawed because they were allowed to sit dead for too long before freezing. They had begun to rot at the facility. Etc etc..

You have no clue how those rodents have been killed. Were they really gassed??? Because it's cheaper to just throw them all in a huge container in the freezer.. Do you think all these companies, who are in it to make $$, are going to tell you the truth about that?

You also keep forgetting that we are talking about BPs here...

You mentioned pet stores having all theirs on FT. Bull!! I promise you that petsmart and petco have maybe 1 out every 10-15 snakes that actually eats for them. Especially the balls. They usually never eat for them because those babies have either not yet been switched to FT, or they simply have not had their first meal yet and they don't want to take a dead rodent as their first meal.

This is something we have talked about on here many times. We have members on here who work for these stores. They see these things and it bothers them.

As for you saying 100's are injured by live feedings. That is also untrue. Where are these statistics? Many more are injured by being burned. Like was stated earlier, injuries happen if a rodent is left in a tank/tub/cage unattended, and usually for a long period of time. Bites during actual feeding are rare, and when they do happen, are minor. In the years I've been feeding live, I've never had a bite with one exception.. Back in 1996 a large rat bit a Burmese I had just bad enough to need some silver cream applied to it. Granted, that was when I decided to start feeding prekilled once the rats are weaned for most snakes, but I still have a couple picky eaters who require live.

The truth is, almost all of us who breed our own rodents have rats as pets as well. We care for them as much as we do our reptiles, but we understand what we have to do for our reptiles. We do not agree with anyone who feeds live out of pleasure for causing harm or death to another animal. We here are not like that.

If you begin breeding BPs and keeping them in large numbers, having to start new hatchlings, assist feeds on late starters, deal with the changing feeding habits of breeding adults, etc etc... And you insist on adhering to a F/T only rule, it won't be long before you get frustrated with BPs, get rid of them all, and get into boa's, carpet's, burm's, or something else that will agree with you 100% of the time..

I will reply to the rest of it later, as I have some work to do, but this stood out like a sore thumb:

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I think it's a huge mistake to claim that intent is what makes something cruel. That's silly.
Intent is, and always has been, utterly irrelevant. We do not live in a world where 'thought crimes' are valid.

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Intent has never been irrelevant. It is the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.



:rolleyes:

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.



This is exactly the reason why snake owners get a bad rap, because of idiots like you. Why would you want to: a) put your snake at unnecessary risk and b) put the feeder animal through unnecessary suffering? Sounds like a sicko to me.

I guess you're one of those people who see feeder animals as objects, and not living, breathing, feeling creatures. They can feel pain too you know. That's why we have a moral responsibility to minimise suffering where possible. After all, it is giving up its life for your snake... at least be decent about it.

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I feed live feeders to my ferrets as well. It works the same way as you do for snakes.

A - do not feed a feeder that is too large for the ferret. For this reason I do not feed anything larger than a mouse and I certainly do not feed live adult hamsters or asf as these animals are known to be a bit more aggressive.

B - make sure you ferret has the ability to hunt down, dispatch, and eat their prey animal. From the time I put my ferret Twitch into the tub for hunting, it takes her less than 5 seconds to hunt down the mouse and dispatch it. She is quick, efficient and she loves it. The feeder does not suffer. I do not allow my boy ferrets to hunt live prey because they do not have the high prey drive that Twitch does and they would not make quick work of hunting the animal down. I feel the animal would suffer if I allowed the boys to hunt.

I am responsible and knowledgable about ferrets and their feeding. I did a lot of research, talked with a lot of people, and consulted my veterinarian. Currently my ferrets are on a raw diet (raw meat/bones/organs) with one or two whole prey items thrown in during the week. Over the next few months I hope to convert them 100% over to a whole prey diet (rats, mice, hamsters, gerbils, quail, chicks, rabbits, etc).

I am NOT one of those people that film my ferrets or snakes taking down live prey for entertainment value. If I ever film my animals consuming anything it is for educational purposes only (as I hope to mentor others to switching their ferrets, cats, and dogs to a raw/whole prey diet).

People are not "sickos" for feeding live to a snake. You think the rat suffers? Try watching a video on how your hamburger is made, and you tell me which animal suffers more.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

You mentioned pet stores having all theirs on FT. Bull!! I promise you that petsmart and petco have maybe 1 out every 10-15 snakes that actually eats for them. Especially the balls. They usually never eat for them because those babies have either not yet been switched to FT, or they simply have not had their first meal yet and they don't want to take a dead rodent as their first meal.

This is something we have talked about on here many times. We have members on here who work for these stores. They see these things and it bothers them.

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I can vouch for this. I worked at a Petsmart and if you look up my old threads regarding a few of my experiences working there you'll see. I had to bring a corn snake baby back from the brink of starvation. At several months old, this snake weighed only 4g. I was not allowed (by company policy) to feed it live, so I had to stress this snake out by tube feeding it and assist feeding it for months before it finally began eating f/t on its own. Also 75% or more of the ball pythons that came into the store did not accept f/t and a few under my care had to be assist fed because they began to lose a lot of weight.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I will reply to the rest of it later, as I have some work to do, but this stood out like a sore thumb:

Intent has never been irrelevant. It is the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.

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Gavin.... We really aren't discussing
people torturing animals. Nor are we discussing manslaughter and murder. No one on here is malicious or hateful towards animals. No one is feeding live with the intent to torture or maim the prey. We all care very much for the animals we have as well as any that are in our care, such as feeder animals. I feel this representation has no ground in this conversation. If we were talking about people killing animals for pleasure or people killing people.... Then it makes sense.
What this discussion is about is, the difference between live prey and ft prey. Ball pythons along with many other reptiles don't have the intent to torture an animal. They don't have that capability. They are either hungry or not. Just because someone enjoys watching their pet eat/ feeds live out of convenience etc. doesn't mean their intent was to cause pain to either animal. Feeding a snake is no where near a :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: fight or a dog fight even if it's live prey. The snakes don't toy with the prey. The prey isn't automatically freaked out and convulsing in fear. The death is humane, quick and 99% of the time causes no damage to the snake. Yes there are some minor instances where issues can happen but like another member said its no different than us getting a nick or scratch in our daily lives. Yes people can have worse problems. But every single instance of those worse issues was due to keeper error. Prey to large, not watching, leaving prey In tubs or tanks. Etc. Just like if you didn't use ft correctly you can have issues. Obviously the same is correct for live.



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I see this thread keep popping up. I have no time to read all of the replies, however, it sure is getting heated! I must say I'm offended (not literally, but for argument's sake) that some people are saying that people who feed live are heartless, or enjoy watching the prey die, or whatever the argument has been.

I don't have a choice but to feed like to a minimum of one of my snakes. I've tried every single f/t prey item in every single manner and she wants NOTHING to do with it. Live mice, that's all she'll take. I take life very seriously, whether it be a spider, mouse, or human, and I think it's ridiculous to say that people who feed live don't give a crap about their animals. I for one, love my animals, sometimes a little too much. I cried like a girl when my first tarantula died. I pet and talk to every mouse I have to feed off to give it a few good minutes because it serves it's purpose. I have two pet rats! Do I enjoy feeding live? Absolutely not, I'd throw f/t at my snakes any chance I get, but not everyone has that choice.

OP, I simply prefer f/t simply because it's cheaper for me and easier to keep in bulk. I work more than full time, full time mom, and go to school part time. I have over 30 animals I have to care for, I literally don't have the time to breed my own and take care of my own mice or rats. F/t is simply more convenient. However, I do feed live to two of my balls currently. I do what I have to for my pets, and they only want live, so they get live. Period. I supervise every feeding as to avoid injury and have yet to have an issue, other than feeling bad for the mouse.

As I learned more about snakes and the people who keep them, the more comfortable I got about live feeders. I have respect for both sides, and respect their opinions and choices. It's sad that not everyone can think that way. I blame ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

What?

Putting a live mammal in the freezer is not humane in the slightest, whoever is doing that is possibly breaking the law. No respectable vet, breeder, snake enthusiast or otherwise would even do or entertain the thought of such a thing. I don't know where you're getting this information from.

Cervical dislocation and CO2 are the methods used which are approved by vets and animal laboratories the world over. Whoever chucks them alive in a freezer is just committing animal cruelty.

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If you think putting a live mammal into a freezer is not humane, but constriction is, then perhaps you're the one who is cruel.... An animal can take hours to finally die of the cold. Being cold is not comfortable in anyway. It's even painful if it gets too cold or left too long. If you stick your hand in a bag of ice, I can assure you, your hand will start hurting. Death by constriction occurs in a matter of minutes. How can you compare that to death in a freezer, which can take hours?

Also C02 is NOT painless. I work in a laboratory. Hundreds and thousands of Rats and mice are euthanized by CO2 daily. I've seen the light leave the eyes of these animals. Their bright red eyes turn to a dull brown. It's not pleasant. Not at all. Lab rodents are naturally very calm and used to human presence. That is why they are used for lab work. The moment they're put it the CO2 chamber, they panic and act frightened. If you were suffocating, would it be painless? No. If feels like drowning. It's not like CO where, you just fall asleep and die. CO2 is a fast working process that is the most humane for euthanasia. That is why it is approved. Most humane doesn't mean painless. It just means compared to other methods of death, this emits the least suffering.

Most vets don't preform euthanasia with CO2. Maybe if its a poor animal shelter....But most vets do a drug overdosing w/ a intravenous injection. These injections renders an animal unconscious, then the heart goes into cardiac/respiratory arrest.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.

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Ok. I have a few things to address. I'm sure most people don't have pleasure or enjoy watching their rats die. Most people here just put a rat in a tub and move onto another, then come back a few minutes later to check up on the snake to see if it ate. You keep saying that snakes get hurt easily. Those injured snakes probably have irresponsible owners. I feed small and more frequent, than large and less often. So instead of feeding a medium rat every 2 weeks, I feed 2 weanlings/1small small rat twice a week. No harm done to the snake.

Snakes eat live in the wild. I don't see what's so bad with feeding live in captivity. Just because they're captive doesn't mean they're not wild. They're still wild animals, just tame. There's a difference between domestic, wild, tame, feral, etc etc....
Yes there is a risk. But I believe many of us who truly love our animals will know how to avoid or deal with those risks.(i.e feeding smaller and more frequent, than larger prey and less often) As others have said, there are risks with F/T food as well. (And parasite eggs can lay dormant and hatch during the appropriate conditions. So parasites can stem from frozen food. (That's why it's required to cook frozen meat, isn't it?) And as others have stated, if somebody enjoys watching their snake eat live, what does that have to do w/ the actual animal eating? It's not unnatural. The snake is going to eat regardless if the rat is alive or dead. I don't think a lot of people enjoy seeing a rat suffer, however, it's just interesting to see the process of how a snake eats. People don't dislocate their jaws to swallow food bigger than their heads. So it's a unique thing to observe...

Also, eating live happens out in nature. A wild snake isn't going to come across a frozen thawed rat doing the zombie dance. And just because a snake is in captivity doesn't mean everyone should automatically feed f/t. Personally, mine won't eat f/t. But even if they did, I probably would keep feeding live. If f/t works for you, then thats good. But it may not work for others and their lifestyle....The forum is to share ideas, suggestions, and experiences....But no need to start preaching and pushing your ideals on others.


Note: big breeders don't feed f/t. They'll still feed live even though they have many staff and employees who do the feeding...So I don't understand your argument to get more staff....

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Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

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And regarding my ferrets. Yes I threw out 120% out randomly to make a significant point. I'm an animal biologist exotic pre-vet. I've been studying Ferret biology for a long time. Feeding whole prey IS FACTUALLY MORE HEALTHY THAN COMMERCIAL KIBBLE, which is what the majority of America feed's their ferrets.

Ferrets are obligate carnivores, which means they are meant to eat meat -- just meat. Ferrets are not designed to digest grains, fruit, vegetable, or sugars, or fillers such as corn. Grains, fruit, vegetable, sugars, & corn can lead to Insulinoma, one of the most common ferret diseases. Many kibble ingredients are not suitable for ferrets as they contain many of these ingredients. Kibble food also only has between 10-50% protein. How is that sufficient for a ferret when they are obligate carnivores!??! Ferrets in the UK are less prone to diseases found in US ferrets because many people feed whole prey in Europe.

the only nonmeat items ferrets may encounter in their diet would be in the stomach and intestinal tract of their prey, where it is partially digested. Ferrets have a very short GI tract unlike animals that eat more vegetation.

Whole prey provides natural dental care when the ferret gnaws the bones. Many owners report that their whole-prey-fed ferrets have healthier fur, more energy and fewer odors than those who eat processed ferret food. I can vouch for this personally as well

Please read this for further information.
If you need to to cite more sources, just let me know.


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Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets.

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Have you read the whole thread??? I've posted a few times, and one of my posts stated that I feed my ferrets adult mice and weanling rats. So definitely no damage to my ferrets and it's a quick one hit kill to the feeders w/ minimum suffering. Why would I be irresponsible to either animals (rats and ferrets) and put them at risk to injury or unnecessary suffering??? Please read before spouting off something you don't know anything about.

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Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.

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Ferrets are bred to kill vermin and chase rabbits. As a domestic animal, it is their working purpose.

How do you know that I haven't tried tying a mouse on a string to coax interest????You don't know. Well, I have, and my ferrets know the difference. They show ZERO interest in pre-killed prey. Ferrets are not scavengers by nature. Most animals who come across a corpse will not want to associate with it as it could have died from disease, etc etc.

Do you own ferrets? If yes, then I'm sure you will know that they have a short attention span. Serious ADD. They get tired of the same toys and games, as people do. I have a play room dedicated to my ferrets and even they get bored w/ the many toys they have. Providing live-whole prey gives them enrichment to practice what they were bred for. They're always eager to for a live mouse or rat. It stimulates their interest and physical body.

I too have seen 'bathtub hunting' on youtube. Well, you shouldn't judge everyone based on those videos. Everyone has different methods to give their ferrets live prey.

I for one am not feeding my ferrets live prey for 'power' or because I enjoy it. I breed my own feeders. They live like pets in my bedroom. I give them play time out of their cage for their own enrichment. I feed my ferrets live whole prey because IT IS HEALTHIER! I don't plan on spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in vet bills because my ferrets won't get Insulinoma.

Overall, you don't know anything about me or anybody from this thread outside of our word from this forum. So please don't judge, you many be wrong in your assumptions....

Very nicely said satomi325. :)

Apologies for the few grammar/missing words in my previous post. My mind was going to fast...

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Originally Posted by satomi325

If you think putting a live mammal into a freezer is not humane, but constriction is, then perhaps you're the one who is cruel.... An animal can take hours to finally die of the cold. Being cold is not comfortable in anyway. It's even painful if it gets too cold or left too long. If you stick your hand in a bag of ice, I can assure you, your hand will start hurting. Death by constriction occurs in a matter of minutes. How can you compare that to death in a freezer, which can take hours?

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Sorry, that was meant for whoever said freezing was ok... I misread Gavin's response. My mistake.