Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

[Gavin]

Something that I would like to pint out though is, whether people get a kick out of their ball hunting and eating or not is actually irrelevant. If you feed live the same thing is going to happen. So what if you watch and like it. The animal will be dispatched in the same method.

Are you saying intent means nothing? No way, it means a hell of a lot. It is the crossing line between what is abject animal cruelty and what isn't.

If someone had the intention feeding live purely on the basis that they get their jollies out of it, then they should not be doing it. In fact... they should not even be owning pets if they enjoy causing and watching other animals suffer. Whether the same thing happens to the mouse or not isn't really the issue, it's if the person has malicious intent. And you're saying that doesn't matter because the mouse dies anyway??

Weather you agree or not is unimportant. But try not to group folks with being lazy or sadistic

Sorry, but if people like to watch other animals in pain then they're being sadistic. I can't really explain this any more easier.

You can give your ball pythons parasites from ft. I don't know if you know that. It does happen. Just as injury and deaths happen from ft as well. Too hot, or too cold and your ball goes into shock and could die. Accidentally cooking or bad rodents etc and your ball could die.

I'd like to know what kind of parasite can survive the freezing process. The latter can easily be controlled - can you say the same for a live, unpredictable animal?

Just because you feed live because its more convenient, or you like to watch your snake eat, doesn't make it worse or cruel to the rats or anything like that.

Of course it makes it worse.

If you're killing them for pleasure, that indicates a malicious mindset. Wanting to cause pain to another animal and getting pleasure from it is far worse than not getting pleasure from it and being indifferent.

Many of those situations like the picture you captioned Gavin, is from days or weeks of a rodent being left in a closed off area with the snake no food no water.

I'd recommend taking a look at the forum thread I linked. Those instances were not "days or weeks"... a mouse has sharp enough teeth to take out an eye. In an instant. It has happened before. Just because it never happened with you doesn't mean it never will, and doesn't mean it is not an unnecessary risk.

Every technique has its own procedure. You follow that and you'll really Hve no issues. You don't and either way can kill your snake.

You can tell that to the people who had to pay expensive vet bills because a rat or mouse struck and took out an eye, or left a deep wound that would become infected.

And this is exactly why I don't buy any of these "convenience issues". Doing it for entertainment is flat out disgusting and should not be encouraged. If your snake is perfectly capable of taking f/t, then there's really no justification to feed it live unless you think a minute convenience outweighs the danger to the snake (and the suffering of the prey animal).

[akjadlnfkjfdkladf]

I don't consider being lazy or being indifferent to the feeder's welfare as logical. Saying something like "oh who cares if it suffers" is pretty weak.

Why would death by ball python constriction be considered "suffering" if death by being locked in a freezer would'nt be considered "suffering"?

[purplemuffin]

Who locks their rodents in a freezer to kill them?! I would consider that suffering as well. The rodents we have were killed either by gassing or spinal separation.

We've had the occasional rat that 'just wouldn't give up', and it's heartbreaking to watch. Especially when the snake just didn't get the best grip on the rodent and it kills it in a weird and long lasting way. We even had a rodent...well..it's guts shot out. Alive. I definitely cried that night, it was awful. Usually it's 'quick', but often times the times when we think the rodent is dead it's still alive, just knocked out of has given up. Not fun to see what you thought was dead have one last two or three kicks much later on. I can understand feeling bad for the rodent. Honestly, the fact that Maru won't take f/t reliably drives me nuts, and it's kind of preventing me from wanting ball pythons in the future, due to their notorious nature for not accepting f/t prey.

[Gavin]

I feed live out of conveinence... Yes. Mostly because I'm not going to thaw out 10 rats and feed another 50 live ones. That just isn't going to work. So I feed 60 something live ones and get through my feeding routine without all the craziness.

What is so crazy about thawing mice and simply just giving them to your snake?

That doesn't mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean that I'm cruel or anything else. It means I have a large collection and I do best for that collection with my lifestyle. I have not had any sort of injury to my collection from feeding live in over 2 years. And even then it was a little scratch that healed quickly. A day or two later you couldn't even see it. How do I know? Well because I specifically have a procedure for feeding my balls. And everyone is well watched and any feeding notes are well documented. Not every ball is ok with pk or ft. I know that if you came to my house and thawed 65 rats and went and placed one in each tub maybe 3 would eat. Then if you took the other 62 that didn't and played the rat zombie game feeding would take 2-4 hours. Again, would you do that weekly? When you have other responsibilities like cleaning cages rat/ball/ or otherwise? How about when you have to feed 200 other animals?

If your time is so important to you than perhaps you should either get a couple of assistants to help you, or not keep so many reptiles? You say you watch them during the live feeding process... would that not take just as much time too? Have you even tried giving them f/t or just simply dumped in a live animal because you couldn't be bothered thawing them? Have you tried converting them? Of course it's going to take time and patience... you own many reptiles for heaven's sake. What happens if one of the animals gets in a bite and it's a deep one? What then? 2-4 hours is nothing on a per week basis, especially with so many pets that you are responsible for.

[Gavin]

Why would death by ball python constriction be considered "suffering" if death by being locked in a freezer would'nt be considered "suffering"?

What?

Putting a live mammal in the freezer is not humane in the slightest, whoever is doing that is possibly breaking the law. No respectable vet, breeder, snake enthusiast or otherwise would even do or entertain the thought of such a thing. I don't know where you're getting this information from.

Cervical dislocation and CO2 are the methods used which are approved by vets and animal laboratories the world over. Whoever chucks them alive in a freezer is just committing animal cruelty.

[zeion97]

...*sighs*

That's all I can say besides..

*grabs popcorn*

As I state when i tech.. "I can teach everything I know about cooking, But I can not make you learn"

Regardless, you yourself see your opinion as better then ours. So to be honest? WHY do you care so much that we feed live? I'm not going to convert to F/T to please you.

And earlier since Jerry never said anything, you know that person you called stupid? I'd take his advice over almost anyone I know. Why? He knows his stuff. :\

So really, stop bashing our opinions, and accept that we do don't do what you like.

[Gavin]

We've had the occasional rat that 'just wouldn't give up', and it's heartbreaking to watch. Especially when the snake just didn't get the best grip on the rodent and it kills it in a weird and long lasting way. We even had a rodent...well..it's guts shot out. Alive. I definitely cried that night, it was awful.

And to think people get entertained by this sort of thing. There were even a couple of people on here trying to rationalise such 'entertainment' because "they enjoyed watching their pets" or "it's their opinion". Stuff like this is on YT with laughing idiots in the background... I can't believe someone tried to pass that off as not being "sadistic", but "natural". Dear lord.

That we can sympathise with the rat is, IMO, what makes us human really. What separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. Empathy is a good quality to have. Kudos to you my friend.

[RobNJ]

And to think people get entertained by this sort of thing. There were even a couple of people on here trying to rationalise such 'entertainment' because "they enjoyed watching their pets" or "it's their opinion". Stuff like this is on YT with laughing idiots in the background... I can't believe someone tried to pass that off as not being "sadistic", but "natural".

Having read this thread, i can't recall anyone they saying they feed live for kicks...so i think you're preaching to the wrong choir. Your vendetta may be better carried out commenting on YouTube than it is here.

[Gavin]

Regardless, you yourself see your opinion as better then ours. So to be honest? WHY do you care so much that we feed live? I'm not going to convert to F/T to please you.

Ok, I'm only going to say this once: shut up.

I was having a good discussion with a couple of members here, then you sprout up with this strawman. I never, ever stated that my opinion is better than any one else's. Why do I care? Because I'm a human being that dislikes pointless suffering in a controlled situation, and dislikes putting pets at risk.

If my sympathy for feeder animals and disdain to some of the reasons of live feeding offends you... or you think that somehow makes me self-righteous... then grow up. Really.

And earlier since Jerry never said anything, you know that person you called stupid? I'd take his advice over almost anyone I know. Why? He knows his stuff. :\

Never said anything? I've given you the quote as to why I called him an idiot. I don't care if he's friggen Einstein, that comment had a hint of malice about it. Converting f/t to live... why? What reason would you do this for? It makes zero sense and it was idiotic... sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for you.

So really, stop bashing our opinions, and accept that we do don't do what you like.

You've contributed absolutely nothing in terms of a retort - instead taking potshots. I actually agreed with some of the live feeders on here on particular points. Oh, I accept it fine... that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Or like it for that matter. If such a forthright honesty offends you... well... build a bridge...

[Gavin]

Having read this thread, i can't recall anyone they saying they feed live for kicks...so i think you're preaching to the wrong choir. Your vendetta may be better carried out commenting on YouTube than it is here.

Here:

I could give you a BS answer and think of some reason that I think live is better for my boy, or steal an answer from a more educated and experienced snake owner... BUT...
For me the honestly for real with facts answer is that I enjoy watching Jackson hunt and kill. Sorry if that offends...

Boom. Headshot.