Price drops

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I raise and hand feed my baby ball pythons. Plus, with over 20 breeders, I only got two clutches this year. Plus, how many spiders are imported each year? Less than there are parrots. Plus, there are hundreds of times more people buying multiple ball python morphs than there are buying parrots. Plus, people who buy ball pythons will typically buy several to dozens to hundreds of ball pythons, where people who by parrots, might by 2-3, with a majority probably only having a single parrot.

What about the other reptiles that hold their value? What about the bottoming out prices on ball morphs typically being lower than cost?

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dude birds need to be hand fed every 2 hours!
and those ppl buying hundreds are breeding them and selling them.
most ppl do not breed birds and those that do have way more than ball pythons. also its alot cheaper to feed and house a bp compared to a bird that wastes most of its food anyway.
oh yea and not to mention that some birds only have 2-4 eggs that might hatch

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Originally Posted by nixer

sure but you missed the point. say you produced 20 spiders this year and none sold. it takes money to feed them all. and when it comes to your family and everything else you should be picking your family and thats what the op did.

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If you produced 20 spiders this year, you aso produced 20 normals from the spider clutches alone. If you know that the economy sucks and don't think you can care for, or sell at market prices, 40 normals and spiders, why the hell are you producing so many snakes when your family's well being and finances might suffer? We didn't go into a recession over night, and surely your sales last year were a good indication of what things would be like this season. That's where I would think that greed comes into play.

Edit: If you have so many snakes you can't sell at market prices, you should be selling them to a wholesaler, if anything. Not advertising them for individual sale in public at wholesale prices, in turn, contributing to lower market prices for everyone who is willing to do the work.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

If you produced 20 spiders this year, you aso produced 20 normals from the spider clutches alone.
If you know that the economy sucks and don't think you can care for, or sell at market prices, 40 normals and spiders, why the hell are you producing so many snakes when your family's well being and finances might suffer? We didn't go into a recession over night, and surely your sales last year were a good indication of what things would be like this season. That's where I would think that greed comes into play.

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lol dude just when did it take a crap?
in many many places it did happen overnight. especially in the construction industry because alot banks pulled the loans.
also last year it was fine for most of the year.
have you ever heard the saying "Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Results"
also note that most ppl that lost their jobs well into breeding season and also that the gdp didnt drop till what feb or something like that.
not to mention that i would venture off as much to say that most of the ppl that did loose their jobs where there less than 5 years some of them even 10 years and that would include alot of the ppl from that nice 1999/200 hiccup
and alot of ppl who are younger early 30's and less. so just how many ppl do you think are the ones in this hobby

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Edit: If you have so many snakes you can't sell at market prices, you should be selling them to a wholesaler, if anything. Not advertising them for individual sale in public at wholesale prices, in turn, contributing to lower market prices for everyone who is willing to do the work.

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i agree but some wholesalers are not going to even pay the price he was charging

I've been producing and selling ball python mutations since 1997 ... Here are some of my thoughts on prices after doing this for 12 years.

Prices go down every year ... sometimes a little, sometimes a lot ... in the past I used to get really pissed ... now I accept that I have absolutely no control over it and I plan for as much as a 50%-60% drop each year on some mutations and adjust my business plan accordingly.

When I've priced my animals above market value I've been flamed and accused of ripping people off.

When I've priced my animals at market value I've been told that I'm being unfair to my customers and smaller scale breeders by competing with them directly and that I'm forcing them to drop their prices so that they can sell their animals and compete with me.

When I've priced my animals below market value I've been called a market crasher, scumbag, and price dropper.

After twelve years of doing this I've realized one thing ... no matter what you do, someone will be pissed off. I think some of it is jealousy, some of it is greed, and some of it is just that the internet seems to be a magnet for angry jerks.

I've put more money into this market than most people spend on their homes ... I got into lessers when the price was $40K, spiders at $10K, stripes and pins at $20K each and on and on and on. Shoot, I paid $5,000 for a het albino male 14 years ago.

I've made every single dime of that back and then some, even with people dumping prices on all of those projects year in and year out. I've done that because I had a sound business plan, a good marketing strategy, and I worked my a$$ off.

Something I like to tell people all the time is: "If the success or failure of your business revolves around how other people are pricing their animals, you've lost before you even started".

Love what you do, do it to the best of your ability, treat your customers well, and price your animals for what you feel is fair and reasonable ... and if anyone gives you poop for it ignore them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by nixer

lol dude just when did it take a crap?
in many many places it did happen overnight. especially in the construction industry because alot banks pulled the loans.
also last year it was fine for most of the year.
have you ever heard the saying "Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Results"
also note that most ppl that lost their jobs well into breeding season and also that the gdp didnt drop till what feb or something like that.
not to mention that i would venture off as much to say that most of the ppl that did loose their jobs where there less than 5 years some of them even 10 years and that would include alot of the ppl from that nice 1999/200 hiccup
and alot of ppl who are younger early 30's and less. so just how many ppl do you think are the ones in this hobby

That's not true. We've known for well over two years that we were headed into a recession that would only get worse and worse, with no signs of turning around anytime in the foreseeable future. Along with this, we know that some of the first things to go for most people are luxury items and extras, like reptiles. Plan accordingly.


i agree but some wholesalers are not going to even pay the price he was charging

Yeah, but if you are willing to do $130, what's another $30 to save face and look out for the hobby. But I was just talking in general, not about any individual. Just saying, if you are advertising morphs for practically wholesale prices, just bite the bullet and whole sale them.

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Originally Posted by Jared

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter to decide what HIS prices "should" be? It's appalling that there are so many people that think it is okay to dictate to others how to run THIER business, or how to price THIER ball pythons. What country do we live in again??

To be honest, such statements REEK of greed IMO.

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Some of the people in this conversation have been around for a LONG time. Some of the people in this conversation have spent a ridiculous amount of time and money on the first morphs acquiring, raising, and breeding them. Why did they do it? To make a couple bucks and to make it possible for others like you to be able to own such wonderful animals.

Now that they have spent all this money, and done all this work, people are acquiring the same animals for already low prices. Those people with $$$ in their eyes immediately try to breed the animals as quickly as possible usually with total disregard for the quality of their morph breeder, let alone the quality of the animal they choose to breed it with.

Then when their clutch or two hatches, they realize how difficult it can be to raise hatchlings, and how unprepared and more importantly UNWILLING they are to do what it takes to maintain the hatchlings until they have the opportunity to sell them at a fair market price. You can guess what they do next.

They sell the babies at ridiculously low prices just to get rid of their headache ASAP. People see this advertised price, and also sees several other similar people doing the same thing, and the damage is done. The average prices drop screwing EVERYONE except the buyer... especially the original people who made these snakes possible for us in the first place.

Who are YOU to say people don't have a right to upset with those that cause these unnecessary price drops? Your saying that just demonstrates how you obviously do not understand the history of the problem.



On another related point... In my opinion it is the bottom dwellers who reek of greed. They are the people that don't want to put any work or money into owning the best animals. They would rather let everyone else spend all the money and time acquiring, raising, and breeding multiple generations. Then they like to jump in on these arguments defending the guy who is burning thru snakes, permanently damaging the market because they are almost willing to spend the amount the guy in question is selling for... Hoping to drive the market even lower.

The really crappy part is these same people who were not willing to put any of the work or money into getting their animals are usually the same people who gets in way over their heads and dump all of their animals.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

That's not true. We've known for well over two years that we were headed into a recession that would only get worse and worse, with no signs of turning around anytime in the foreseeable future. Along with this, we know that some of the first things to go for most people are luxury items and extras, like reptiles. Plan accordingly.



Yeah, but if you are willing to do $130, what's another $30 to save face and look out for the hobby. But I was just talking in general, not about any individual. Just saying, if you are advertising morphs for practically wholesale prices, just bite the bullet and whole sale them.

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as for the first ill tell you this i was in a contract job that was a 2 year project and they pulled the funding just like that and the next day we were out. not to mention we had over 5 years worth of projects on the books, which were pushed back and are still being pushed back.
you should of seen that first hand in chicago because one week the tower cranes were running and a week later they were taking them down and this happened on many jobs throughout the construction industry.


as for the 30$. one might argue that why should he knock an extra 30$ off his animals. when you start a real business 30$ can make a big difference when it comes tax time especially when after those first years you can claim a loss or not and when you have to incorporate it

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've been producing and selling ball python mutations since 1997 ... Here are some of my thoughts on prices after doing this for 12 years.

Prices go down every year ... sometimes a little, sometimes a lot ... in the past I used to get really pissed ... now I accept that I have absolutely no control over it and I plan for as much as a 50%-60% drop each year on some mutations and adjust my business plan accordingly.

When I've priced my animals above market value I've been flamed and accused of ripping people off.

When I've priced my animals at market value I've been told that I'm being unfair to my customers and smaller scale breeders by competing with them directly and that I'm forcing them to drop their prices so that they can sell their animals and compete with me.

When I've priced my animals below market value I've been called a market crasher, scumbag, and price dropper.

After twelve years of doing this I've realized one thing ... no matter what you do, someone will be pissed off. I think some of it is jealousy, some of it is greed, and some of it is just that the internet seems to be a magnet for angry jerks.

I've put more money into this market than most people spend on their homes ... I got into lessers when the price was $40K, spiders at $10K, stripes and pins at $20K each and on and on and on. Shoot, I paid $5,000 for a het albino male 14 years ago.

I've made every single dime of that back and then some, even with people dumping prices on all of those projects year in and year out. I've done that because I had a sound business plan, a good marketing strategy, and I worked my a$$ off.

Something I like to tell people all the time is: "If the success or failure of your business revolves around how other people are pricing their animals, you've lost before you even started".

Love what you do, do it to the best of your ability, treat your customers well, and price your animals for what you feel is fair and reasonable ... and if anyone gives you poop for it ignore them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Well said!! Perfect! Great job!
(Emphasis added by me)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've been producing and selling ball python mutations since 1997 ... Here are some of my thoughts on prices after doing this for 12 years.

Prices go down every year ... sometimes a little, sometimes a lot ... in the past I used to get really pissed ... now I accept that I have absolutely no control over it and I plan for as much as a 50%-60% drop each year on some mutations and adjust my business plan accordingly.

When I've priced my animals above market value I've been flamed and accused of ripping people off.

When I've priced my animals at market value I've been told that I'm being unfair to my customers and smaller scale breeders by competing with them directly and that I'm forcing them to drop their prices so that they can sell their animals and compete with me.

When I've priced my animals below market value I've been called a market crasher, scumbag, and price dropper.

After twelve years of doing this I've realized one thing ... no matter what you do, someone will be pissed off. I think some of it is jealousy, some of it is greed, and some of it is just that the internet seems to be a magnet for angry jerks.

I've put more money into this market than most people spend on their homes ... I got into lessers when the price was $40K, spiders at $10K, stripes and pins at $20K each and on and on and on. Shoot, I paid $5,000 for a het albino male 14 years ago.

I've made every single dime of that back and then some, even with people dumping prices on all of those projects year in and year out. I've done that because I had a sound business plan, a good marketing strategy, and I worked my a$$ off.

Something I like to tell people all the time is: "If the success or failure of your business revolves around how other people are pricing their animals, you've lost before you even started".

Love what you do, do it to the best of your ability, treat your customers well, and price your animals for what you feel is fair and reasonable ... and if anyone gives you poop for it ignore them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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I agree with everything you said here Adam.

This conversation as I see it though isn't about the normal dropping of prices that happens each year. It is more specifically about the people selling even way below the level of that normal, generally across the board, drop. Sure their has always been some people that do this, but lately there are a BUNCH of people doing it.

In other words, say spiders were $5,000 last year. Because of the economy and everything else, the average spice of a spider this year has dropped down to $4,000.

The $1000 drop is to be expected. It sucks, but just about everyone at this point in the game expects it to happen to a certain extent.

This thread though is more specifically about the people that see spiders have dropped to $4,000 this year and in order to dump their animals ASAP price them at $2,500.

Then someone else that sees the $2,500 add, who also wants to dump their animals obviously isn't going to price higher then the $2,500. So they match it or even go lower.

This vicious cycle that plays out every single day on queensnake.com is what is destroying this market and people are rightfully pissed off about it.

Mike,

I appreciate what you're saying, but trust me ... it's not happening with any greater frequency or percentage drop than it has happened in the past.

I've been doing this a long time and this business is my life ... with prices, it's the same poop as always, just a different year.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

it's not happening with any greater frequency or percentage drop than it has happened in the past.

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Well, I guess I will have to take your word on this one. You have after all been doing things WAY longer then me. My personal observation in the last few years is that it is happening a lot more now then it was even a couple years ago.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

with prices, it's the same poop as always, just a different year.

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LOL, this brought a tear to my eye....

The price of the latest morph is going to slide faster and faster each time they appear - there's no sense in comparing them to birds, because different species of exotic birds are... well... different, and more rare/require more effort/input. There is no real difference between a normal ball python and a pied super-cinnamon. They're both members of a ubiquitous pet python species, and the average person isn't trying to "collect them all", or even most of them (many are just as happy with normals). As in; very few non-breeders are looking to score the really interesting color morphs, and with all the competition going on, the combos are all getting made and new ones come out in rapid succession, bumping eachother out of the spotlight.

So, imo, if you want to know what to expect from the ball python market, look at corn snakes.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

The price of the latest morph is going to slide faster and faster each time they appear - there's no sense in comparing them to birds, because different species of exotic birds are... well... different, and more rare/require more effort/input. There is no real difference between a normal ball python and a pied super-cinnamon. They're both members of a ubiquitous pet python species, and the average person isn't trying to "collect them all", or even most of them (many are just as happy with normals). As in; very few non-breeders are looking to score the really interesting color morphs, and with all the competition going on, the combos are all getting made and new ones come out in rapid succession, bumping eachother out of the spotlight.

So, imo, if you want to know what to expect from the ball python market, look at corn snakes.

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What happened to corn snakes?

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

What happened to corn snakes?

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prices dropped to like 20 to 50 dollars each... even for the morphs.

The idea that balls will end up priced like cornsnakes is in my opinion stupid.
Why do I say this? its simple. because BP babies cost a lot more to produce then corn snake babies.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

prices dropped to like 20 to 50 dollars each... even for the morphs.

The idea that balls will end up priced like cornsnakes is in my opinion stupid.
Why do I say this? its simple. because BP babies cost a lot more to produce then corn snake babies.

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Ah. Sorry I haven't been paying attention to the whole thread, but could someone summarize how come the ball python prices would be going down so much? Thanks I'd appreciate it.

Anyway, I also doubt they will reach the price of corn snakes. Corn snakes lay more eggs, and are easier to produce.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

prices dropped to like 20 to 50 dollars each... even for the morphs.

The idea that balls will end up priced like cornsnakes is in my opinion stupid.
Why do I say this? its simple. because BP babies cost a lot more to produce then corn snake babies.

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True, if you work things on a per baby cost.

One of the reasons corns dropped is because you can get 20 to 25 eggs out of a single female in a single clutch and many will double clutch. 40 babies is a lot of mouths to feed, cups to change, ads to place. If you've only got 10 females, that's a buttload of babies which you are not alone in producing.

I'm thinking that ball python production numbers will simply not be comparable once you realize just how many eggs a corn can produce.

Of course, those rotten corn breeders probably freeze male morphs to keep prices high for as long as possible......

I used to be irritated about this with CalKings. Now I just produce what I want and sell it for what I want. Sometimes I drop a price a bit if I have a bunch of a particular morph or someone is buying multiple animals but I am generally on the high end of he spectrum. Sometimes I have animals until the following spring, but they eventually sell for what I want.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

This conversation as I see it though isn't about the normal dropping of prices that happens each year. It is more specifically about the people selling even way below the level of that normal, generally across the board, drop. Sure their has always been some people that do this, but lately there are a BUNCH of people doing it.

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What defines "normal"? There is no set price that an animal will fall per year. Lots of factors determine that.

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In other words, say spiders were $5,000 last year. Because of the economy and everything else, the average spice of a spider this year has dropped down to $4,000.

The $1000 drop is to be expected. It sucks, but just about everyone at this point in the game expects it to happen to a certain extent.

This thread though is more specifically about the people that see spiders have dropped to $4,000 this year and in order to dump their animals ASAP price them at $2,500.

Then someone else that sees the $2,500 add, who also wants to dump their animals obviously isn't going to price higher then the $2,500. So they match it or even go lower.

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That's capitalism for you. Its competition, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

prices dropped to like 20 to 50 dollars each... even for the morphs.

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Yeah, but the newer combos still easily fetch in the $300-$500 range.

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The idea that balls will end up priced like cornsnakes is in my opinion stupid.
Why do I say this? its simple. because BP babies cost a lot more to produce then corn snake babies.

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I think you have a point in that bps won't end up like corn snakes for the fact that their clutches are smaller. But in a couple of years, many will be in the sub-$200 range. Even recessives will eventually drop as there start to be more homo x homo pairings.

What will stay up will be the newer morphs - especially triple and quadruple co-doms.

Adam said it best about having a long term strategy.

For example, lets say we assume lessers will eventually be $200 in two years. So you buy a lesser BEL male hatchling this year for $2k and a couple of proven females and a yearling female pastel.

In a year you breed him to two normal females and get 12 eggs from them both and produce 12 lessers. Maybe you can sell them each for $300. That's $3.6k gross, figure $500 for food, a $1k for your set up, and then $2.5k from the initial investment. So you're in the hole $400 at this point.

Well the following year you do a repeat breeding with the normals and then with the pastel who's now ready to go. Lets say you get another 12 eggs from the normals and 4 eggs from the pastel. So you produce 12 lessers and this year they're $200. And lets say you have perfect odds and get 2 lessers and 2 lesser pastels from the BEL to pastel breeding. You sell 14 lessers for $2.8k and one pastel lesser for $400 and hold back a lesser pastel. This year you grossed $3.2k. You were in the hole $400, and $500 for food again, so your net is $2.1k.

This is just an example, but if you plan ahead, have goals, and a long term plan in mind, then falling prices shouldn't be that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

The idea that balls will end up priced like cornsnakes is in my opinion stupid.

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Thanks for calling my idea "stupid", but you seem to have misunderstood a little. I don't expect balls to all fall to cornsnake levels, but i do expect that the vast majoriy of non-combo morphs will all slide to a very affordable price that are in close ranges of each other. You will be able to buy any base color morph for the same price as any other, and they will be just as easy to find as normals. Then the pet stores will carry them and...

well, you get the idea.

Even if you are making a profit with falling prices, the point is that ball python morphs don't need to be dropped as low as they are, as fast as they are. And if each snake costs $100 a year to care for, you are losing money when people push the prices down below $100. There isn't a ball python morph morph out there where females should ever fall below several hundred dollars, and males $100. Normals is a different story, because so many are imported.

No one can make anyone sell their animals for any price, but we can try to get it across that it's unnecessary and counter productive for each breeder, and for the hobby as a whole, to drive the prices down so low so quickly. If your animals aren't selling at market prices, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to try harder than it does to practically give them away publically, helping to crash your own market, and effecting everyone in it. We can try to get it across that breeders would sell out of females every year, even if the prices dropped 10% every year and never fell below $300. The message is that it's just plain stupid for so many breeders to continually lower prices as quickly as possible, to prices that are way below what they could be for sales to be the same as they are at the cheaper market prices. Is there really anyone involved in this conversation that doesn't think that female pastels would not get sold out every year had they not dropped so quickly, and if you couldn't find one for less than $300? Of course they would. So why are so many breeders in a hurry to give everything away, instead of taking the difference in price from a decent market price and the prices they are dropping them at, and spend it on improving your breeding stock and advertising your quality business? Stupidity, selfishness and greed, in my opinion. We can't tell anyone to sell their animals for more money, but when you all battle to have the cheapest of any given morph, you are telling the rest of the hobby that we can't charge as much as they are worth. The market is supposed to be what dictate a range for prices, but in this hobby the market itself is dictated by too many people who would rather shoot themselves in the foot and destroy the market for everyone, than to do any actual leg work or make any attempt to spend any time or money to make the sales like the decent half of the hobby does. The fact that female pastels ever dropped below $300-$400 proves that something other than common sense or actual supply and demand determines the market value in this hobby.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Even if you are making a profit with falling prices, the point is that ball python morphs don't need to be dropped as low as they are, as fast as they are. And if each snake costs $100 a year to care for, you are losing money when people push the prices down below $100. There isn't a ball python morph morph out there where females should ever fall below several hundred dollars, and males $100. Normals is a different story, because so many are imported.

No one can make anyone sell their animals for any price, but we can try to get it across that it's unnecessary and counter productive for each breeder, and for the hobby as a whole, to drive the prices down so low so quickly. If your animals aren't selling at market prices, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to try harder than it does to practically give them away publically, helping to crash your own market, and effecting everyone in it. We can try to get it across that breeders would sell out of females every year, even if the prices dropped 10% every year and never fell below $300. The message is that it's just plain stupid for so many breeders to continually lower prices as quickly as possible, to prices that are way below what they could be for sales to be the same as they are at the cheaper market prices. Is there really anyone involved in this conversation that doesn't think that female pastels would not get sold out every year had they not dropped so quickly, and if you couldn't find one for less than $300? Of course they would. So why are so many breeders in a hurry to give everything away, instead of taking the difference in price from a decent market price and the prices they are dropping them at, and spend it on improving your breeding stock and advertising your quality business? Stupidity, selfishness and greed, in my opinion. We can't tell anyone to sell their animals for more money, but when you all battle to have the cheapest of any given morph, you are telling the rest of the hobby that we can't charge as much as they are worth. The market is supposed to be what dictate a range for prices, but in this hobby the market itself is dictated by too many people who would rather shoot themselves in the foot and destroy the market for everyone, than to do any actual leg work or make any attempt to spend any time or money to make the sales like the decent half of the hobby does. The fact that female pastels ever dropped below $300-$400 proves that something other than common sense or actual supply and demand determines the market value in this hobby.

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Have you seen the Economy ! I think that has a lot to do with it !

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Even if you are making a profit with falling prices, the point is that ball python morphs don't need to be dropped as low as they are, as fast as they are. And if each snake costs $100 a year to care for, you are losing money when people push the prices down below $100. There isn't a ball python morph morph out there where females should ever fall below several hundred dollars, and males $100.

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one might argue the 100$ morphs male minimum, but the truth to this is there is many pastel and yb males selling for less than 100$

Do you suppose there should be some sort of ruling body, a group who sets prices, someone to make these decisions for us?

Because short of that, I don't see much changing.

I too wish prices would stay higher but I know they won't.

Until, or unless, there is a limit placed, how many are available, how many you can have, something like that, there will always be guys selling low.

I see it in False Water Cobras too. I am the most expensive guy out there. I see LOTS of other people sell out while I sell few. Then, as my snakes get older, I raise my prices and sell my snakes.

People that won't pay me 200.00 for a hatchling will give me 350.00 for a yearling. It doesn't cost me 150.00 to keep one for a year so my profit went up.

It's not easy to sit on babies, especially when the power bill is due and rent is right around the corner, and sometimes wholesaling is necessary and then there are deals to friends, but I have found that waiting it out will eventually sell my stock at my price.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Even if you are making a profit with falling prices, the point is that ball python morphs don't need to be dropped as low as they are, as fast as they are. And if each snake costs $100 a year to care for, you are losing money when people push the prices down below $100. There isn't a ball python morph morph out there where females should ever fall below several hundred dollars, and males $100. Normals is a different story, because so many are imported.

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"They don't need to be" dropped as fast? No one really decides that. If I have them priced for X amount and they're not selling, then I'm going to drop the price. You can't artificially set an amount they should be worth or should fall. Just not the way it works.

And there's no reason why female morphs won't drop to less than several hundred dollars. As more and more get produced, they become more and more common. You may not like it, but that's they way its going and they way it will eventually become.

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Have you seen the Economy ! I think that has a lot to do with it !

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Originally Posted by nixer

one might argue the 100$ morphs male minimum, but the truth to this is there is many pastel and yb males selling for less than 100$

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I know. That's what I said.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Do you suppose there should be some sort of ruling body, a group who sets prices, someone to make these decisions for us?

Because short of that, I don't see much changing.

I too wish prices would stay higher but I know they won't.

Until, or unless, there is a limit placed, how many are available, how many you can have, something like that, there will always be guys selling low.

I see it in False Water Cobras too. I am the most expensive guy out there. I see LOTS of other people sell out while I sell few. Then, as my snakes get older, I raise my prices and sell my snakes.

People that won't pay me 200.00 for a hatchling will give me 350.00 for a yearling. It doesn't cost me 150.00 to keep one for a year so my profit went up.

It's not easy to sit on babies, especially when the power bill is due and rent is right around the corner, and sometimes wholesaling is necessary and then there are deals to friends, but I have found that waiting it out will eventually sell my stock at my price.

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No, there shouldn't be any body to oversee prices. I just have this pipe dream that some of the people will wake up and take the time to work out a better business plan than the idiotic ones they use now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

For example, lets say we assume lessers will eventually be $200 in two years. So you buy a lesser BEL male hatchling this year for $2k and a couple of proven females and a yearling female pastel.

In a year you breed him to two normal females and get 12 eggs from them both and produce 12 lessers. Maybe you can sell them each for $300. That's $3.6k gross, figure $500 for food, a $1k for your set up, and then $2.5k from the initial investment. So you're in the hole $400 at this point.

Well the following year you do a repeat breeding with the normals and then with the pastel who's now ready to go. Lets say you get another 12 eggs from the normals and 4 eggs from the pastel. So you produce 12 lessers and this year they're $200. And lets say you have perfect odds and get 2 lessers and 2 lesser pastels from the BEL to pastel breeding. You sell 14 lessers for $2.8k and one pastel lesser for $400 and hold back a lesser pastel. This year you grossed $3.2k. You were in the hole $400, and $500 for food again, so your net is $2.1k.

This is just an example, but if you plan ahead, have goals, and a long term plan in mind, then falling prices shouldn't be that big of a deal.

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If it were only so simple...what about girls not ovulating, small clutched, bad odds, slugs, eggs dying...a lot of factors go into ball breeding....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monk90222

If it were only so simple...what about girls not ovulating, small clutched, bad odds, slugs, eggs dying...a lot of factors go into ball breeding....

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I know a lot can go wrong, including falling prices. All the more reason to have a mapped out plan that assumes these things will happen.

Quite a few people, including at least one Mod. here on BP.net have blamed KS, Fauna, and other sites for crashing prices.
What about this ad right here on this site?

No disrespect to BP.net, the Mod(s,) or even Kyle.
Just pointing out the market is tough all over.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hreadid=101574

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Quite a few people, including at least one Mod. here on BP.net have blamed KS, Fauna, and other sites for crashing prices.
What about this ad right here on this site?

No disrespect to BP.net, the Mod(s,) or even Kyle.
Just pointing out the market is tough all over.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hreadid=101574

---

Who knows? could be a total scam, or it could be someone who simply has a bad business plan and wants to dump their snakes regardless of what it does to the market. could be an honest person with good animals that just doesn't know any better. I don't know, and I don't care.

Any time someone has 8 total posts and posts a for sale thread, I completely disregard their add and instead pay attention to the adds from those who have earned my trust by contributing to this form BEFORE trying to take advantage of its for sale section.

Far too many good, established breeders on this forum to waste time with what is likely a scammer.

Either way such an add in my eyes in no way shape or form represents the current market price for reputable breeders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Who knows? could be a total scam, or it could be someone who simply has a bad business plan and wants to dump their snakes regardless of what it does to the market. could be an honest person with good animals that just doesn't know any better. I don't know, and I don't care.

Any time someone has 8 total posts and posts a for sale thread, I completely disregard their add and instead pay attention to the adds from those who have earned my trust by contributing to this form BEFORE trying to take advantage of its for sale section.

Far too many good, established breeders on this forum to waste time with what is likely a scammer.

Either way such an add in my eyes in no way shape or form represents the current market price for reputable breeders.

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Kyle is about as far from a scammer as you can get. :P

I don't know about anyone else, but I added up the cost for us to keep an adult BP per year, and I think it was $15 each for food, water and bedding. Not including electric, which for a whole month isn't very much.

Less than a 3rd of a cent per gallon of water, free newspaper.... Per snake, piddle sticks is what it adds up to in my very humble opinion.

Only cost for us is time and energy into actually caring for the animals, the occaisonal building of a rack (which aren't consumable) and raising their food. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Kyle is about as far from a scammer as you can get. :P

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That's GREAT to hear! get him to participate in these forums a little before taking advantage of the for sale section and you won't be the only one that knows that!!! :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I don't know about anyone else, but I added up the cost for us to keep an adult BP per year, and I think it was $15 each for food, water and bedding. Not including electric, which for a whole month isn't very much.

Less than a 3rd of a cent per gallon of water, free newspaper.... Per snake, piddle sticks is what it adds up to in my very humble opinion.

Only cost for us is time and energy into actually caring for the animals, the occaisonal building of a rack (which aren't consumable) and raising their food. :gj:

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$15 a year for food?...you sure don't feed your BP that much....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monk90222

$15 a year for food?...you sure don't feed your BP that much....

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At approx 7 cents a feeder, that's a good estimate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monk90222

$15 a year for food?...you sure don't feed your BP that much....

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She is basing it on the fact that she breeds her own rats... and If I may say, it is unfair for the purpose of this conversation. When figuring the price of feeders you HAVE to pay yourself for the hours upon hours upon hours it takes to create those rats.

Considering that, it costs a hell of a lot more then $15 per year per snake. a more realistic number would be at least $80 - $100 a year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Considering that, it costs a hell of a lot more then $15 per year per snake. a more realistic number would be at least $80 - $100 a year.

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$15 is a bit too optimistic. But I think its probably more in the $60 range. I spend $1 a week for small rats, so figure $50 a year on food, plus a few bucks on bedding and the electricity to run the heat and its in the $60 range per animal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

$15 is a bit too optimistic. But I think its probably more in the $60 range. I spend $1 a week for small rats, so figure $50 a year on food, plus a few bucks on bedding and the electricity to run the heat and its in the $60 range per animal.

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Even better.

So kiddies, instead of dumping that animal for such a pathetic price, keep it an grow it so you can sell it for nearly if not twice as much in a year or two. Even considering the costs of food, you still increase the amount of money you make on the snake. I SOOOOOOOO wish people would realize this and just slow down a little.

But they won't and before you know it the bottom feeders will prevail. Then EVERYBODY looses.

In the end... it's just another ball pythong.

10$ normal or $50,000 morph

It's just another ball python.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

$15 is a bit too optimistic. But I think its probably more in the $60 range. I spend $1 a week for small rats, so figure $50 a year on food, plus a few bucks on bedding and the electricity to run the heat and its in the $60 range per animal.

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Multiply that X 70 or so, for small time breeders, X thousands for the big guys.....so it turns out the people with 4 snakes can ruin a market for everyone. :gj:

I did not read this entire post, but for the record I am going to sell my hatchling spiders males for $150 + shipping and females for $250 + shipping, which is close to what I sold them for last year. There are so many people producing spiders now that it is tough to sell them unless you drop your prices a bit. Also the price of a snake does not determine its quality. Some people sell better quality animals than for less that others sell lesser quality animals for more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I did not read this entire post, but for the record I am going to sell my hatchling spiders males for $150 + shipping and females for $250 + shipping, which is close to what I sold them for last year. There are so many people producing spiders now that it is tough to sell them unless you drop your prices a bit. Also the price of a snake does not determine its quality. Some people sell better quality animals than for less that others sell lesser quality animals for more.

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In any transaction somebody gets sold. It is either the seller or the buyer that does the selling.

Sounds like you have had a few buyers dictate to you that your animals are below retail in value... and they sold you on it.

It is amazing to me that so many people claim that things just won't sell at average retail. This is my first year producing babies and I have been able to sell ALL of my hatchlings that I have offered for sale at full asking price based on what I see at current retail value. Sure almost every single one of my customers immediately replied with "your animals are way over priced compared to what people are selling for" But amazingly enough when I politely told them to buy elsewhere then, they all of a sudden agreed on my prices. This is true for both people local to me, and people in different states.

I guess some of us just aren't as easy to "be sold" on why are animals are worth less then average retail value.... :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Sure almost every single one of my customers immediately replied with "your animals are way over priced compared to what people are selling for" But amazingly enough when I politely told them to buy elsewhere then, they all of a sudden agreed on my prices.

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This is a perfect example of why there's really no need to worry about people who list animals below market prices in the grand scheme of things.

The reality is that there are buyers out there for everyone. Some are just looking for the best prices, while others have committed to finding a particular animal and when they find it they're willing to pay a little more to acquire it.

Even with all of the low prices out there (and they've been out there for years), I'm still able to sell out of all my available animals every year ... hundreds upon hundreds of them ... no matter how they are priced.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

This is a perfect example of why there's really no need to worry about people who list animals below market prices in the grand scheme of things.

The reality is that there are buyers out there for everyone. Some are just looking for the best prices, while others have committed to finding a particular animal and when they find it they're willing to pay a little more to acquire it.

Even with all of the low prices out there (and they've been out there for years), I'm still able to sell out of all my available animals every year ... hundreds upon hundreds of them ... no matter how they are priced.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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I agree and disagree. When a bunch of people crash a given market from $2k to 400, you can still sell animals at the high end of the market prices, or about $500 -$600, but if you tried selling them for the $1,800 they are worth to you you would find that there is no longer anyone willing to pay that when the new crashed market prices are $400 or so. Then the next year, when they could easily be going for $1,500, the new market price is $250, and you can maybe sell a few at $350, but never for the $1,200 - $1,500 they could still be sold for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I agree and disagree. When a bunch of people crash a given market from $2k to 400, you can still sell animals at the high end of the market prices, or about $500 -$600, but if you tried selling them for the $1,800 they are worth to you you would find that there is no longer anyone willing to pay that when the new crashed market prices are $400 or so. Then the next year, when they could easily be going for $1,500, the new market price is $250, and you can maybe sell a few at $350, but never for the $1,200 - $1,500 they could still be sold for.

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I was speaking in the context of $150 for a spider vs. $200 or even $250. But it can apply to higher end animals as well.

The first year I produced lessers, the advertised retail on them was from $22,000 - $18,000 ... the behind the scenes deals were in the $8,000 - $10,000 range by the end of the year. I produced 22 lessers and sold 3 for around $20,000 give or take and that's all that I wanted to sell. I could have sold more for $20,000 each if I wanted, even with people selling them for $8,000 (I turned down offers from two people that I remember). I made all of my money back on my original investment and put a nice piece of change in my pocket. The following season, the average retail price on lessers was $7,500 ... and I did extremely well selling them at that price (even though the behind the scenes deals were at half that).

Did I like to see it? Of course not. Did I make money? You bet your a$$ I did. Did I expect lessers to stay at $20K each forever? Well, considering that just the year before I paid almost double that for mine ... no.

I guess I'm just at a point in the business where I acknowledge that how other people price their animals is one thing that I have absolutely no control over ... no matter how loud I scream, angry I get, or how many low price threads I participate in ... so knowing that, I choose to focus on my animals and my sales.

But believe me, I understand the frustration when you see those animals being sold for what you believe to be a low price ... been there, done that. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I was speaking in the context of $150 for a spider vs. $200 or even $250. But it can apply to higher end animals as well.

The first year I produced lessers, the advertised retail on them was from $22,000 - $18,000 ... the behind the scenes deals were in the $8,000 - $10,000 range by the end of the year. I produced 22 lessers and sold 3 for around $20,000 give or take and that's all that I wanted to sell. I could have sold more for $20,000 each if I wanted, even with people selling them for $8,000 (I turned down offers from two people that I remember). I made all of my money back on my original investment and put a nice piece of change in my pocket. The following season, the average retail price on lessers was $7,500 ... and I did extremely well selling them at that price (even though the behind the scenes deals were at half that).

Did I like to see it? Of course not. Did I make money? You bet your a$$ I did. Did I expect lessers to stay at $20K each forever? Well, considering that just the year before I paid almost double that for mine ... no.

I guess I'm just at a point in the business where I acknowledge that how other people price their animals is one thing that I have absolutely no control over ... no matter how loud I scream, angry I get, or how many low price threads I participate in ... so knowing that, I choose to focus on my animals and my sales.

But believe me, I understand the frustration when you see those animals being sold for what you believe to be a low price ... been there, done that. ;)

-adam

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I understand what you're saying, and I understand that no one will ever change anyone else's mind about pricing and that there is still money to be made. I just want to see more people realize that bottoming out their prices effects other people, and that it isn't the only option to sell more snakes. Like I said before, it's just a pipe dream of mine, but it would be kind of nice to see a few people make that realization. Like I said, I took the difference in price that I would have lost if I dropped all my prices, and invested a portion of it in advertising. I made more sales at the decent prices, and also got more potential customers to my website, and got my name out there. That method is a win-win-win. Two wins for me, and one for the rest of the community. If a few other people would do the same, the falling prices would slow down, and everyone would be a winner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I guess I'm just at a point in the business where I acknowledge that how other people price their animals is one thing that I have absolutely no control over ... no matter how loud I scream, angry I get, or how many low price threads I participate in ... so knowing that, I choose to focus on my animals and my sales.

But believe me, I understand the frustration when you see those animals being sold for what you believe to be a low price ... been there, done that. ;)

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Very well worded.

Being an amateur at best in this hobby / business, I guess I am still at the point where it makes me feel better to complain in public about the people screwing things up for everyone. Not so much to humiliate the guilty, but instead to try and show at least one of them the light. I am sure in a few years Adam I will be more like you on this subject, but for now I am still convinced that some of them can be saved. And more importantly our prices can be protected to a certain extent.

I guess my sales background is part of it too.

Their has never been a better example of the old saying "Sold or be sold." So many breeders in this hobby are simply not sellers. So many that actually prefer TO BE SOLD on the value of their own animals.






.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Very well worded.

Being an amateur at best in this hobby / business, I guess I am still at the point where it makes me feel better to complain in public about the people screwing things up for everyone. Not so much to humiliate the guilty, but instead to try and show at least one of them the light. I am sure in a few years Adam I will be more like you on this subject, but for now I am still convinced that some of them can be saved. And more importantly our prices can be protected.

I guess my sales background is part of it too. Their has never been a better example of the old saying "Sold or be sold." So many breeders in this hobby are simply not sellers. So many that actually prefer to be sold on the value of their own animals.

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Funny thing is, if you search through the site, you'll find hundreds of old posts of mine trying to save/protect/educate ... bad news ... it didn't work. :P

Keep fighting the good fight though, it's a life lesson for sure.

-adam

Quote:

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Quote Mikey:
Being an amateur at best in this hobby / business, I guess I am still at the point where it makes me feel better to complain in public about the people screwing things up for everyone. Not so much to humiliate the guilty, but instead to try and show at least one of them the light. I am sure in a few years Adam I will be more like you on this subject, but for now I am still convinced that some of them can be saved. And more importantly our prices can be protected.

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Good luck showing one of "them" the light.
Good luck "saving some."
and more importantly,
Good luck protecting "our" prices.

Oh Yeah, Good luck selling your male Spiders for more then $150. - $200.

You should worry more about the fact that you do not have enough enclosures for your animals.
You are housing and intend to breed your females two per tub.
Talk about slowing down.

You can call it research all you want, and your friends that would normally jump all over a noobie for the same thing, can defend you all they want.
The truth is that you are in such a hurry to produce as many animals as quickly as possible to make as much money as you can, that it is more important to you then the health of your animals.

That is why "protecting our prices" is so important to you, and in your own words, more important then "saving some, and showing at least one of them the light."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Good luck showing one of "them" the light.
Good luck "saving some."
and more importantly,
Good luck protecting "our" prices.

Oh Yeah, Good luck selling your male Spiders for more then $150. - $200.

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LOL, you have no idea how silly you are making yourself look... Actually the prices I have ALREADY SOLD my 09 male spiders for were at the current retail price... $275 - $300.

It is amazing what a good reputation and patience in this business will do for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

LOL, you have no idea how silly you are making yourself look... Actually the prices I have ALREADY SOLD my 09 male spiders for were at the current retail price... $275 - $300.

It is amazing what a good reputation and patience in this business will do for you.

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Then no offense, but why are you complaining if you're selling your animals for what you're asking?