So what's the consensus on Spider x Spider?

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I've heard wobble is just chance, and not passed on genetically? What I mean is, if a spider parent has bad wobble, that doesn't mean it'll pass it's bad wobble to its hatchlings. The hatchlings could be spider and with no wobble at all.

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Close, but no. ALL spiders have a wobble, but the degree to which they wobble is not determined by the severity of the wobble in the parents. You can have a really bad wobbler that produces seemingly normal offspring, or a seemingly normal parent that produces trainwreck wobblers. However, as I said before, if you have a spider, it has a wobble.

I have a lesser bee and a bumblebee, so two spiders. My lesser bee is a mess and the most flamboyant wobble example I have ever seen. My bumblebee doesn't seem to wobble hardly at all. The lesser bee can produce snakes like the bumblebee and the bumblebee can produce snakes like the lesser bee, but there is always a wobble attached to the spider gene.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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The wobble is there regardless what you breed. You can't make it stronger or weaker or remove it. However if you breed say a spider and sable then you have an extreme issue there. Same with champ, HGW, etc.... There are morphs that don't work crossed to a spider it does equal lethal or extremely messed up. Spider x spider is not one of those breedings though.

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Originally Posted by bondo

How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

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To prove super spider exists, it only takes one breeding in theory. To prove it is lethal, well how many spider x spider breeding do we have real numbers for? I doubt I could find 15 if I looked. As I already said, anything lethal can be wrote off as "it happens" so what proof can you really provide? I did spider x spider this year, I was waiting for eggs to hatch to report my clutch, but we are having the discussion already so why not. She laid 6 eggs, 2 didn't have veins, so we can just forget about them. out of the 4 eggs, 1 egg went bad. In the thread here, I talk about cutting open the egg, It was a very under developed snake. Could it be a super? sure. could it be something that happens? sure. can I prove it either way? nope. im still waiting on the remaining 3 to hatch.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I get what you are saying. However if I want queenbees I wouldn't buy a lesser male to breed to the bumblebee. If I have a lesserbee I would breed and increase my chances of getting the spider gene. Some people might only have 1 or 2 males and don't necessarily have different options.

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It would only increase your odds if the gene is not lethal, if it is lethal it would have the same chance of spiders and less non-spider offspring.

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

Put the drugs down and step away! You are clueless! Give Kevin at NERD a call,since he imported the original,and can educate you.;) Spider x spider is not lethal.

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Funny I've asked him to educate me and discuss it, shoots it down everytime, in person, on the phone, publicly on facebook, or in email. Apparently I am supposed to blindly take his word that "it's fine", and thats all he ever shares about it.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

The logic here isn't quite right. Bear in mind that people have tried to prove out a homozygous pinstripe for about as long as spider, and such a snake simply doesn't exist. Obviously no one here is debating over genes like pinstripe or calico being fatal in double doses, so it's fair to assume lack of super does not equate to lethal genetics.

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BHB has produced a homozygous pin and evan stahl currently owns one. What are you talking about? I also did a pin x pin breeding this year,7 or 8 eggs cooking right now (bad that I can't remember exactly) hopefully I can prove a homozygous pin out also sometime. Calico x calico on the other hand I have only found 1 reported calico to calico breeding and it never followed up with proving out any of the babies. If no one is doing the breedings, you are not going to hear much discussion about it.


A lack in super is a lack of actually knowing how the gene behaves.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I've heard wobble is just chance, and not passed on genetically? What I mean is, if a spider parent has bad wobble, that doesn't mean it'll pass it's bad wobble to its hatchlings. The hatchlings could be spider and with no wobble at all.

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Yes, all spiders have the potential to wobble. the wobble can be graded on a scale of 0-10. that number appears to be randomly selected at birth. *edit* and that number can change through its life.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

Close, but no. ALL spiders have a wobble, but the degree to which they wobble is not determined by the severity of the wobble in the parents. You can have a really bad wobbler that produces seemingly normal offspring, or a seemingly normal parent that produces trainwreck wobblers. However, as I said before, if you have a spider, it has a wobble.

I have a lesser bee and a bumblebee, so two spiders. My lesser bee is a mess and the most flamboyant wobble example I have ever seen. My bumblebee doesn't seem to wobble hardly at all. The lesser bee can produce snakes like the bumblebee and the bumblebee can produce snakes like the lesser bee, but there is always a wobble attached to the spider gene.

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Exactly right. I have had snakes with the spider gene that go 5 years and show pretty much no sign. Then bang one day the snake is holding it's head sideways and missing strikes. I agree that ALL spiders hold the wobble gene. Some show it some don't. Some will get worse some won't.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Funny I've asked him to educate me and discuss it, shoots it down everytime, in person, on the phone, publicly on facebook, or in email. Apparently I am supposed to blindly take his word that "it's fine", and thats all he ever shares about it.



BHB has produced a homozygous pin and evan stahl currently owns one. What are you talking about? I also did a pin x pin breeding this year,7 or 8 eggs cooking right now (bad that I can't remember exactly) hopefully I can prove a homozygous pin out also sometime. Calico x calico on the other hand I have only found 1 reported calico to calico breeding and it never followed up with proving out any of the babies. If no one is doing the breedings, you are not going to hear much discussion about it.

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So you don't trust Kevin's word but you believe the word of Brian and Evan. It doesn't matter to me either way. Just thought that was kind of odd. Don't get me wrong Kevin has given some wrong info in his time. After 16 years of breeding spiders I would think his info should be pretty good by now though. Also considering the spider gene is worth very little now so no reason to bs people. Like I said I have done the breeding myself a few times. Do I have proof, documentation, pictures, etc.? No I don't because I felt there was no reason to because it isn't lethal. Trust me if anything weird would of happened I would of posted it everywhere.

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Originally Posted by bondo

So you don't trust Kevin's word but you believe the word of Brian and Evan. It doesn't matter to me either way. Just thought that was kind of odd. Don't get me wrong Kevin has given some wrong info in his time. After 16 years of breeding spiders I would think his info should be pretty good by now though. Also considering the spider gene is worth very little now so no reason to bs people. Like I said I have done the breeding myself a few times. Do I have proof, documentation, pictures, etc.? No I don't because I felt there was no reason to because it isn't lethal. Trust me if anything weird would of happened I would of posted it everywhere.

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Both brian and evan gave me their numbers. Kevin just says its fine. When it comes down to it, proof is only going to be peoples words, documentation or picture can be manipulated in ways. What would you considered weird? As I said before there are scattered reports of things suggesting lethal. My breeding I just did could suggest it. Is there hard proof? absolutely not. and the lingering question, How do you explain a non lethal non homozygous situation?

Your clear cut answer of it's not lethal doesn't have solid evidence, just like the lethal side of the debate. So why pretend like there is a clear cut answer? Theres not.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Both brian and evan gave me their numbers. Kevin just says its fine. When it comes down to it, proof is only going to be peoples words, documentation or picture can be manipulated in ways. What would you considered weird? As I said before there are scattered reports of things suggesting lethal. My breeding I just did could suggest it. Is there hard proof? absolutely not. and the lingering question, How do you explain a non lethal non homozygous situation?

Your clear cut answer of it's not lethal doesn't have solid evidence, just like the lethal side of the debate. So why pretend like there is a clear cut answer? Theres not.

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You are right there is no 100% positive yes or no. It will probably not ever happen. Because to answer it there will have to be a super made. Just like some think a desert female can still lay a viable egg. I can't say 100% I am positive. However there comes a point when something has been tried multiple times and it doesn't happen you just say yup pretty sure now.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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A spider ball python (with a spider gene paired to a normal gene) mated to a non-spider ball python is expected to produce 50% spider with wobble and 50% non-spider without wobble. That's not watering down, it's just statistics.

What is a spider x spider?

Is it a spider with two spider genes in the gene pair? If so, then mating it to a normal will produce 100% spider babies (snakes with a spider gene paired with a normal gene).

Or is spider x spider the mating of a spider ball python to a spider ball python (each with a spider gene paired with a normal gene)? Doing a Punnett square for this mating gives the following expected results:
25% normal (with 2 normal genes) -- alive
50% spider with wobble (with a spider gene paired with a normal gene) -- alive
25% appearance unknown, AKA super spider (with a gene pair containing 2 spider genes) -- possibly dead

IMO, when Kevin says spider x spider is fine, he means the second -- spider ball python mated to spider ball python. And it is fine because most of the expected babies hatch out, and those babies are just as healthy as babies from a spider ball python (with one spider gene) mated to a normal.

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Originally Posted by paulh

A spider ball python (with a spider gene paired to a normal gene) mated to a non-spider ball python is expected to produce 50% spider with wobble and 50% non-spider without wobble. That's not watering down, it's just statistics.

What is a spider x spider?

Is it a spider with two spider genes in the gene pair? If so, then mating it to a normal will produce 100% spider babies (snakes with a spider gene paired with a normal gene).

Or is spider x spider the mating of a spider ball python to a spider ball python (each with a spider gene paired with a normal gene)? Doing a Punnett square for this mating gives the following expected results:
25% normal (with 2 normal genes) -- alive
50% spider with wobble (with a spider gene paired with a normal gene) -- alive
25% appearance unknown, AKA super spider (with a gene pair containing 2 spider genes) -- possibly dead

IMO, when Kevin says spider x spider is fine, he means the second -- spider ball python mated to spider ball python. And it is fine because most of the expected babies hatch out, and those babies are just as healthy as babies from a spider ball python (with one spider gene) mated to a normal.

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The wobble is in ever snake with spider in it. There is no spider with out a wobble. Some just display it some dont. Some will have no wobble for years then It will start wobbling for no reason.


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Originally Posted by bondo

You are right there is no 100% positive yes or no. It will probably not ever happen. Because to answer it there will have to be a super made.

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I think we can agree there, the "alive" side of the debate hasn't produced a super spider, the "doesn't exist" side of the debate can't explain the no homozygous no lethal part and the "lethal" side doesn't have good evidence. I don't see how the question can be answered anytime soon, besides a proven super spider coming to light. Which honestly, while i think it is unlikely, I don't think is completely out of the question. I mean whens the last time you heard about someone trying to prove one out? because I've never heard of anyone trying it, even NERD. We all assume they would of, but again all I've heard about it, is they are fine lol.