butter or lesser??????

Not to be a thorn or anything...but if you are out to line breed and prove one way or another, shouldn't you have got a lesser from RDR directly an offspring of platty daddy? I mean...that's like science 101. Get reliable, definate subjects...if you're asking about the possibility of your snake then you are not proving anything, just guessing with what you've got. That is not good science.

Unless I'm missing something?

Also, its generally frowned upon to go tossing around negative rep because you don't agree with someone. Neg rep is for rude, or harmful replies. Not a cry button when someone states their opinion on your question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treachery

the point I'm trying to make is us "BLACKS" come in shades of very dark to very light. But we are all "Black".

---

Substitute "black" with lesser/butter and that's exactly what I was pointing out.

The reason for the separate names is due to separate founders. Two different imports of the same genetic mutation. Two different founders who came up with their own names. Same reason why there are many lines of the same morph with different names. (Example, Orangebelly, Bling, Amir line are all Yellowbellies)

Are you actually a scientist? Some of your hypothesis and theories make no sense in this topic.
If you say certain animals were switched at birth, then why do siblings vary so much? For example, an animal that you can visually identify as a "true lesser" by your standard could have indeed been hatched out of a butter with "true butter" looking siblings. Does that make that odd animal a lesser or butter?

Either way. If you're really intent on a legitimate scientific discovery regarding lesser and butters, get a large sample of both to DNA sequence. Because phenotypic comparison will do you no good due to the variation.....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

TO "satomi325".........
I'm sorry if I gave you a "dis" or whatever on this site, I'm new to this whole blogging thing and thought I was sending you a thumbs down on your reply, . As breeders we should never be close minded, always be a student, always be willing to be wrong!

I'm gonna hit you with a radical thought....just follow me....with an open mind!

You just talked about all the different lines of pastels, this is my point in a nutshell.....I could be wrong and it's no shame in that...but for them to be visibly different, someone must breed to prove out these differences within the same line. Everyone keeps telling me that lessers, and butters are the same.....so just like lemon pastels or blonde pastels are proven.....my hypothesis is I can prove out a purer versions of these wonderful morphs! I feel that somewhere down the line we switched them up due to them looking so much alike or due to inter breeding between the two, trying to get a white snake and it's skewed the differences in the lines. Breeding over time is the proof, dogs are a nice example of this. All wolves, but I like short tails and hair, so I breed for this trait and down the line I come out with a boxer. Crazy things have happend!

point well taken roseyreps on the neg rep....I didn't know the "rules" about that till just today and didn't mean to dis anyone....

and boo to what you say about proving nothing, cause at the end of the day unless you have a degree in genetic science no ones an expert. I trust my community, so if someone sells me a lesser I turst they are telling the truth, but whats wrong with questioning the norm? The point is again.........and I could be wrong...is that we've been calling one the other so long that we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. Educated guess, so if I breed for the traits, the rest will take care of it's self right? Lemurs, K-9's, even humans all over time can be "proven out". Close mindedness is a cancer, please don't let it in our community!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treachery

point well taken roseyreps on the neg rep....I didn't know the "rules" about that till just today and didn't mean to dis anyone....

and boo to what you say about proving nothing, cause at the end of the day unless you have a degree in genetic science no ones an expert. I trust my community, so if someone sells me a lesser I turst they are telling the truth, but whats wrong with questioning the norm? The point is again.........and I could be wrong...is that we've been calling one the other so long that we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. Educated guess, so if I breed for the traits, the rest will take care of it's self right? Lemurs, K-9's, even humans all over time can be "proven out". Close mindedness is a cancer, please don't let it in our community!

---

You are proving nothing by starting with unpure lines. For all you know your "lesser" could be a "butter". They are so similar, how is anyone to know? The only GOOD science, is by getting one directly from Ralph Davis, directly from his Platty Daddy. Other than that, your theory of dirty lines means that any other breeder could have a butter instead. So, yes. It is bad science, and it IS proving nothing because you are not starting with good BASE science.

I didn't say you cannot prove a line, that's obviously true. You cannot however, prove a certain lines traits vs another similar / exact if you are unsure of what you're starting with in the first place. That is just common sense. So boo all you like, just know no one is going to take your "science" seriously if you turn your nose up at starting correctly.

If you trusted your community, and your breeder, than why did you ask what you had in the first place? Obviously you don't trust the community, because you're saying the community / breeders have muddled the lines and now can no longer tell the difference. This is not a bad theory, but you are flip flopping on what point you are striving for. Stick with one or the other until you prove either right or wrong.

To add to that, I am all for line breeding and proving traits. You are not proving something new though, instead you are trying to rewrite what has been done to prove a difference in two similar if not the same morphs that already exist. To do this right, you need to start at the beginning. Not the middle or end.

FYI I'm just a regular guy who loves snakes and thinking outside the norm....I again make no claims to know anything...hence the word educated GUESS

I don't dissagree with any of the points you make about different lines!

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just forget what you know for a sec about morphs and all you were thought.....open mind, clean slate! :)

you got a yellow snake and blue snake, and you find that by breeding them you can get a snake that is green. So you do this, and get a few green snakes, you would still have some come out blue and some come out yellow. I would think that even the ones that look yellow still cary some blue in them so now no matter what they look like they are forever mixed. So no matter what it mates with, it can/and will pop out babies that have any combo of the "original" mom and dad. Making the bloodline forever mixed. Now for the yellowgreen babies and all shades in the middle can either be call one or the other. Is our president "Black" or "White" or mixed and what does that make his daughters? What if they have kids with Black men, would that make our president grandkids less White?...LOL people even question this. Just a idea, it can grow, not an absolute! Taken lesser that look one way and butters that look another, Good ole "selective breed" can prove out anything.....and isn't that part of the fun? Never knowing what you're gonna see pop out the egg?!!!!

Are you even reading any of my responses? Line breeding is great, proving out a line is awesome. But to prove out differences in similar / same morphs, you need to start with that specific morph. The PUREST.

If you are saying you want to take on line breeding lessers or butters because you think your selective breeding can make a better line, that is great. Breeding the highest contrast or cleanest patterned or whathaveyou. That is fine, nothing wrong there. But if you are insisting that you are line breeding to prove the difference between these two morphs, it is kind of a huge deal your NOT starting with a first generation lesser from RDR...

This is my last attempt to try and get the point across...I feel like I have repeated myself 3 different times with 3 different wordings and still you are not grasping what I'm trying to say.

Line breed all you like and make a beautiful line, but that will not prove anything about the two morphs. Sorry. I'm sure you will prove out some stellar line, but it won't show anything towards the original discussion of butter vs lesser. That is not me being close-minded, that is you not comprehending the process of starting from the beginning. I'm all for proving out the difference in the butter and lesser, I think it would be very neat. But I think you're going about it the wrong way to be taken seriously about your endeavors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treachery

point well taken roseyreps on the neg rep....I didn't know the "rules" about that till just today and didn't mean to dis anyone....

and boo to what you say about proving nothing, cause at the end of the day unless you have a degree in genetic science no ones an expert. I trust my community, so if someone sells me a lesser I turst they are telling the truth, but whats wrong with questioning the norm? The point is again.........and I could be wrong...is that we've been calling one the other so long that we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. Educated guess, so if I breed for the traits, the rest will take care of it's self right? Lemurs, K-9's, even humans all over time can be "proven out". Close mindedness is a cancer, please don't let it in our community!

---

Not a geneticists, but I am a research biologist by career.
And it's not that I'm closed minded, its that some of your theories make no sense and contradict each other. Research and develop those thoughts more on these animals, then present your theories again. You're going into this blindly.
Research more on reptile breeding or genetics in general. From your example, a green snake parent can have yellow or blue offspring. Those offspring cannot carry the green gene.
Here is it in BP terms: a pastel + lesser = pastel lesser. The pastel lesser can have pastel and lesser offspring when bred to a blank slate normal. Those offspring do not carry 'pastel lesser' so they cannot have pastel lesser hatchlings with a normal. And the pastel offspring does not carry any lesser genes. And vice versa. Otherwise it would be a pastel lesser.


Here is some insight. Most lines of morph are not stemmed from the same animal. All the pastel lines did not branch from one pastel here in the states. They are from separate imported animals with the same mutation of different variation.

What do you mean " we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. "? Do you know what the difference is? Its the name.
What gives you the right to deem what is true and what is not? Perhaps Ralph Davis and the Bells deemed the lesser and butter to look similar since they are the same mutation? How do you know that the original Lesser and Butter looked the same or different? How can you have a designated look for them?

I agree with everything Rosey said.

Yes selective breeding of traits can happen, but that doesn't mean they are different. And what happens when you breed that lesser or butter to another morph that ruins the 'true' appearance? A 'true' lesser to a cinnamon could have 'true' butter looking offspring.
Does that mean you can only breed one 'true' lesser to another 'true' lesser to get 'purebreds'?
(The term pure bred would be wrong since captive ball pythons are no different than wild balls other than their paint job).

Again, do some research and develop your theories even more. As of now, they make no sense. But I can see where you are going somewhat.........



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

and again roseyreps, we are all on the honnor system I thought.....I have yet to meet a breeder(not saying some don't) who does test tube gene/dna and blood studies on all their snake. I'm not flip flopping I'm just again asking question? Isn't that what a true hypothesis is? to see if it stands up to a scientific method? I do trust the guy I got the snake from and the herp community, but I also have an open mind. How would anyone in fact know they were getting what they wanted without dna testing? Trust and the honnor system is very important in what we do, im sure we can all agree on this! One word HETS...lol....

The question I ask(AND PLEASE BEFORE ANYONES ELES MAKES A POST, HEAR THE QUESTION PLEASE!!!)is did someone, somewhere make a mistake with what is what (muddied up the lines) and now everyones EGO is letting them make claims that are in themselves just guesses. The point AGAIN is that no ONE person can say with 100% certainty what I have....and that's the RUBB and the funniest part of this whole thread. I show one pic of my snake, and one person says "trust the breeder", while another says butter, because of this traits or another says lesser because of this.....look at the many post on this thread or this topic, at my humble best I cannot call one person wrong or another right. AGAIN no matter who's line I start with anyone can question it one way or another, because as I've been told over and over and over and over that they are the same or that you could put a 6 of each in a pic and no one of us could guess them apart! So what I want to do is good ole trait "selective breeding". Getting all the butters and lesser I can a breeding for differences, to see what I can get. For some reason I feel like some of you are not seeing the forest for the trees. My guess is if i breed anything long enough no matter how dirty the genes are to start, I can breed traits out and/or in.....and that not bad science...that just science.