Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

Well,

That's kind of why I suggested the visual toffee x visual albino pairing.

If you get even one normal looking animal it isn't allelic.

If you get all albino looking animals then they might be allelic Or it's a combo morph.

Kind of like an extreme version of het pied being visually detectable in some of the combo's NERD is talking about.

If not all of the albinos colour up the same it might be the unsuspected het or a combo created by adding a het toffee gene to a homozygous albino.

But if it was a standard albino het then only 50% of the offspring should get a copy of that gene.

That should hopefully let you see how a het toffee het albino and a het toffee homozygous albino compare.

If they all colour up the same then we need to start faffing around even more using the toffinos.

Er.... I think. :confused:

All I know is that if I was heavily into the toffee or candy morph I'd be trying to find out the exact genetics as quickly as possible to try and protect the morph.


dr del

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

My concern is how do you rule out the het toffee was also het albino or the other way around? and maybe they are not compatable just happen to have a double het in one of the pair:confused:

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like just about everything in the snake genetics world, statistics is how we determine what is "fact." Chances of multiple breeders screwing up and selling double hets for the price of a single het, then selling those animals to other breeders who all produce similar results.... I'd say the chances are pretty low.

It would be interesting if it turned out to be a combo, but judging by all the other morphs that are allelic, i think its a safe bet to assume they are also.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

like just about everything in the snake genetics world, statistics is how we determine what is "fact." Chances of multiple breeders screwing up and selling double hets for the price of a single het, then selling those animals to other breeders who all produce similar results.... I'd say the chances are pretty low.

It would be interesting if it turned out to be a combo, but judging by all the other morphs that are allelic, i think its a safe bet to assume they are also.

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My point is there are many animals that ARE het for something and we have no idea until they are actually bred. I know several different people (here on BP net) that got surprise clutches with clowns, pieds, ghosts and albinos when they thought only one of the pairing carried the gene and the other (a completely different morph) turned out also to be a het to their other snake. One case they had no idea either snake was het for ghost until they popped up. Happens all the time.

Het for albino is probably the most common recessive trait out there. Food for thought;)

The problem we have now is that every one is putting in all of there "expert" opinions, or "facts" about a new development of a morph that quit frankly no one knows what is realy going on.
No one knows whats going on yet. So many people are saying this or that and its all conjecture. More breedings need to be done. Hatchlings need to grow into adults. Those adults need to be bred. Untill then all this crud about whats going on is unproven and as far as everyone else should be concerned unaccurate.
All of the "genetic" experts in the ball python world with there half accurate(false) knowledge of basic genetics saying whats going on with the whole Toffee project realy cracks me up. Most of these people don't even know how real codominant/dominant genes work or what they are.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Get a het Toffee and try your own magic. After the breedings are done and we have passed a few years down the road then we may have a better understanding of whats Realy going on.




Also all this talk about Allels. There can be more than 2 Allels on a Loci. Food for thought. Some color genes have 3 or 4 Allels. Some Loci can affect other Loci. But oh yea this is "Ball Python" genetics. They work completely differently than every other living creature.

Sure we could be proven wrong later but these animals are being sold now and pairings are being planned for next season so we need a best guess informed theory now. The allele theory seems most likely to be right here just like it was with the platy. It took many years for the majority of people, including those breeding them, to come around to the allele explanation for the platy but perhaps some where well served by listening while it was still a crackpot theory. Maybe not the best example because I don't recall seeing the hidden gene being marketed but in this case it's reasonable to assume that soon a fair number of breeders will have access to both toffee and albino genetics and be making decisions based on whatever theory sounds best to them at that time so best not to defer the discussion any longer.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem we have now is that every one is putting in all of there "expert" opinions, or "facts" about a new development of a morph that quit frankly no one knows what is realy going on.
No one knows whats going on yet. So many people are saying this or that and its all conjecture. More breedings need to be done. Hatchlings need to grow into adults. Those adults need to be bred. Untill then all this crud about whats going on is unproven and as far as everyone else should be concerned unaccurate.
All of the "genetic" experts in the ball python world with there half accurate(false) knowledge of basic genetics saying whats going on with the whole Toffee project realy cracks me up. Most of these people don't even know how real codominant/dominant genes work or what they are.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Get a het Toffee and try your own magic. After the breedings are done and we have passed a few years down the road then we may have a better understanding of whats Realy going on.




Also all this talk about Allels. There can be more than 2 Allels on a Loci. Food for thought. Some color genes have 3 or 4 Allels. Some Loci can affect other Loci. But oh yea this is "Ball Python" genetics. They work completely differently than every other living creature.

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I wouldn't go knocking on anyone since you earlier in the other thread made a claim that it was possible for it to be compatible with both albino and lav albino......

codom and dom are just terms to describe observable traits, mendel's system, it has little to do with whats going on at a genetic level, you have alleles and loci, heterozygous and homozygous, doesn't get more simple than that and this is what we are talking about. The ball python world has changed mendels system but it still works and imo makes more sense for what we are dealing with, otherwise we would be calling most things co-dom.

there cannot be more than 2 alleles on a locus, when a baby is coming to be, you get 1 allele from a locus from mom and 1 allele form the same locus from dad. while some alleles can produce similar results (ex. the 3 lines of axanthic) they are on different loci. If you have an extra chromosome you can have 3 alleles but we know what problems that usually causes.

I would be hard pressed to call anything a "color gene" because a single allele can effect multiple traits. look at the spider. for all we know the pastel gene might cause other things to happen other than just color. We don't know.

no nothing is 100% set in stone here, but judging patterns and looking at statistics you can make some pretty safe assumptions that might as well be "fact" until proven otherwise. just like the leopard being a visual het pied

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem we have now is that every one is putting in all of there "expert" opinions, or "facts" about a new development of a morph that quit frankly no one knows what is realy going on.

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If het toffee x het albino = albino of some sort, then they are compatible and the simplest explanation is that they are allelic to each other. Simple as that.

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No one knows whats going on yet.

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Is it fully understood? No, but based on the results so far, they appear to be allelic to each other.

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Most of these people don't even know how real codominant/dominant genes work or what they are.

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Yes, the terms co-dominant/dominant are misused, but that is a technicality more than anything. These people have a good enough understanding to have a good idea of what is going on.

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Also all this talk about Allels. There can be more than 2 Allels on a Loci. Food for thought. Some color genes have 3 or 4 Allels. Some Loci can affect other Loci. But oh yea this is "Ball Python" genetics. They work completely differently than every other living creature.

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There can be multiple alleles for a given loci, however, bps are diploid meaning they only have two copies of chromosomes, thus can only have two alleles at a given loci for a single animal.

This whole toffee x albino thing has become a huge mess. I have one question. If someone paired a visual albino to a visual toffee does that mean that w.e visual morph that came out would be a toffino. Since both albino and the toffee are recessive, when paired together, they couldn't throw albinos or toffees, instead they'd throw visual toffinos and hets, correct?

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

This whole toffee x albino thing has become a huge mess. I have one question. If someone paired a visual albino to a visual toffee does that mean that w.e visual morph that came out would be a toffino. Since both albino and the toffee are recessive, when paired together, they couldn't throw albinos or toffees, instead they'd throw visual toffinos and hets, correct?

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It would be 100% toffino

Assumptions are not fact. We all know what they say about assuming.
Is it not compatible with Lav? The breedings are still being tried. It is possible. We do have to wait and see. Sure it may not be but we just don't know yet. It could be that the Toffee is an inbetween and can work with both. I am not the only one who thinks this can be possible.