Not to confuse this issue, but if you people are referring to the Gargoyles that Amir produced, they can also come from his het gargoyles X het gargoyle, which for all intents and purposes look like het reds to me. I bought a female a years ago and a male from him a while ago.
I did see Ralph Davis hatching them from a het red X cinnamon, and was very confused . Maybe he or someone else will clarify whats going on with that.