Are ball pythons a domesticated species?

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Originally Posted by harm286

And i dont leave them out for like 78494366 hours .... Just about 2 hours or if its wit me sleepin, about 8 hours ... No i take advice from u guys i listen .... But i promise i worrie about him 24/7 even now .... N i alwayz have to b there of course to let him roam n i dont try to leave him alone at all i am startin to get how temp humid. N light play a big facter in dere life

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Oh, ok. I totally miss understood you. thought you were talking like days alone by themselves. :oops: I was thinking you were crazy. lol. There is no way i'm keeping any part of my room at 92. That's a little too hot for me. That's why I only have them out for short periods of time. I don't want them to get cold. I'm glad you cleared that up a little bit :)

Harm,

Next time you post can it be in English?:gj:

i live in colorado its snowin out side now i think u would like a hot room lol
n pluz if my mom finds my snake out like dat she would kall me at work n tell me to kum get them eitha dat or she would kill them lol(really not funny) ... n i love my snakes very much i mean there both around 6 to 9 months old so i have to watch them they r krazy ... but again i keep dem around 80 to 85 im not gonna have a heat stroke i my own room u kno ... so datz alright right?

TMoore u actin like a hater lol ...
its how i type i didnt kno i had to ask u how i should type sir:colbert:

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Originally Posted by harm286

i live in colorado its snowin out side now i think u would like a hot room lol
n pluz if my mom finds my snake out like dat she would kall me at work n tell me to kum get them eitha dat or she would kill them lol(really not funny) ... n i love my snakes very much i mean there both around 6 to 9 months old so i have to watch them they r krazy ... but again i keep dem around 80 to 85 im not gonna have a heat stroke i my own room u kno ... so datz alright right?

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Um..Yeah that should be fine. But if you pick one up and he feels kinda cold. I'd get him to his heater/or heat pad. Just remember they don't hold body heat like us. They need to be near something warm when they get cold. I really don't see a problem sleeping with you, since we are 98.6, as long as you don't squish them. 80-85 is pretty warm though, so they should fine. I can't really tell you i know anybody that lets their snakes run freely. I guess its safe in your room. We might need a second opinion on that.

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Originally Posted by harm286

TMoore u actin like a hater lol ...
its how i type i didnt kno i had to ask u how i should type sir:colbert:

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"Gansta me aint haitin yo, I just be makin a request. This here thug aint use to readnin you shiz.":banana:

Most people who frequent this forum are grammatically accurate. It just took me quite some time to figure out what you were trying to say.

my good friends from SKALES N TAILS told me itz kool just wen they get big they might consider my box spring a home

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Originally Posted by harm286

my good friends from SKALES N TAILS told me itz kool just wen they get big they might consider my box spring a home

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What? Your mattress? no, that's not cool. You can't sleep on your mattress if there are snakes living in them. I've actually taken an escapee out of a mattress before, it's not fun. I know you can't get the inside of your mattress at 70% humidity. It would feel damp, and you would wake up feeling like you wet your drawers.

a reent sudty funod taht it doesnt meattr waht odrer the ltteers of a wrod are in , the olny ipmraotnt tihng is taht the fsirt and lsat ltteers are in the crrocet piostiosn

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Originally Posted by harm286

a reent sudty funod taht it doesnt meattr waht odrer the ltteers of a wrod are in , the olny ipmraotnt tihng is taht the fsirt and lsat ltteers are in the crrocet piostiosn

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If you write that way you sound uneducated.

Just saying.

but they said when they get big to consider that happenin

well sir i like being misunderstood ... like i work at a hotel so ummm yah

No hard feelings though tmoore ... I like u
no homo

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Originally Posted by harm286

a reent sudty funod taht it doesnt meattr waht odrer the ltteers of a wrod are in , the olny ipmraotnt tihng is taht the fsirt and lsat ltteers are in the crrocet piostiosn

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and that no letters are omitted.... ;)

lol

U betcha:)

Hmmm, my instinct is no, because they are not domesticated in the sense that a dog is. At the same time, they are lovely, tame pets (most of them! hehe).

That said I feel confident that if we turned all of our ball pythons loose tomorrow in their native homeland in Africa, they would survive just fine (with the possible exception of some color morphs, since they'd be more visable to predetors or whatever)

I saw this on another website , and it made me think of this thread:


"By definition, a pet is an animal that has been domesticated. Reptiles, however, are wild animals and retain all their wild instincts. To keep a reptile in captivity, you will need to understand his needs, both social and environmental.

Some would use that statement to argue that reptiles are not pets, but wild animals forced into captivity..

I argue that the definition of pet has no relation to domestication, though many domesticated animals are often kept as pets.

my snakes are my pets and i consider them family! they would eat before I would in a dire situation!! Anyone who has ever "made friends" (however you want to put that) with a wild garter snake as I have and has the pleasure of the levels of interaction i enjoy with my thamnophis can say that they are definitely more than just captive wild animals.

unlike most here I find myself thinking that people are trying to categorize a reptile's emotions and behaviors with that of a mammal. Yes BP have emotions and yes they are very smart BUT they cannot be trained. BP aren't tame? Balderdash! If my Bp's weren't tame I couldn't take them everywhere I do. They know that the pouch is their safe haven and they know that if I start walking quickly that they need to anchor themselves but they are in no way a domestic animal. They make wonderful pets but they still have primitive emotions and reactions.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

This is from wikipedia



The last one is the reason reptiles will never be concidered "Domestic".

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i think that about sums it up lol. not much of an opinion eh?

I could careless what wikipedia says, not everything wikipedia has is accurate. Now that's as far as i'm saying anything on this subject because everybody has their opinion.

I dont believe you could ever call a reptile tame. however I will say they can learn tolerance. which, IMO makes them such a desired pet. for an animal that will not tolerate human interaction is nothing more than a show piece, and personally if I wanted a show piece, I would pic something that doesn't need to be cleaned and fed.

Much of the discussion here reminded me of an article I read recently in SEED Magazine.

"I am a Rat and So Are You"

I voted NO.....but I do think there is potential for "domestication" of snake species in the long term as captive breeding continues. Domestication is more of a spectrum rather than a clear cut category as is the case with most things in biology.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Like I said cats don't recognize a social hiararchy. Sure they can tell one human from another and act accordingly but they do not recognize you as there leader. Like a dog will if treated properly.

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i don't know what kinds of experiences you have had with cats, but your generalization here doesn't hold water. my cats see me as their leader, they obey commands and act much like a dog would. they are waiting for me at the door when i get home, much like a dog would. One of my cats, Morgan, will seek me out for attention, as he'd rather spend his time in my lap, than napping somewhere else.

In order to be considered domesticated, an animal really has to be altered in temperment and behavior, at least a bit, from its wild ancestors. It also typically shows color/pattern changes. BPs only show color/pattern changes so far. Part of the reason they have not yet been domesticated is that people are not too fussed over breeding for temperment and behavior, yet. If a snake eats well, and it's a female, it's likely to be bred by most breeders.

Over time, this will change. Ball pythons will be selected for larger adult size/clutch sizes in females, docile temperment, and reliable feeding behavior. Once these traits are consistant in captive populations, I think it would be fair to consider them domesticated. The real tipping point will be when imported wild ball pythons become undesireable, because their behavior and appearance is not as predictable and not conducive to being a pet.

There are probably several species which should be considered domesticated, but currently are not:
Budgerigars and cockatiels, leopard geckos, and golden hamsters, for example.

There are also some domesticated species people don't commonly think of as domesticated: Ferrets, society finches, and koi fish, for instance.

I should add that domestication doesn't mean rendering an animal incapable of surviving in the wild, nor does it mean they look to us for leadership, or can learn from us--although in canines, it does manifest that way.

For an EXTREMELY interesting experiment on the nature of domestication, I refer you to this article on domesticated foxes (yes, domesticated):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox

The range of species we consider domesticated includes chickens (which obviously don't consider us to be in charge), hogs, horses, cattle, goats, alpaca, llamas, rats, mice, rabbits--the list goes on and on, and includes far more than dogs and cats.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I could careless what wikipedia says, not everything wikipedia has is accurate.

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Wikipedia has been shown to have greater accuracy, regardless of abundance of information(which it obviously has in greater quantity), than the encyclopedia britannica.

Domesticated, no. Genetically conditioned, a possibility. It may be posible to bread the worst qualities out of a snake, but training by any other means besides classical conditioning is impossible. These guys have a really small, primitive brain. They cannot develope the pathways to become domesticated. I think anyone who would dissect a reptile would see that they are primitive.

i believe those balls whose parents and grandparents were born in captivity are used to (for lack of a better phrase) living around humans and in captivity and therefore are prepared to live the same way. i believe in nuture over nature so whatever the snake was born in. he will be

Haven't read the pages and pages of other responses, but-

Dogs are domesticated, cats are partly domesticated. There is a difference between tame and domesticated- BPs are tame (at least, some are). Domesticated implies that the animal as a species is what it is because of human tampering (in the case of keeping). Dogs are not natural, they're a result of selective breeding of wolves by humans, and they are neotanized. They are not naturally occurring. Neither are house cats, but they are far newer and less domesticated. Snakes are not domesticated.

They are docile and tame, not domesticated, dont think they have the mental capacity to ever become domesticated either. They are more tamed by being brought up in an environment that conditions them to accept this living style as what they should do and expect.

Domestic animals are allowed to roam around a home or place with humans and are trained to do things such as go outside to go to the bathroom, sit, stay, use the litter box, etc.

Exotic animals stay in cages, pretty much. Their entire lives they have to stay in cages or they will escape and get loose.

Very simple answer...no BP's are not a domesticated animal.

Just note--dogs were not selectively bred by humans in any deliberate fashion. Their ancestors simply scavenged the leavings from groups of humans, and the ones that were less aggressive were tolerated and allowed to come closer--so they got more food, and were more successful. Thus, the domestication of the dog was more of an evolution of the dog to take better advantage of us, not us making the dog into something we wanted. Dogs are superb 'nest parasites'--they have learned us so well that we treat them like our own children--we feed and care for them, and it's all because they look cute, pay attention to us, and occasionally help us out.

Cats are fully domesticated animals. So are ferrets, lab rats, lab mice, domestic rabbits, chickens, cows, horses, farm pigs, goats, sheep, etc. The primary traits that set domestic animals apart from wild animals are an inherent reduction in aggression toward humans, and the ability to pay attention to and respond to human body language cues. Domestic animals are more passive, less nervous, and 'friendlier'. The neotenous traits and coat color variations they show appear to be a natural result of breeding for reduced human aggression. Whether it occurred naturally or was done deliberately by humans, the result is the same.

See the fox fur farm experiments for details--a domesticated breed of foxes was created, and it took surprisingly little time (only 40 years!), and came with MANY unexpected side effects.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts

This article also demonstrates why ball pythons aren't domesticated. That is not to say that we can't domesticate them! In fact, I encourage it. Don't just breed for looks--breed for temperament, and do it consistently. With selective breeding for temperament over the next 100 to 150 years, we should produce a significantly different animal--one that is far more trustworthy and consistent in its behavior, one that is better adapted to captive conditions--yes, one that is in fact domesticated. It will be better for reptile owners, and it will be better for the snakes themselves. There is no reason to 'keep them wild'--they will never go back to the wild, they and their offspring will always be captive. Changing them to be better pets can only benefit them.

I vote no.

We still accommodate them, not the other way around. That's domestication.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Thus, the domestication of the dog was more of an evolution of the dog to take better advantage of us, not us making the dog into something we wanted.

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Really? So we didn't selectively breed dogs for traits we wanted? I suppose the pointer dogs evolved to retrieve ducks as an advantage, rather than humans selectively breeding them to be better at doing chores for us.


Back on the topic, ball pythons are simply not domesticated. However, it's not out of the realm of possibility that through the numerous captive bred generations, a number of ball pythons have became ever so slightly more used to humans.

I had to vote no as well. I am not 100% sure that it would be possible to domesticate any reptile species. Sure they become used to us humans, and many of them are as tame as the dogs and/or cats that we keep, but there are just too many other criteria that don't fit right.

Omnibus--Of course we selectively bred dogs for a variety of purposes. We just didn't deliberately DOMESTICATE them. That happened as a result of natural human and dog interaction over time, not through a deliberate course of actions by either species. They evolved to become domesticated, in order to become the symbiotic species they are today. The original dogs looked much like dingos, much like feral dogs everywhere today--the medium-sized yellow dog. That's the natural dog prior to all selective breeding.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Omnibus--Of course we selectively bred dogs for a variety of purposes. We just didn't deliberately DOMESTICATE them. That happened as a result of natural human and dog interaction over time, not through a deliberate course of actions by either species. They evolved to become domesticated, in order to become the symbiotic species they are today. The original dogs looked much like dingos, much like feral dogs everywhere today--the medium-sized yellow dog. That's the natural dog prior to all selective breeding.

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All of this may be true but it may not be true. The problem with saying definitely one way or the other is that all we have to go on is fossils and modern genetics, fossils don't tell us much about how DOMESTICATED a species was or wasn't and the genetic record is muddied by thousands of years of selective breeding. That selective breeding makes it very hard to tell what actually happened with dogs. Its hotly debated to this day when, where and with what base species dogs were domesticated. Some even believe that the modern dog is the result of the domestication of 2 or 3 wild dogs species. At the end of the day I would have to agree that DOMESTICATION was just something that happened. Dogs were prone to it and so were humans. This can easily be seen in how easily a wild wolf can be integrated into a human family. Wolf hybrids being even easier and less than 1/4 wolf is basically a dog.

It kinda depends on what definition you think is right.. Here is a list of definitions off google I would say they fit some but not others. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...e&ved=0CAoQkAE

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

This is from wikipedia



The last one is the reason reptiles will never be concidered "Domestic".

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A skunk breeder told me some time ago that domestication also meant the animal had been bred in captivity and so many generations removed. I cant remember how many generations she said but it was somewhere around 7 to 10 years i think. then those final offspring could be considered domesticated.

She was fighting for a change in the law where IL is one of the few states that doesnt allow domestic skunks as pets.

I believe this may be true for most mammels but i dont think its possible to actually domesticate a reptile. They can be conditioned to expect certain things or to be comfortable with being handled but I think aside from them learning you are not a threat, they are not actually domesticated.

Many animals may legally fall into the domestic catagory if they fit all the classifications but there are also some that will naturally fit all those same classifications after only being in captivity a very short time.

I think the classification of "Exotic" applies to snakes. When you own an exotic you become tuned to their natural behaviors and respond to them, if you are smart about it. You learn their body language and preferences and tailor your reactions and care to that. In doing so, they react in a "tame" way as long as you respect them for who they are and what they want and don't want. They can 'bond' to you in a similar way than any exotic can. You provide food when they're hungry and don't bother them when you shouldn't. They will learn to trust you and recognise you. I was very interested in exotic cats for awhile and learned a lot from that. Even tigers can form a strong bond with their owners and be very tame with them. But you can never lose respect for what they are and must be fully in tune with them. Are they domestic? No way in hell. Can you have a wonderful relationship with one? If you are always aware and approach with respect, absolutely.

what about the kid that has been sleeping with his big python for years ? anyone read about ? there's even a video.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...e/5507595.html

here's the video with the kid riding and hugging the 5metre burmese python :
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=52450702

the burm lives in the house with the rest of the family where she has her own room.
i must say she's friendlier then the cat i have at mother's home.
i think there's a difference between making an animal Obey orders like dogs and forming a bond with their owners. snakes won't obey orders but they can form a bond with their owners of course they will never consider you their leader but even your best friend and your wife/girlfriend don't consider you their leader(well not always) but that doesn't mean there isn't a bond.

if domisticated means obeying orders like dogs or recocnize you like their leader or the other 6rule , then snakes are not.

but if domisticated means that they can form a bond with their owners (like i think it is) then they are.

being tame is another thing, for me its when animal won't run away when you go near him like he saw a monster coming to tear him apart . or when the animal won't start roaring/hissing(or whatever sound) at you by aproaching him and attack you the next second.

Scanning through this thread, it appears a lot of people are confusing "domesticated" with "pet". A brahma bull is domesticated, but I wouldn't want one as a pet. Ferrets are domesticated and a lot of people think they make good pets but I'm not so sure a ferret is a good pet.

OTOH, ball pythons are not domesticated, but IMO they make pretty nifty pets.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I don't see that at all in many animals that have long been considered to be 'domesticated' Even a quick glance at most poultry will show that many of the ducks, geese or turkeys are NOT significantly different then their wild counterparts. In some cases, not even the paint job is different. The only difference being that some of them are living in the wild, and some of them are living in farmyards... Physically, many of them are identical.

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This is from page, like, five or something, but I didn't feel like finishing reading through to see if it was addressed, I've got to go to BED, it's almost midnight over here in Chicago :D. Anyways, as someone who was severely and probably unhealthily obsessed with raising and breeding chickens for several years, they come in an unbelievable array or sizes and colors.

http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/day_..._chickens.html
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/B....html#Chickens

Same goes for ducks, geese, turkeys, whatever.

And maybe this is just me, but I think it takes a looooong time to be able to say an animal is domesticated. I wish I could find were I read this, but a book I've read said something about humans not domesticating anything for the past few thousand years. Maybe true, maybe not, but I voted no.

I'm dumbfounded on how anyone would consider a snake to be a domesticated species. Being CB does not mean it's domesticated. It took dogs thousands of years to get where they are now and even then once in while one goes lupid.

Geesh.

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Originally Posted by mrmertz

I'm dumbfounded on how anyone would consider a snake to be a domesticated species. Being CB does not mean it's domesticated. It took dogs thousands of years to get where they are now and even then once in while one goes lupid.

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People are defining "domesticated" wrong.

Something that's domesticated is something that

1) is tractable and

2) provides a benefit to mankind.

"Domesticated" does not equate to "pet".

Dogs and cats are domesticated and also make great pets. That's possibly where the confusion is coming in.

As I said above, a bull is domesticated but I wouldn't want one as a pet. Ferrets are domesticated - hunters used to train them to flush prey out of their burrows. Llamas. Emus. Anything categorized as livestock is domesticated.

Now there are a lot of perfectly fine pets that aren't domesticated. Parrots. Goldfish. Hermit crabs. Lizards. Guinea pigs (unless you're raising them for meat, hrm, they may qualify as domesticated). Hamsters.

Oh yeah. Snakes. Cool pet, yes. Domesticated, no.

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Originally Posted by Shadera

I don't consider them domesticated. Neither are my parrots.

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I don't consider them domesticated either. Neither are my parents.

Snakes arn't domesticated but I think they could be domesticated if some one tried to do it through selective breeding of the most docile snakes in their collection. It was done with the Russian fox

http://www.sibfox.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

I don't know if this has been said before but snakes do have benifits to humans aside from companionship, they could be bred for their meat and skin.