Jen Harrison Split from Big Daddy's Wholesale Thread

tasha, you seem to have overlooked my request for you to post YOUR emails to the doctor, including headers and footers.

You see, I KNOW you have a serious hard on for jen. That's all fine and dandy.

I also KNOW that you don't always play fair.

I want to see how your worded your request to the doctor.

You're only one step from jen as far as I'm concerned and not trustworthy.

So, how about you post those emails? Unless of course you have something to hide? Some agenda of your own perhaps....

I will happily forward a copy of the email I sent to the Doctor - where would you like me to send it?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

tasha, you seem to have overlooked my request for you to post YOUR emails to the doctor, including headers and footers.

You see, I KNOW you have a serious hard on for jen. That's all fine and dandy.

I also KNOW that you don't always play fair.

I want to see how your worded your request to the doctor.

You're only one step from jen as far as I'm concerned and not trustworthy.

So, how about you post those emails? Unless of course you have something to hide? Some agenda of your own perhaps....

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Calm Down Sherlock! One scumbag at a time!!! No Offence Tosha..:rolleye2:

Right here in this thread. All correspondence if you please.

thanks

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

I will happily forward a copy of the email I sent to the Doctor - where would you like me to send it?

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To; Jasballs@msn.com
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Right here in this thread. All correspondence if you please.

thanks

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As I said - since the Dr. has asked I will not be posting his emails any further - I will send them to one person whom I can trust not to repost them to verify whatever you need. I will be happy to email you a copy of the email I sent to the Dr. as I said - just let me know where to send it to - it doesn't say anything that I haven't already question Jen about on line.


John no offense I would love to send them to you -- but I think you would have a field day with the second one and I'm positive you would have to post it.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

As I said - since the Dr. has asked I will not be posting his emails any further - I will send them to one person whom I can trust not to repost them to verify whatever you need. I will be happy to email you a copy of the email I sent to the Dr. as I said - just let me know where to send it to - it doesn't say anything that I haven't already question Jen about on line.


John no offense I would love to send them to you -- but I think you would have a field day with the second one and I'm positive you would have to post it.

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I sure would. So should you! It may save some one that has bought and or traded with little miss bigdaddy!

tosha, is there a way that u can kinda put it in ur own words so that others will at least have an idea about it... cause it is kinda hard considerin that u have it, but are not allowed to share which kinda sux but understandable

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Originally Posted by babygerl3094

tosha, is there a way that u can kinda put it in ur own words so that others will at least have an idea about it... cause it is kinda hard considerin that u have it, but are not allowed to share which kinda sux but understandable

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This would be bad.

Send them all to wpollock3@yahoo.com

I will NOT post the docs emails.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This would be bad.

Send them all to wpollock3@yahoo.com

I will NOT post the docs emails.

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granted, but wouldnt it still be the same where theres X people who got to see the proof but no one else... and that will leave everyone else where we still are... he said she said game :weirdface

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Originally Posted by babygerl3094

granted, but wouldnt it still be the same where theres X people who got to see the proof but no one else... and that will leave everyone else where we still are... he said she said game :weirdface

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If you want to read this email its in the thread over at fauna ;).It was copied and pasted and will be there forever now.

tasha sent me the email that she posted here and the one she sent him but without headers or footers and did not send the second set of emails.

The first pair as they are, are worthless, which I let her know.

Someone with nothing to hide would most likely not be so secretive.

Makes me wonder.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

tasha sent me the email that she posted here and the one she sent him but without headers or footers and did not send the second set of emails.

The first pair as they are, are worthless, which I let her know.

Someone with nothing to hide would most likely not be so secretive.

Makes me wonder.

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I forwarded the exact email that I received from Dr. Jacobsen which included my original email to him in his response - I know nothing of headers and footers but if they where there from the original emails - I would assume they would be there from the forwarded ones as well - I have since sent Wes screen shots of the emails - if someone wants to walk me through some special way I am supposed to send these - then be my guest - I have nothing to hide. I have said that I will only share the complete emails with someone I trust - and Wes is not that person - I have obliged by sending him only what has been previously published as well as my original email - just to show that I did not railroad Jen in any way as he seems to think I did.

Does this mean that Jen was following what the vet said or was not following what the vet said?

According to Jen, she was.

According to Tosha (with the email she posted) she wasn't.

This is getting screwy!

Think I have the email header thing figured out and forwarded to Wes.

According to Dr. Jacobsen - she is not following his advice. She may be claiming to follow the advice of either Dr. Gordon - who didn't really know what was going on and referred her to Dr. Jacobsen and is now pretty much a sample collector - or the other Vet/second victim - who doesn't really know what's going on as well and is pretty much relying on Jen for advice. Dr. Jacobsen is the specialist - the one with the knowledge the one doing the research - the one that is telling her what she doesn't want to hear so she is ignoring him.

I have too much of a headache to read all of this. In response to belvis -- my response to you came before all of this really came down on this forum. It was after that PM that I became fully aware of everything and decided to withdraw all potential sales discussions. Look at the dates and times on those PM's.

I will repeat what I posted on the BOI:

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Keep in mind that the info I get from Dr. Jacobsen has been coming to me through Dr. Gordon. He has never spoken to me directly or sent me any kind of paperwork -- which has been the big problem. The last thing he said was that the test for OPMV was negative -- but then in information from Dr. Brodnik, it came out that it can take up to 8 weeks for antibodies to develop, therefore nullifying any test results we got because the sample females had only been sick for 3 weeks -- therefore may not have developed antibodies at all -- and hence the negative result.

No one has purchased anything from me. The babies were reserved by 3 people, which I have since cancelled.

Dr. Gordon imported and recommended the vaccine -- as it was proven to stop OPMV in multiple cases in Europe, and thus was sent to me by a German vet who had experience with it working in this manner first hand. If you Google it, you will read it for yourself.

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In case you haven't noticed, almost every med we use on ball pythons isn't labeled for reptiles -- it is labeled for birds, cats, dogs, cattle, pigs, etc. Vets are the ones that know when and how they can be used for non-listed animals. Hence the use of Colombovac in reptiles. In my research of OPMV, I printed off multiple cases in the UK, Germany, and Australia where collections were hit by the virus and when all remaining animals were vaccinated with 0.2cc of Colombovac regardless of weight, the infection stopped cold and did not continue -- and they never had a problem after that; they are all keeping and breeding successfully years later, with no recurrances of illness. Including one very dear friend of Dan and Colette Sutherland -- who experienced it first hand as well as colleagues of hers, and she is the one who put us in touch with her vet to get the vaccine. I brought everything I printed to Dr. Gordon, who made the call to order it and use it. You do have to remember that I am working with 3 different vets -- not every single thing went through all 3 of them. Especially considering that Dr. Jacobsen never responded to e-mails, never called me, never mailed me anything, and barely responded to Dr. Gordon when pressed for information. When we submitted our samples in January, we were told we'd have results in 2 weeks. It has now been months, and we're still not getting as much info as we need.

When I got the clearance that my babies were just fine and my animals would still be breedable, it came from Dr. Gordon and Dr. Brodnik. As mentioned, Dr. Jacobsen never responds to anything. I only get info from him through Dr. Gordon, which is why I believed it was sound info.

As previously mentioned, no animals have left my collection since September of last year. I have not recieved anything donated by anyone AT ALL. You can verify this with those that offered to do so. The only new animals to have come in are animals that I purchased after being told it was just fine to do so by 2 different vets. They are in a separate room from my established collection -- which pretty much doesn't matter at this point any more. Am I selling my babies? No. Am I breeding any more? Not right now. Do I know what I'm going to do? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

the one that is telling her what she doesn't want to hear so she is ignoring him.

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Actually no, he hasn't told me squat. He has not responded to any phone calls or e-mails from either myself or Dr. Gordon. The only time he advised against the vaccine was way back in the very beginning when I first contacted him in approximately November. That was before he had ever recieved any samples from us or had heard a single word about this case. That is why Dr. Gordon made the call that he did later, after doing his own research on OPMV.

This is an Australian forum discussing OPMV -- I have copied and pasted a few posts that are related to what I have been saying:

( http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/g...n-44092/page-3 )

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HerpDoc
Regular Member Join Date: Dec-06
Location: Melbourne
Age: 27
Posts: 29

Biopsies on live animals may be useful but hard to achieve. Best area is lung tissue and this is technically difficult in snakes and obviously would result in a fair amount of trauma. Other issues with biopsy are that the virus maybe atypical in its behaviour, ie living in other tissue and may be missed by biopsy. In the United States can be diagnosed anti-mortem with a haemagglutintaion inhibition test that looks for antibodies. This however is not an indication of active infection but only means expose to the virus has occurred and a rise in antibody titre is required for diagnosis of active infection. Snakes take about 8 weeks to seroconvert so if they are tested during this time they may be falsely identified as negative.
As far as transmission is concerned the main mode is considered to be airbone with contaminated utensils and cage furniture also playing a significant role so the key to prevention is HYGIENE. Cant stress this enough, this also includes good quarantine protocols and controlling ectoparasites.

__________________
Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc
Veterinary Resident Healesville Sanctuary
Special Interest Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery

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The bolded sentence is exactly why the negative test result from Dr. Jacobsen needs to be thrown out and another test done on new samples from the two snakes that were sick longer and survived. The females used were only sick for 3 weeks therefore most likely had no antibody development, thus the negative result.

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adbacus
Regular Member Join Date: Jul-06
Location: Albury
Age: 31
Posts: 850

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Originally Posted by xycom
Have any cases been found in wild specimens?
Would a good herp vet be able to organise tests on suspected animals?

1. Depending on who you talk to, the theorists out there believe that the disease originiated in Australia. I prefer to believe in conventional thinking that it was an introduced disease. I have not seen any papers or documents out there that suggest that it has managed to get out in the wild. There have been no studies I know of out there to suggest that it is out there. However, there has been a huge decline in the presence of herps and Australian Native Flora and fauna within the last 30 odd years.

2. Definitive tests on animals at this point in time involve in killing the animal. The only reliable method I have been told of diagnosis is through tissue histology. I have suggested to a few people that modified ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immuno Sorbed Assay) or PCR (polymerase Chain Reaction) tests may be beneficial and would not necessarily kill the animal. The issue with this is that the tests require specific keyed DNA for the causative agents which cause IBD and OPMV. The dna viral strands themselves require to be isolated. At this point, the actual identification of key strands themselves are not 100% and more research needs to be done.

I am still waiting for anyone who might be able to give more information on the use of Colombovac and it's efficacy and viability as it is an APMV (Avian Paramyxovirus) Vaccine.

__________________
Waiting here. Sitting in the Dark, Waiting for the Lynch Mobs and Witch Hunters.

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Considering that reptiles and birds are very closely related, this is why people chose to try the vaccine in reptile OPMV cases in Europe.

This is a quote from another related website, where we got much of our info from:

( http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV17.htm )

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A hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) assay has been developed to measure antibody produced against OPMV (Jacobson et al., 1981), however in experiments, some snakes produced no antibodies some weeks after infection and others actually died before any antibodies appeared. Hence a negative HI assay cannot be taken to exclude the possibility an OPMV infection. It appears that in some snakes OPMV antibodies form about 8 weeks after infection.

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This is the article about the successful use of Colombovac in stopping OPMV -- I e-mailed John months ago when we first started suspecting this virus, and he confirmed that his collection is still doing well and that he has not had an outbreak since:

( http://sidewinder78.tripod.com/TheSi...anch/id31.html )

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VIRUS INFECTION IN MY SNAKE COLLECTION
John Bakker

In October 1988 I bought a number of young snakes from a breeder at a snake show. Those were the only snakes I bought that day, other than that I inspected snakes for several people who wanted to buy them. I also sexed a few snakes by means of probing. After I got home I housed the young snakes separately in small boxes. All went well the first few months. The snakes ate well and grew rapidly, but early February 1989 I found a snake (Elaphe Helena) dead that I have had for a number of years.
In a period of about twelve hours this snake lost a lot of weight en was severely dehydrated. In the next two days four more snakes died. According to the autopsy report all the snakes died of pneumonia (a lot of mucus in the lungs). All the snakes were treated as a precautionary measure, but after a few days I found six snakes dead and six more the day after that. All the snakes that died were good eaters, were healthy but all died within a twelve hour period. They all lost a lot of weight all were dehydrated. All the snakes showed a peculiar behavior before they died. They appeared to be very edgy and aggressive and moved very fast within their enclosures. I took a snake to an animal hospital in Utrecht where Marja Kik examined it and a PARAMIXOS virus was found in the snakes brain. This virus is similar to the virus found in pigeons and chickens. I was advised to keep all my snakes in separate enclosures and to disinfect all materials, used for treatment, and myself with FORMALINE 4% after every visit to my snake room. Now all I could do was wait. According to the hospital there was no known treatment or medicine. Professor Zwart was in the U.S.A at this time attending a congress about this virus, so I could not consult with him about a possible treatment. In the next two weeks a large number of snakes died so I decided to consult Walter Getreuer of SERPO-ZOO in Delft. I then decided to inject the remainder of my snakes with COLOMBOVAC, 0.2 cc for each snake despite its size and weight. This medicine has been used by my father in the pigeon sport as a preventive treatment for young pigeons for many years. The price of one injection at that time was about HFL 1,35. After a week all my snakes looked and behaved normal and not a single snake died. In total I had lost 40 snakes to this virus. By September 1989 all my snakes were in perfect condition. To this day I still dont know who was responsible for bringing infected snakes to the show. I later heard that a few other snake keepers were hit by this virus. Snakes most perceptive to this virus are Lampropeltis, Boa, Python, Vipera, Crotalus and Asian Elaphe species. This virus hardly ever infects North American Elaphe species. I have no scientific proof that my treatment cured the snakes, but you dont have much choice when all your snakes are dying on you. Youll try anything to save your snakes and in my case it seemed to have worked. In the years after this period I have been approached by a number of snake keepers with the same problem (also through SERPO-ZOO). I advised them all to treat their snakes with COLOMBOVAC and I have had nothing but positive response. Even now in 2001 I have been asked to advise on a number of cases. Because new cases keep popping up in the literature (especially in the USA) about this virus in rattlesnake species, keeping this treatment in mind may be a good thing.

John Bakker

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So this is the first you've heard from Dr. Jacobson since you sent him the samples? Does it change your mind at all given what he said about this unknown virus and what he thinks should be done with the animals? Have you contacted him since this thread?

Jen - if you have no contact with the Dr. then stop quoting him and his works and pretending like he's your new best friend. Its NOT OPMV. Stop pretending like you know what you are doing and what you are talking about because you don't! You are once again throwing out a bunch of lies and misinformation to suit your agenda - JUST STOP.

Tosha, how do you KNOW it is not OPMV...your are stating things as fact just like she is.

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

Tosha, how do you KNOW it is not OPMV...your are stating things as fact just like she is.

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That's what the specialist says it's not OPMV it's a new virus that still needs to be studied.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

That's what the specialist says it's not OPMV it's a new virus that still needs to be studied.

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I am not in agreement with Jen Harrison and the path she has chosen, but then again unless I find myself in her situation I can hardly be judgemental about her until all the facts have been revealed.

On the other hand I can not sit by and watch other people taking jabs at her using the same things they are accusing her of to fuel their fire!

He actually says in the E-mail that they have found no evidence that her snakes are infected with paramyxovirus. That does not say that he "knows" her snakes were not infected with paramyxovirus! Sounds like a case of someone reading what they want to read instead of what is in front of them!

In conclusion the results are:
Tosha_Mc = same credibility as she is claiming Jen has!

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I am not in agreement with Jen Harrison and the path she has chosen, but then again unless I find myself in her situation I can hardly be judgemental about her until all the facts have been revealed.

On the other hand I can not sit by and watch other people taking jabs at her using the same things they are accusing her of to fuel their fire!

He actually says in the E-mail that they have found no evidence that her snakes are infected with paramyxovirus. That does not say that he "knows" her snakes were not infected with paramyxovirus! Sounds like a case of someone reading what they want to read instead of what is in front of them!

In conclusion the results are:
Tosha_Mc = same credibility as she is claiming Jen has!

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On top of him saying there is not evidence of the paramyxovirus - he does actually say - that this is the new virus. She actually at one point acknowledged it was a new virus - Dr. Gordon (according to Jen) says that the reason Dr Jacobsen is not being forthcoming with information is because he wants full credit for the research of the new virus. She is actually arguing both sides depending on what suits her. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

On top of him saying there is not evidence of the paramyxovirus - he does actually say - that this is the new virus. She actually at one point acknowledged it was a new virus - Dr. Gordon (according to Jen) says that the reason Dr Jacobsen is not being forthcoming with information is because he wants full credit for the research of the new virus. She is actually arguing both sides depending on what suits her. :rolleyes:

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Again more of what you want to read instead of what he wrote. He states that they have identified a new virus. Can multiple viruses be present in the same animal? So you assume that since a new virus has been identified that it was the only one found?

With this Dr. Jacobsen not being forthcoming with information due to an issue dealing with personal gain I would have to count anything he puts out on this topic as suspect until all research information is brought to light! Also at the point were you give him the assumption that Jen has been selling sick snakes any real vet would be releasing information concerning this new Virus as part of their duty to preserve the life of future animals. I would be pretty irate if one of my snakes come down with the same thing and due to this doctor sitting on the information about this virus, no treatments have been developed.

Good job you just discredited your own source of information!

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I repeatedly asked every vet working on this case (including Dr. Jacobsen in Florida -- who is THE leading veterinarian researcher on OPMV) if it would be safe to incubate the eggs or if they should be discarded. Each and every time I got the same answer -- yes, the eggs would be fine, as the virus doesn't transmit from mother to embryo. So, when they were laid, I asked them one more time -- got the same answer -- and kept them.

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When I am told by the one person that knows and understands this virus better than anyone on the planet (Dr. Jacobsen) that the babies are just fine, I tend to believe him.

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Especially considering that Dr. Jacobsen never responded to e-mails, never called me, never mailed me anything, and barely responded to Dr. Gordon when pressed for information.

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I am confused how can someone tell you that the babies will be fine if he never communicates with you :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

Again more of what you want to read instead of what he wrote. He states that they have identified a new virus. Can multiple viruses be present in the same animal? So you assume that since a new virus has been identified that it was the only one found?

With this Dr. Jacobsen not being forthcoming with information due to an issue dealing with personal gain I would have to count anything he puts out on this topic as suspect until all research information is brought to light! Also at the point were you give him the assumption that Jen has been selling sick snakes any real vet would be releasing information concerning this new Virus as part of their duty to preserve the life of future animals. I would be pretty irate if one of my snakes come down with the same thing and due to this doctor sitting on the information about this virus, no treatments have been developed.

Good job you just discredited your own source of information!

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From his emails - remember I have two of them not just the one that was posted - it is clear that the non-cooperative on is not Dr. Jacobsen. That aside - when the leading specialist on OMPV says he can't find a trace of OMPV in her snakes I would tend to believe him. When he says it's a new virus that is still being researched I would tend to believe him. Jen was the one that said he was aware that these snakes were good to go out into the community - (see Deborah's post about all the communications) one would assume if he gave his ok for them to be released into the community - this would not have been news to him. I'd think you'd be more irate if you'd gotten one of those snakes from Jen and have it wipe out your collection.

We can play he said she said all day long - but - it is more than clear that Jen should not be releasing snakes into the community - if this stops her than all the better. If it wakes some people up to her true character - then all the better.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I am confused how can someone tell you that the babies will be fine if he never communicates with you :confuzd:

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My question exactly-I can't believe no one else has said anything about this. Jen repeatedly said that ALL 3 vets told her it would be fine-and now she says that Dr. Jacobsen never communicates with her. So which is it?

Well I am not one to post much on the forum but read threads on here a few times a day. I have been following this thread since it began, and I have came up with my own decsicions about a few things. Jen I don't doubt information you have said about what your vets are telling you. I have seen vets change there story when they are made aware that more people are involved in a problem. I don't know if that is what happened here or not and know one claims that it has happened in this case. I am just saying it is possible. I also believe you are trying to do the right thing. You said you wasn't selling any offspring this year and watching to see if anymore outbreaks happen. I don't see how you can be expected to do any thing else. I am also seeing that for what ever reason that Tosha is just trying to drag you threw the dirt every chance she can. I can't seem to figure out why.Which has made me put a note out by her name to never have any dealings with. Weather that be asking advice or making a purchase if you even sell animals I don't know. I have just seen enuff from you to know I don't need any drama like you in my life. Gloryhound is the only one toward the end of this thread that has made any since to me. Gloryhound has looked at all the information and has seen what is going on here. I am still kinda new to the forum and already have seen several threads just like this one, where several of you just slam and drag people threw the dirt. WHY ? I have tried getting a few friends to join this forum with me and they all have told me the same thing. No ! No ! H*** No! If I have been told once I guess I have been told a hundred times by several people that there is way to many threating people on this forum. And now I am seeing it. So with me still being new and seeing this. How many others are doing the same and just leaving the forum to find other peaceful forums. Now bp.net is no where near as bad as ks forum but seems to be following the same trend here lately.

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Originally Posted by tncorns

I also believe you are trying to do the right thing. You said you wasn't selling any offspring this year and watching to see if anymore outbreaks happen. I don't see how you can be expected to do any thing else.

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http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=110699

Do some research before picking sides.. LOL!

So if you bought snakes from Wyatt it would stand to conclusion that there is a possibility that your snakes are carriers as well wouldn't it? If just one of these snakes turns out to be a carrier and it was dormant it could be infecting your collection which you wouldn't know about until later. Shouldn't you stop producing and selling your animals until you know for sure what is being dealt with and you can have your animals tested? If I bought an animal and it was discovered later he had a devastating virus I would be very weary of my own animals, but of course that wouldn't fit your agenda would it? Maybe you should follow your own advice since you apparatently have all the answers.

Also about your statement regarding no law about emails and confidentiality are you saying that doctors, lawyers etc... can breach confidentiality if they just email people. Wow who would have thought it was so easy. I saw a show where a guy confessed to a murder to his lawyers but they couldn't say anything about it until he died (I believe he said they could reveal then) so an innocent guy sat in jail for decades until the true murderer died. I wish those lawyers had known they could have just emailed it.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=110699

Do some research before picking sides.. LOL!

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Thanks, Jasballs. I believe she said she will not sell any animals this year. I know she had some for sale but has recently decided against selling them. I plan to take her word for that. So I guess that is the end of that until it is proven that she has sold a animal.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

From his emails - remember I have two of them not just the one that was posted - it is clear that the non-cooperative on is not Dr. Jacobsen. That aside - when the leading specialist on OMPV says he can't find a trace of OMPV in her snakes I would tend to believe him. When he says it's a new virus that is still being researched I would tend to believe him. Jen was the one that said he was aware that these snakes were good to go out into the community - (see Deborah's post about all the communications) one would assume if he gave his ok for them to be released into the community - this would not have been news to him. I'd think you'd be more irate if you'd gotten one of those snakes from Jen and have it wipe out your collection.

We can play he said she said all day long - but - it is more than clear that Jen should not be releasing snakes into the community - if this stops her than all the better. If it wakes some people up to her true character - then all the better.

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Yes. Until you can actually put that second letter up her no evidence exists that you have it! I could actually create an e-mail if I wanted to that can look like it came from anyone I want. All I need is the E-mail address! Yes it will include headers and footers. Might take some time, but I can do it. I could forward it to other people for verification. Until the good doctor shows up here and starts posting it is all he said she said and gets no one anywhere!

On a side note if you were actually smart enough to read the sticky at the top of the inquiries/Feedback section it specifies Personal experiences.

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We would like to encourage you to research any sellers that you may be thinking about doing business with at the BOI. The BOI (or Board of Inquiry) is a forum already established on another website that deals specfically with vendors in the herp community.

However, we also encourage you to share any PERSONAL positive or negative experiences that you may have had on our Inquiries/Feedback forum.

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So what personal dealings have you had with Jen Harrison? If we actually had moderators doing their job the Big Daddy thread and this one would never have gotten as far as they have. For some reason the moderators have determined that the rules do not apply in all cases! Go figure!

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Originally Posted by tncorns

Thanks, Jasballs. I believe she said she will not sell any animals this year. I know she had some for sale but has recently decided against selling them. I plan to take her word for that. So I guess that is the end of that until it is proven that she has sold a animal.

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What do you think changed her mind to sell them? answer; She got caught with her pants down!:salute:

Simmer down there Gloryhound. On your last post you became abrasive to a forum member and dissed the mods. Perhaps you ought to go back to posting on Jenn's forum at the TSK site.
I think it is good to allow prospective snake buyers to learn where danger may lurk- and Jenn was going to sell this year until she was confronted. This would not be a smart move for someone who professes to love her snakes.
Does Tosha have an agenda? I have no idea and I don't care; this is about Jenn's snakes and Jenn's future business and Jenn's integrity as a keeper. People in the herp business succeed or not based on their personal and professional ethics and Jenn knows this and this is why she pulled her ads and contacted the buyers who were going to purchase her snakes (of dubious health).
Gloryhound, I see you are starting up a herp business. You might want to take care to not offend and put off your future professional cohort group.

I think the snakes Jen has in her posession should be kept in quarantine for at least a few years. If someone wants to send her donation animals, I say pick a friend of hers, and send anything destined for Jen, to a safehouse for a few years.

I keep seeing the words new virus over and over again. If it is new, how can anyone know how it reacts, and if any snake from her collection, adult or baby, is safe to sell?

I would tell her to clam up for a few years, do not buy or sell anything, if donations come in, keep them at a different location, preferably in a different state.

Three years, come back and see what happens.

By the way, what snakes do you have in your collection now? If it is a bunch of normals and a few morphs, might be easier to take the quick way out and dispose of them???????? It sounds harsh, but the "possiblility" of getting a sick animal is enough to make me stay away from anyone. This thread, as it stands, is a death sentence for your business.

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If we actually had moderators doing their job the Big Daddy thread and this one would never have gotten as far as they have. For some reason the moderators have determined that the rules do not apply in all cases!

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Sounds like a complaint to me! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Sounds like a complaint to me! :rolleyes:

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Agreed! Sounds like a bunch of BullSHRAP to me...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Agreed! Sounds like a bunch of BullSHRAP to me...:rolleyes:

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Shrap= CRAP! Sorry mispelled it I think?

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

...If we actually had moderators doing their job the Big Daddy thread and this one would never have gotten as far as they have. For some reason the moderators have determined that the rules do not apply in all cases! Go figure!

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Gloryhound: Read TOS (legal version) 3.b. This will explain what the responsibility of the mods are regarding the 'policing' of threads. When you have finished becoming educated, please feel free to apologize for your ignorance.

ok Jasballs I see that happened 10 pages ago. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have brought that up but why is this thread still going strong with the same old drama. When is enuff going to be enuff. Man I hope when I start breeding ball pythons in a few years that nothing bad happens to me. And on another note, The people trying to ban importing and state to state transporting are really lovin threads like this. Just more fuel for banning what we all love.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Shrap= CRAP! Sorry mispelled it I think?

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ah don't ask me about mispelling, I am French :8:

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Originally Posted by tncorns

ok Jasballs I see that happened 10 pages ago. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have brought that up but why is this thread still going strong with the same old drama. When is enuff going to be enuff. Man I hope when I start breeding ball pythons in a few years that nothing bad happens to me. And on another note, The people trying to ban importing and state to state transporting are really lovin threads like this. Just more fuel for banning what we all love.

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Since it happened all of ten pages ago.. I'll let it be now. Jen sell me your snakes.. PLEASE!! Better tencorns??

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Originally Posted by tncorns

ok Jasballs I see that happened 10 pages ago. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have brought that up but why is this thread still going strong with the same old drama. When is enuff going to be enuff. Man I hope when I start breeding ball pythons in a few years that nothing bad happens to me. And on another note, The people trying to ban importing and state to state transporting are really lovin threads like this. Just more fuel for banning what we all love.

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I'm not certain you understand. All of this is happening because Jenn chose to start selling her snakes again. Thank goodness that some members of this forum recognized this and called her on it. This drama is going on because Jenn can't seem to do what she knows she must do.
Enough will be enough when people like Jenn stop trying to transport animals over state lines that have questionable health. I agree with you, Jenn is helping the the fascists with their ban.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Shrap= CRAP! Sorry mispelled it I think?

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Oh look who's full of it now!! ;)





:rofl:

I'm done with this thread my point was not taken. No its not fine to buy from her. She should lay low for awhile I agree with you there. But I also think this thread should stop repeating its self over and over again. Jasball go back read the end of my last post,stop think about it and look at this thread. I have seen alot of threads by you and know you are a smart person and you will see what I'm saying. All that is happening here is beating a died horse and adding fuel to another fire that can be used against the hobby. I believe everything good that was going to come from this thread already has.

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Originally Posted by tncorns

I have seen alot of threads by you and know you are a smart person

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Wrong again! I'm one of the dumbest people you'd ever meet.. And not ashamed to admit it.. I read the last part of your post. Its poppycock.. None of those people would show there faces on a reptile forum..

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Originally Posted by starmom

Gloryhound: Read TOS (legal version) 3.b. This will explain what the responsibility of the mods are regarding the 'policing' of threads. When you have finished becoming educated, please feel free to apologize for your ignorance.

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I will not apologize for the lack of ethics this whole thread has written on it! Each section on this board has a purpose and this one was set aside for Personal experiences with breeders or other board members. I have seen very little posted here concerning any personal experiences with Jen Harrison's business. This thread has degraded to nothing more than he said she said. Oh who is the most almighty righteous! It is a poor example of what I believe a supportive ball Python community should be! I believe we are here to help and learn. This thread has no learning aspect about it. Know body here can prove they really "Know" the Truth! No one has the actual credentials on this thread to understand viruses and how they affect reptiles! (Or at least they are not saying/proving so!) If the moderators of the board do not like it when I state my opinion of the job they are doing it doesn't change my opinion of the job they are doing. If they believe my ethics are poor since I stand behind what I say, then shame on them not me. I would hate to deal with any breeder who won't speak their mind for fear of what others might say! Makes me think they have something to hide!

A Note From the Staff:

It seems like it's time to step in here and remind folks of a few things. Threads like this are NEVER pretty nor pleasant. But they serve their own purpose at a site like this, just as much as the basic husbandry issues. It boils down to a serious case of not being able to please everyone all the time. If we banned all such discussions then we'd be accussed of protecting bad guys and exposing our less-informed members to potential scams and/or high risk animals. When we allow such a discussion to continue, we're accused of playing favorites to one side or another. (It really seems to depend on which side appears to be "winning" at any given moment as to who we must be favoring.) Or we're accused of not doing our jobs.

I guarantee you, we work harder on threads like this than we do almost anywhere else on the site. They have to be constantly monitored and every little snarky remark weighed and measured and determined whether or not it should be infracted and/or edited or whatnot. We work our asses off to stay as fair and impartial as possible, while still allowing as much freedom of discussion as we can.

It's not up to any single member to decide when a thread should "die". If you don't like it, don't open it. There are TONS of GREAT forums on here where we could really use your help and participation. The "Inquiry Forum" is just one TINY little part of this site.

I'm sure if you look around hard enough, you can find a site with few enough members that it doesn't have any conflict and everyone gets along hunky-dory. It MIGHT even have some daily activity, if you're lucky. You can't compare BP.net to a site like that, because we have thousands of members and hundreds of people participating daily. We can't make people "be nice" to each other, but we do our darndest to uphold our Terms of Service and Site Rules so that the overall atmosphere of the site remains as friendly and welcoming as possible.

I'm sorry that Jenn has had to go through what she's experienced. I wish her all the best in her future endeavors.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I will not apologize for the lack of ethics this whole thread has written on it! Each section on this board has a purpose and this one was set aside for Personal experiences with breeders or other board members. I have seen very little posted here concerning any personal experiences with Jen Harrison's business. This thread has degraded to nothing more than he said she said. Oh who is the most almighty righteous! It is a poor example of what I believe a supportive ball Python community should be! I believe we are here to help and learn. This thread has no learning aspect about it. Know body here can prove they really "Know" the Truth! No one has the actual credentials on this thread to understand viruses and how they affect reptiles! (Or at least they are not saying/proving so!) If the moderators of the board do not like it when I state my opinion of the job they are doing it doesn't change my opinion of the job they are doing. If they believe my ethics are poor since I stand behind what I say, then shame on them not me. I would hate to deal with any breeder who won't speak their mind for fear of what others might say! Makes me think they have something to hide!

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Are you ever going to get a clue? Say no one spoke up about this, Jen sells the animals to 3-4 people they intern sellt he same animals to 3-4 other people because they cant keep them for some reason or another. Then BAM! look who is sick all of a sudden. Tons of animals!! Just imagining that makes me sick.. Did I or anyone else say it will happen? No dont think so. DO YOU KNOW IT WONT???